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Jet Fuel Prices WILL Be Climbing A LOT, and Soon

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Too bad you can't buy the diesel version here, if you can get 24 out of the V8 then you'd be sure to get 40-45 from the diesel. Your car is still a gas guzzler, if you'd bought an Accord and drove it in the same manner you'd get 40mpg too. Sure it's not union built, but the Accord is just as American as the 300C, probably more so.
Sorry, the diesel version has been around for about 20 years, it's called a Cummins. Thanks to the EPA it has becon much less efficient (14-19 mpg).
Also, the on board computers for MPG's are notoriously innacurate. The only true way to tell would be pen and paper math.
 
More excuses.......:

What is there to fix? There is NO fuel system, oil system, cooling system, and exhast system. That leaves us with wheels, brakes, an electric motor with a battery charger and converter. Batteries typically last approximately 5 years. Mine has 13 12V batteries which equates to approximately 20/month in additional expenses. The electric "magic" boxes has no moving parts so they rarely need fixing.
charging costs 50-60 cents for most utility companies to fully charge the batteries.

I am a realist and do have a regular car for long distances.

No offense Saab, but once again, it just goes to show that when push comes to shove, people really dont want to make a difference, they are just looking for excuses.

Of course, the obvious response to this is that if every American converted to this tomorrow, the US electrical power grid would collapse.

Increased demand on the gird would mean more fuel for the electric plants, which in the US mostly means COAL, and additional carbon emissions.

Battery powered cars leave a HUGE amount of toxic waste when junked. If you create more toxic waste and burn coal at at plant 500 miles away to power your car you haven't solved anything, you've just dumped your mess on someone else.

Battery powered electric cars are a "feel good" non-solution, not an practical, multi-tiered integrated solution.
 

Good articles Ridethelighting,

I think we're near peak oil that is for sure. I do admit that we could be getting ahead of ourselves with these prices going up so fast so soon. They're definitely slowing US consumption and may be doing the same to other countries that also don't subsidize that heavily the oil price.

Even though demand is rising there is less export oil available to importers like the U.S. because of the countries like Saudi, Russia, Qatar, UAE increasing their internal usage of the oil and exporting less. This is called the Export Land Model. I think this is the main reason for the price rises.

Is there a lot more oil coming online in the next few years? Yes. Will it be the 3-4 ANWR's needed every year to just keep oil production level? Maybe. Will we maybe eek out a gain in oil production for a couple more years with more than 4 Alaska National Wildlife Reserves added every year for a while? Maybe.

Some forecasts say 2012 or later before we really decline. A lot depends on Saudi and Russia. Both appear to be declining which could be bad and mean the declines begin now.

We'll find out in the coming months to years. Let's pray and hope for the best.

Let's hope the price stays above $100 though but in the low $100's so alternatives are still encouraged to bring about a better future. Let's also hope we have some more good years left. Good luck major airlines. One of you will be a casualty in my opinion. Let's hope your loss will precede better times for our industry and country.

Jet
 
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Hi!

This is it. Peak Oil is here now. I think the fractionals are looking better and better.

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/stories/2007/02/20/0220bizoil.html

QUOTE]
Relentless economic pressures will send oil — now selling for just under $60 a barrel — steadily toward the stratosphere, Hamilton said. "If Saudi Arabia is in decline, then oil is way too cheap."

Saudi Arabia, the Elephant in the closet of oil production, is in decline. GM/Ford/Chrysler better pull out all the stops in getting fuel efficient vehicles and/or alternative fuel vehicles in showrooms NOW, or one or more of them is going Chapter 7.

cliff
LRD[/quote]

OOps, FLOPS just fired 200 people in part due to high fuel costs.
 
interesting article..no reason for these high prices

Oil rises despite falling demand


Oil prices moved higher Wednesday despite a stronger dollar and signs that U.S. demand for oil products is waning in light of a slumping economy and record prices.
Oil fell nearly $3 earlier in the day, but rebounded after Morgan Stanley's co-head of global economics, Richard Berner, said crude prices could easily reach $150 a barrel this year, and that high prices will not be enough to curb demand in developing countries.
"It seems that these big banks are driving oil prices, where instead it used to be the other way around," said Alaron Trading senior market analyst Phil Flynn.
As the U.S. economy has deteriorated in the past six months, many investors have engaged in speculative trading of commodities such as oil to serve as a hedge against a generally weakened dollar. Banks' predictions of rising prices only gives credence to oil traders that their investment will deliver a strong return.
Light, sweet crude oil for July delivery rose $2.18 to settle at $131.03 on the New York Mercantile Exchange. The contract fell $3.34 Tuesday, and was about $4 off its all-time high of $135.09 a barrel, which it hit last Thursday.
Slumping demand takes prices off highs
Traditionally, there is a run-up of crude oil future purchases just prior to Memorial Day as traders anticipate a strong start to the summer driving season. But since forecasts by motorist group AAA and Delloite and Touche both expected decreased travel this past holiday weekend, analysts said lower gasoline demand in the United States may finally be catching up to record oil prices.
"There is a very limited demand for fuel oil in the U.S.," said Stephen Schork, editor of energy industry newsletter The Schork Report. "Consumers are responding to high prices, which makes the rapid rise in crude oil of the last few weeks hard to sell."
Though actual numbers for Memorial Day travel will not be known for some time, evidence is pointing to fewer Americans driving due to high gas prices.
The national average price for retail gas rose 0.7 cent a gallon to $3.944 Wednesday, marking the 21st straight record, according to AAA.
The U.S. Department of Transportation said Monday that Americans drove 11 billion miles less in March 2008 than a year earlier, marking the first time that estimated March travel on public roads fell since 1979. That 4.3% decline is the sharpest year-on-year drop for any month in the history of the agency's reporting, which dates back to 1942.
According to the Energy Information Administration (EIA), a unit of the U.S. Department of Energy, gasoline demand has fallen 0.6% so far in 2008. The trend began in October 2007, and gas consumption has trailed year-ago levels in every month since, except for a very slight bump up in November. As a result, the EIA is forecasting the first year-over-year decline in U.S. gasoline demand since 1991.
"The forecast for a decline in gasoline demand is a function of prices and also lower economic growth," said EIA spokesman Jonathan Cogan.
MasterCard (MA) SpendingPulse, which reports on national retail gasoline sales based on aggregate sales activity in the company's payments network, paints an even bleaker picture for gasoline demand. The report shows the four-week average for U.S. gasoline demand down 6.3% year-over year for the week ending May 23, representing the 15th-straight week in which that measure has been in negative territory. The data couples the company's credit card sales with estimates for all other payment forms, including cash and check.
"Consumer behavior has changed dramatically this spring," said MasterCard SpendingPulse vice president Michael McNamara. "We haven't seen the spring increase that we normally do."
McNamara said one indicative trend can be found in Americans spending less on gas heading into weekends than going into the work week. He said that suggests people are cutting back on discretionary driving, while still fueling up for non-discretionary purposes.
Not just gas
Other oil-based products are also experiencing declining U.S. demand, such as jet fuel, heating oil, diesel and propane. The EIA expects demand for all finished petroleum products to fall in the United States in 2008.
Some Americans are replacing their oil product consumption with natural gas. Demand for natural gas is up in the United States, according to the EIA, and for those residents and companies that have the option, the alternative fuel source can be a cheaper option.
"Industries that can burn it are maxing out their natural gas production, since it is is cheap relative to the other commodities," said Schork. Schork noted that demand was so high this past winter, that suppliers are having trouble refilling reserves.
Foreign demand may catch up with U.S. soon
Although demand for oil products in foreign countries has steadily risen throughout 2008, that may soon change due to continually escalating prices.
Some analysts, such as Morgan Stanley's Berner, say high prices will not affect oil consumption abroad, since many foreign countries' governments subsidize oil prices for their residents. But other analysts think foreign demand will soon fall off as well.
"We're already seeing some developing countries lift their price curbs, and eventually other countries are gong to have to pass on these high prices," said Flynn. "People underestimate what kind of effect high prices are going to have there."


http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1595005#post1595005
 
Of course, the obvious response to this is that if every American converted to this tomorrow, the US electrical power grid would collapse.

Increased demand on the gird would mean more fuel for the electric plants, which in the US mostly means COAL, and additional carbon emissions.

Battery powered cars leave a HUGE amount of toxic waste when junked. If you create more toxic waste and burn coal at at plant 500 miles away to power your car you haven't solved anything, you've just dumped your mess on someone else.

Battery powered electric cars are a "feel good" non-solution, not an practical, multi-tiered integrated solution.

Solar panels alone or panels with wind turbines can recharge your car easily once installed thereby negagting all your excuses above (and batteries can be recycled).

NEXT.....
 
I think this is important for people to see that Gordon Brown appears to believe we're close to peak oil.

Do you think the British Prime Minister might have better information than you or I?

British PM warns of global oil 'shock'
British Prime Minister Gordon Brown warned Wednesday that the world faced an era-defining oil "shock" that required urgent action, as European leaders struggled to contain growing protests over soaring fuel prices.
"It is now understood that a global shock on this scale requires global solutions," Brown wrote in The Guardian newspaper.
Here is a quote from Brown's opinion piece in The Guardian:
British Prime Minister Gordon Brown wrote:
.The cause of rising prices is clear: growing demand and too little supply to meet it both now and - perhaps of even greater significance - in the future.

Gordon Brown doesn't believe it's the speculators running the price up!

One good thing about Brown talking like this: Alternatives are sure to get going.....
Let's hope!!

Jet
 
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A Must Read From:
The Oil Drum-Europe:
Why oil costs over $120 per barrel
LINK: http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/4007#more

This is a great explanation of why oil prices have REALLY RISEN.

These geologists/experts leave no stone unturned in their analysis.

They talk about Energy Returned on Energy Invested, decline in current fields, new capacity additions, spare capacity, peak exports and the export land model, the falling dollar, and how subsidies in some countries distort the market.

Become informed,
Jet

Y2K, Peak Oil, 2012 its alll the same............
 
Y2K, Peak Oil, 2012 its alll the same............

I guess your 2012 reference is regarding the Mayan Long Count Calender cycle changing? 20 years of troubled times followed by?

It is actually pretty interesting considering the widow for peak oil predictions.

Y2K......not so much.
 
Solar panels alone or panels with wind turbines can recharge your car easily once installed thereby negagting all your excuses above (and batteries can be recycled).

NEXT.....


I see. So if you live in the 1/2 two 2/3 rds of the country that can't reliably produce solar, you'll just hope for a sunny day? For wind power, the outlook is more bleak.

Not to mention the fact that solar panels are expensive (especially compared to coal or nuclear).

I like solar and wind. Do some research though, because while it's part of an integrated solution, it's not THE solution. Especially for motor transport.

Frankly, it's non-serious "lets just use magic fuel "X" talk that keeps anything from getting done.
 
It is very important to try to wrap your brain around to understand this very important NET EXPORT problem that is happening even before we've passed Peak Oil:

(Essentially it's like we've already passed peak oil because of this)

Here's a Wall Street Journal article about the AVAILABLE oil on the world markets and how it's decreasing year by year right now......


WALL STREET JOURNAL:
Oil Exporters Are Unable To Keep Up With Demand (most likely behind paywall - trying to find free link)
The world's top oil producers are proving unable to put more barrels on thirsty world markets despite sky-high prices, a shift that defies traditional market logic and looks set to continue.

Fresh data from the U.S. Department of Energy show the amount of petroleum products shipped by the world's top oil exporters fell 2.5% last year, despite a 57% increase in prices, a trend that appears to be holding true this year as well.

There are several reasons behind the net-export decline. Soaring profits from high-price crude have fueled a boom in oil demand in Saudi Arabia and across the Middle East, leaving less oil for export. At the same time, aging fields and sluggish investments have caused exports to drop significantly in Mexico, Norway and, most recently, Russia. The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries also cut production early last year and didn't move to boost supplies again until last fall.

In all, according to the Energy Department figures, net exports by the world's top 15 suppliers, which account for 45% of all production, fell by nearly a million barrels to 38.7 million barrels a day last year. The drop would have been steeper if not for heightened output in less-developed countries such as Angola and Libya, whose economies have yet to become big energy consumers.

Bottom Line: The price is going up because there's less oil on the world market and this trend is continuing. We're having to outbid the world for oil, hence the price goes up.

The BIDDING WAR will continue with the bids getting higher and higher as there is less and less available to import.

Simple Econ 101: Supply/Demand

The higher the price goes up the more money these exporters like Saudi/UAE/Qatar/Russia/etc. make stimulating their economies causing their internal demand for oil to go up.
Not helping things is the fact many of these exporters heavily subsidize the oil price practically giving it away free to their people!!

Nobody considers the oil exporters when considering demand but they're an even bigger player for demand than China/India right now.....

Jet
 
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I see. So if you live in the 1/2 two 2/3 rds of the country that can't reliably produce solar, you'll just hope for a sunny day? For wind power, the outlook is more bleak.

Not to mention the fact that solar panels are expensive (especially compared to coal or nuclear).

I like solar and wind. Do some research though, because while it's part of an integrated solution, it's not THE solution. Especially for motor transport.

Frankly, it's non-serious "lets just use magic fuel "X" talk that keeps anything from getting done.

I think you are the one who needs to do the research buddy. And take your blinders off.
 
In the article from the WSJ is a map and graph titled "SHIPPING LESS" which I can't paste in this forum. I've reproduced it below.

Wall Street Journal:
SHIPPING LESS
Top 15 Exporters of Oil with their EXPORTS OF OIL and their Gain or Loss in EXPORTS for 2007 compared to 2006:

1) Saudi Arabia
7,923,000 barrels a day with a loss of
602,000 barrels a day from 2006 (Saudi past
peak?- Many think so)
2) Russia
7,018,000 with gain of 152,000 (Falling
drastically this year even according to WSJ)
3) U.A.E.
2,548,000 with loss of 16,000
4) Norway
2,321,000 with loss of 221,000 (ikes-Red Sea
fields are way past their peak oil)
5) Iran
2,298,000 with loss of 165,000 (Iran is past peak
according to many- Do they need nuclear?
Probably!...
6) Kuwait
2,268,000 with loss of 73,000
7) Nigeria
2,040,000 with loss of 90,000
8) Venezuela
2,024,000 with loss of 158,000
9) Algeria
1,862,000 with loss of 20,000
10) Angola
1,707,000 with loss of 328,000
11) Libya
1,552,000 with loss of 22,000
12) Iraq
1,484,000 with gain of 47,000
13) Mexico
1,456,000 with loss of 255,000
14) Kazakhstan
1,193,000 with loss of 49,000
15) Qatar
1,011,000 with loss of 21,000

Wall Street Journal:
Net oil exports from the world's top 15 exporters- nearly half of all the world's supply-fell almost one million barrels a day in 2007, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration

Once again the exports are declining leaving us importers with less supply to use because:
1) Their economies are booming causing them to use their own oil and export less
2) Many of them are past their peak oil especially Mexico and Norway giving them less oil to start with.

Let the Bidding Wars continue.......

Please tell me somebody gets that this is a big deal, even as big as passing peak oil!? The WSJ says the trend is continuing and probably worsening because Russia is joining the countries with losses now.

PCL_128? CRXpilot?
Anyone?

Jet
 
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I see. So if you live in the 1/2 two 2/3 rds of the country that can't reliably produce solar, you'll just hope for a sunny day? For wind power, the outlook is more bleak.

Not to mention the fact that solar panels are expensive (especially compared to coal or nuclear).

I like solar and wind. Do some research though, because while it's part of an integrated solution, it's not THE solution. Especially for motor transport.

Frankly, it's non-serious "lets just use magic fuel "X" talk that keeps anything from getting done.

Facts don't get in the way of people that spew on about wind and solar. Solar currently makes up 0.2% of the grid and costs more than 10 times as much. That solar powered iPhone you want, ohh, it will require almost 1 million times the solar power of that Timex watch you're still wearing...
 
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Somebody. Smacktard or anyone else,
Do you get why my last two posts from the WSJ article are a big deal?

I really don't like talking to myself as much as it appears I do....

Jet
 
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WOW!!! The new inventory numbers are out. Scary, unexpected drops in crude oil and in gasoline inventories!!?


. Summary of Weekly Petroleum Data for the Week Ending May 23, 2008

U.S. crude oil refinery inputs averaged nearly 15.3 million barrels per day during the week ending May 23,up 214 thousand barrels per day from the previous week's average. Refineries operated at 87.9 percent of their operable capacity last week. Gasoline production moved higher compared to the previous week, averaging about 9.1 million barrels per day. Distillate fuel production decreased last week, averaging 4.3 million barrels per day.

U.S. crude oil imports averaged 9.0 million barrels per day last week, down 278 thousand barrels per day from the previous week. Over the last four weeks, crude oil imports have averaged nearly 9.7 million barrels per day, 579 thousand barrels per day below the same four-week period last year. Total motor gasoline imports (including both finished gasoline and gasoline blending components) last week averaged 1.0 million barrels per day. Distillate fuel imports averaged 250 thousand barrels per day last week.

U.S. commercial crude oil inventories(excluding those in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve) decreased by 8.8 million barrels from the previous week.
At 311.6 million barrels, U.S. crude oil inventories are in the lower half of the average range for this time of year. The drop was due to temporary delays in crude oil tanker off-loadings on the Gulf Coast.
Total motor gasoline inventories decreased by 3.2 million barrels last week, and are near the lower limit of the average range.
Finished gasoline inventories remained unchanged last week while gasoline blending components inventories decreased during this same time. Distillate fuel inventories increased by 1.6 million barrels, and are in the lower half of the average range for this time of year. Propane/propylene inventories increased by 1.7 million barrels last week but remain near the bottom of the average range. Total commercial petroleum inventories decreased by 9.7 million barrels last week, and are in the lower half of the average range for this time of year.

Total products supplied over the last four-week period has averaged nearly 20.5 million barrels per day, down by 0.7 percent compared to the similar period last year.
Over the last four weeks, motor gasoline demand has averaged 9.3 million barrels per day, down by 0.4 percent from the same period last year. Distillate fuel demand (DIESEL/HEATING OIL) has averaged 4.1 million barrels per day over the last four weeks, up 1.2 percent from the same period last year.
Jet fuel demand is 2.9 percent lower over the last four weeks compared to the same four-week period last year.

Not filling the SPR really helped!

And what demand destruction? 0.4 percent drop in gasoline usage year over year is a rounding error, not demand destruction, and diesel demand keeps going up!

I keep seeing these conflicting accounts from some groups that gasoline usage has gone down. The proof is in the EIA numbers. Not happening by much at all yet....
 
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Notice that after the VERY BULLISH inventory report came out that said oil inventories dropped by the most in 3 and a half years the oil price spiked up past $133 and then quickly dropped to now in the $127's?

This is VERY BEARISH for West Texas Intermediate Crude in the short run:) . Good news for the price of oil is no longer causing the oil price to rise. This is just more proof that the price of oil will be going down for a while to work off the overbought condition that oil is in.

Jet
 
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Too bad you can't buy the diesel version here, if you can get 24 out of the V8 then you'd be sure to get 40-45 from the diesel.

I'd love a diesel version! I'm a big fan of modern diesel technology. Unfortunately, for diesel to make a big rally here in the states, the feds will have to reduce diesel regulation. I just don't see it happening.

Your car is still a gas guzzler, if you'd bought an Accord and drove it in the same manner you'd get 40mpg too. Sure it's not union built, but the Accord is just as American as the 300C, probably more so.

I don't care where a car is built or where the parts are built. I care who builds it. If union workers aren't building it, then I'm not interested. Besides, the Accord is too small for my taste. I like bigger cars.
 
Also, the on board computers for MPG's are notoriously innacurate. The only true way to tell would be pen and paper math.

I've done the old-fashioned math. The OBC is dead on.
 
Investment tip:
Want to take advantage of peak oil and the global energy crisis that is developing?

Buy gold and gold mining stocks and mutual funds today or in the next few days. The price is bottoming and all the mutual funds are within about 5% of their 200 day moving averages. Gold will do as well as energy in my opinion.

My favorites:
Tocqueville Gold Fund
Fidelity Select Gold Fund
Oppenheimer Gold and Special Minerals Fund
There are a lot of other really good ones.

The time to buy energy stocks and mutual funds is still a couple weeks away.

Eventually like in the 1970's-1980's there will be a time to sell your energy and gold stocks/mutual funds. That time is a long ways away.
 
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The Wall Street Journal article contained some of the most important information possible in my opinion concerning the future supply and demand for oil and there hasn't been one response to it all day.

Is it too much to ask for someone to comment? Am I making too big of a deal out of it?

I figurerd it out:
I'm on EVERYONE'S IGNORE LIST!!
Can't blame y'all! :)
 
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I think you are the one who needs to do the research buddy. And take your blinders off.

I've done quite a bit, actually. The format of a chat board does not lend itself to lengthy explanations.

If you truly believe that all or a significant portion of motor transport in the US could be quickly replaced by battery powered cars charged by solar panels and wind farms, I will simply say that I disagree, as does nearly every serious expert who deals with this subject.
 
The Wall Street Journal article contained some of the most important information possible in my opinion concerning the future supply and demand for oil and there hasn't been one response to it all day.

Is it too much to ask for someone to comment? Am I making too big of a deal out of it?

I figurerd it out:
I'm on EVERYONE'S IGNORE LIST!!
Can't blame y'all!

Denial baby, denial.

Everyone here wants to think that this is cyclical, and things are going to get better.

They will eventually, of course. The questions are how long will it take (years or decades?), what will it look like when it's over, and how much pain will there be in the interim?

Remember, there are numerous "Peak Oil" scenarios; some catastrophic, some not so bad. It will probably be somewhere in the middle. Not unlike the climate change freaks . . . there is some truth to what they're saying, but when guys like AG constantly look at improbable worst case scenarios, they look (and are) NUTS.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst and all that.
 
The Wall Street Journal article contained some of the most important information possible in my opinion concerning the future supply and demand for oil and there hasn't been one response to it all day.

Is it too much to ask for someone to comment? Am I making too big of a deal out of it?

I figurerd it out:
I'm on EVERYONE'S IGNORE LIST!!
Can't blame y'all! :)


Jet, the trend is still up long term for oil, but I think the following explains some of the drop after today's inventories came out:

Crude oil inventories declined 8.88 million barrels to 311.6 million last week, the department reported. It was the biggest drop since Sept. 17, 2004 when Hurricane Ivan forced the closing of U.S. oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico. The decline was caused by ``temporary delays'' in unloading tankers, the department said.

Oil traded at $129.23 a barrel, down $1.80, before the release of the report at 10:30 a.m. in Washington. Futures rose more than $2 from yesterday's close to $133.12 a barrel after the report's release.

``The initial reaction to the numbers was a big jump,'' said Tom Bentz, a broker at BNP Paribas in New York. ``There are a lot of questions about the numbers, which explains why prices didn't stay up at those levels.''

Early Release

The Energy Department made its weekly supply report available on its Web site before the scheduled release time, Jonathan Cogan, a department spokesman said in a note. Initial indications suggest a malfunction in the system that allows the loading of data while keeping it from public view before the scheduled release time, he said.

``The report just doesn't seem to make sense,'' said Christopher Edmonds, the managing principal of FIG Partners Energy Research & Capital Group in Atlanta. ``I can't help but wonder if next week there will be a reaction and we'll get a large inventory build.''


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602013&sid=aKexHPkdLi04&refer=commodity_futures
 
``The report just doesn't seem to make sense,'' said Christopher Edmonds, the managing principal of FIG Partners Energy Research & Capital Group in Atlanta. ``I can't help but wonder if next week there will be a reaction and we'll get a large inventory build.''


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602013&sid=aKexHPkdLi04&refer=commodity_futures

Let's hope there is that large build next week. That would help the price of oil go even lower....

I think though, when a market is overbought like oil was that even bullish news will be bearish. The traders are just LOOKING for a reason to make the oil price go down.

They did the exact same thing when the price of oil was going up. Looked for any excuse....
 

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