Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Jet Fuel Prices WILL Be Climbing A LOT, and Soon

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrlich-Simon_bet

"The face-off occurred in the pages of Social Science Quarterly, where Simon challenged Ehrlich to put his money where his mouth was. In response to Ehrlich's published claim that "If I were a gambler, I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000" - a proposition Simon regarded as too silly to bother with - Simon countered with "a public offer to stake US$10,000 ... on my belief that the cost of non-government-controlled raw materials (including grain and oil) will not rise in the long run.
You could name your own terms: select any raw material you wanted - copper, tin, whatever - and select any date in the future, "any date more than a year away," and Simon would bet that the commodity's price on that date would be lower than what it was at the time of the wager." ... Ehrlich and his colleagues picked five metals that they thought would undergo big price rises: chromium, copper, nickel, tin, and tungsten. Then, on paper, they bought $200 worth of each, for a total bet of $1,000, using the prices on September 29, 1980, as an index. They designated September 29, 1990, 10 years hence, as the payoff date. If the inflation-adjusted prices of the various metals rose in the interim, Simon would pay Ehrlich the combined difference; if the prices fell, Ehrlich et al. would pay Simon. ... Between 1980 and 1990, the world's population grew by more than 800 million, the largest increase in one decade in all of history. But by September 1990, without a single exception, the price of each of Ehrlich's selected metals had fallen, and in some cases had dropped through the floor. Chrome, which had sold for $3.90 a pound in 1980, was down to $3.70 in 1990. Tin, which was $8.72 a pound in 1980, was down to $3.88 a decade later. [4]

"All of the former's [Ehrlich's] grim predictions had been decisively overturned by events. Ehrlich was wrong about higher natural resource prices, about "famines of unbelievable proportions" occurring by 1975, about "hundreds of millions of people starving to death" in the 1970s and '80s, about the world "entering a genuine age of scarcity." In 1990, for his having promoted "greater public understanding of environmental problems," Ehrlich received a MacArthur Foundation Genius Award."

"[Simon] always found it somewhat peculiar that neither the Science piece nor his public wager with Ehrlich nor anything else that he did, said, or wrote seemed to make much of a dent on the world at large. For some reason he could never comprehend, people were inclined to believe the very worst about anything and everything; they were immune to contrary evidence just as if they'd been medically vaccinated against the force of fact. Furthermore, there seemed to be a bizarre reverse-Cassandra effect operating in the universe: whereas the mythical Cassandra spoke the awful truth and was not believed, these days "experts" spoke awful falsehoods, and they were believed. Repeatedly being wrong actually seemed to be an advantage, conferring some sort of puzzling magic glow upon the speaker."

Unfortuantely, a headline that reads "Life on Earth Will Not End Tomorrow" just doesn't sell newspapers, and it's sad that these snake oil peddlers dupe others into running with their ball.

Jetti, I see you've been "immunized"
 
Last edited:
View this great groundbreaking Peak Oil documentary now on Youtube. It features Matthew Simmons adviser to Dick Cheney during the Energy Policy Meetings, Bakhtiari, Colin Campbell, Jim Kunstler, Richard Heinberg, Michael Ruppert, etc.

Peak Oil Documentary finally on YOUTUBE:
"The End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the American Dream"

You'll learn a lot from this great introduction. The experts explain the coming problem very well. There are about five new documentaries coming out soon.

Also crude oil peaked in May 2005. All liquids which includes natural gas liquids, ethanol, tarsands etc. peaked August 2006. Many including T. Boone Pickens, Simmons, Deffeyes, Bakhtiari, the Oil Drum blog editors, etc. think those peak amounts will never be surpassed and that the world has reached Peak Oil.

The declines very well may be about to start. Especially if the loss of oil from Saudi continues.

T-Bags,
We'll find out by driving season if Saudi can increase their oil production. It really looks like they've entered terminal decline. Do you not agree after you read the Oil Drum Analysis? If they can't increase production we're going to be in a world of hurt financially.

A lot of people are going to thank me because I'm spreading the word on this very important topic. Especially all of you that will profit this summer from the price rises if you bought precious metals or energy.

Hope you guys learn something! I'd love to have more intelligent, educated conversations with others on this topic,
 
Last edited:
Make sure you watch:
"The End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the American Dream"

After you watch the documentary above watch Matthew Simmons, adviser to Cheney, and author of Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy speak on CNBC.

Here is Matthew Simmons on CNBC with Maria last week on oil peaking at Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mRLGtTzd8E

Here is Matthew Simmons on Bloomberg talking about oil peaking at Youtube:
Matt Simmons (Bloomberg): Peak Oil Now, Oil Perhaps to $300

Jet
 
Last edited:
Well, if you've ever wondered how seemingly normal people get involved in Cults...

Since you're giving out investment advice (the unsolicited kind) and since you are incapable of comprehending the notion that you're worng, are you going to pay back the couple of idiots who take your advice if they lose?
 
From: http://www.streetsblog.org/2007/03/14/why-is-saudi-arabias-oil-production-down/

I could have written this article!

We still have three years and nine and a half months to learn who will win the bet between energy investment banker Matthew R. Simmons and New York Times columnist John Tierney over whether oil prices would be above or below $200 a barrel in 2010. Tierney bet "below" because he believes that over the long term, the prices of natural resources always tend to decline, and he cited a 1980-1990 precious metals bet that favored that outcome.

Simmons has looked deeply into the extraction of oil from underneath the sands of Saudi Arabia, and has concluded that their oil production will most likely decrease or flatline in the coming years. Saudi Arabia claims 25% of the world's proven oil reserves, by far the largest share claimed by any country. Those who have watched The End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the American Dream have heard Simmons say, "If it turns out that Saudi Arabia has peaked, then, categorically, the world has peaked."

With oil prices having fallen into the $50 range and now trading in the $60 range, for the moment it looks like Tierney's ahead in the bet. But the more important question for the worldwide economy is whether Saudi Arabia can increase its oil output in the years ahead or not. The Oil Drum has hosted a spirited debate on that question recently.

First, on March 2, Stuart Staniford noted that Saudi Arabian oil production has declined 8% during 2006, from about 9.3 million barrels a day in January '06 to about 8.45 million barrels a day in January '07. Simultaneously, the number of drilling rigs looking for oil in that country has surged - a parallel with the situation in the United States of 1970, then the world's leading oil producer, when rising rig count failed to stanch the fall of oil production.

T-Bags,
Nobody should listen to me. They should do their own research. I think I give plenty of places for people to research though! Oh and I don't want to be right......

Jet
 
T-Bags,
Nobody should listen to me. They should do their own research. I think I give plenty of places for people to research though! Oh and I don't want to be right......

Jet


Good, we agree. Nobody should listen to you and they should do their own research. And if it makes you feel better....you are wrong.

But when the peak oil BS comes out, you consistantly carpet bomb this site with repetative articles written by the same idiots quoting each other as "proof". The "bet" from the 80's is not the basis for my views, the bet is a product of Simon actually understanding the same concepts and seeing the REAL data on natural resources. So we share the same source.

What gets even more ludicrous is your contentions that because we are running out of oil, the price of copper, gold and every other mineral will go up... so let me get this straight, in your world, we'll all starve to death and no longer be able to drive cars, and because of that we'll need more copper pipes, wires and radiators? Or do you think a worldwide economic collapse resulting in a sharp reduction in the demand for copper will actually result in an increase in copper prices?:confused:

And when we all start starving to death, instead of buying FOOD or a little of your $10 a gallon gas, we'll suddenly decide we need more "bling" and buy lots of gold (thereby driving up gold prices)?

The problem with your "theory" is it is not coherent. You take stats and make absurd deductions from them. Unfortunately, this is rather common in the media. I'll give you an example. CNN had a headline that read "Hip Hop music results in teen sex". REALLY?! If only I had know as a teenager that I merely needed to play hip hop music repeatedly.... Think of all the money I wasted on dinner and a movie!! But the truth is quite different. While teenage girls who listen to hip hop are more likely to have sex, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MUSIC. They are both likely the result of something else entirely (latchkey kids, parents who don't give a sh1t...). So as is typical of someone who doesn't understand statistics (if you do, then kindly explain the peak oil model...), you make false conclusions based on irrelevant data.

I'd suggest YOU do some research of the other side. The side dominated by just about every credible economist.
 
With oil prices having fallen into the $50 range and now trading in the $60 range, for the moment it looks like Tierney's ahead in the bet. But the more important question for the worldwide economy is whether Saudi Arabia can increase its oil output in the years ahead or not. The Oil Drum has hosted a spirited debate on that question recently.


Oh the fricken HORROR!! Are you telling me that production went down, yet the PRICE DID TO? YGTBSM!!! And during that decline in PRICE AND SUPPLY, worldwide wealth (GDP) WENT UP!!! So you're telling me that we got richer, oil prices went down and WE USED LESS OIL? And now you're going to tell me I should be afraid because the trend could continue? GMAFB!!! Which trend should scare me? Lower oil prices? Economic growth? Less oil use? All three together ?
OH THE HORROR!!!!
 
T-Bags,

You couldn't be more wrong. I've read both sides. Have you? NO. You hold on to your, "The Market Will Provide" mindset. You don't understand scalability and refuse to read anything that contradicts your viewpoint.

You also don't seem to know what a precious metal is. Gold and Silver are the two main precious metals. These have always around the world been a safe haven for hard economic times. Why are the Russian, Chinese, and Indian Central banks, as well as many others diversifying a lot of their currency reserves into gold? Because it is a more stable store of wealth than paper money. As paper money inflates away, gold and silver will keep their value.

Here's something you didn't know: Copper isn't a precious metal. Wow there's one of the 40 things you T-Bags will learn today!

I think copper prices will go down initially as well as most commodities, unless the FED starts the money printing right away. The FED can not let Deflation take hold and will flood the monetary system with liquidity and has to cause inflation.

Oh and remember your NYT article. Read why it was wrong in many ways from the two articles below. I'm sure you won't though. I've studied your side extensively trust me. I was on your side of the debate when I first learned of peak oil. Once I found out the facts and when you know the facts, which you don't, you will come to believe the early peak oil scenario, I promise. Either that or you'll see it this summer, which is more likely, since you're so hard headed and blind to views not yours.

Two articles for you to read about the only evidence you've ever provided that oil won't peak soon from the NYT:

T-Bags you have to look at this short one. I'm sure you won't though.:

Selective Reporting does not Disprove Peak Oil by Patrick Ford
It is simply amazing how often journalists and editors can dutifully report the facts as told to them by their sources without bothering to try and understand the larger picture. Specific data, cited as “proof” for a particular theory could in fact be evidence for the complete opposite conclusion if the entire data set was examined.

When observing the entire graph (and remembering the 1960’s era production figures) it becomes abundantly clear that the Kern River in fact, is well past peak having rolled over January of 1986 at around 155,000 BPD. It plateaued for another ten years around 140,000 BPD before entering the terminal decline which it currently is in around 1996.

This information is entirely lacking from the article and obviously runs counter to the claim that peak oil (in any field) can be mitigated with a hearty dose of technology. The Kern River Field saw a progression of technological innovation over the 108-year lifespan of this field, each time raising production to a peak before declining once again. Each technology improved on the efficiency (early steam injection wells consumed 20-40% of the crude for steam production) resulting in more oil entering the supply yet the long-term trend remained intact.
They go on to show the data that the KERN RIVER field peaked in 1986 and is in terminal decline in spite of the Enhanced Oil Recover techniques.

Peak Oil: What the Media don't want you to know by Roger Blanchard:
For each isolated example they provide for a production increase in an old field, it’s easy to list multiple examples of fields that have had more dramatic decreases in production. As an example, the Prudhoe Bay field has declined ~1,250,000 b/d in less than half the time it took the Kern River field to increase ~75,000 b/d.

While it took the Duri field ~20 years for production to increase ~135,000 b/d, production from the Cantarell complex (Mexico) is likely to decline ~1,700,000 b/d in an 11 year period (2004-2015).

If the examples provided in the NYTimes article are so dramatic, one has to ask the following questions: Why has California’s oil production declined ~500,000 b/d since 1985 in spite of the Kern River field exhibiting its dramatic increase?

Why has Indonesia’s oil production declined ~600,000 b/d since the early 1980s if Duri is such a miracle?

Why has Texas’ oil production declined ~2,500,000 b/d since 1972 even as the estimated ultimate recovery for the Means field doubled?

On your uninformed economic rant about production going down:
The declines have just began. Oil just peaked in August last year. Oil supply has still been sufficient because the winter was warm reducing demand for heating oil and global inventories have been making up the slack. Demand and usage is increasing 4% a year right now and it is being met. 1.6 million barrels a day are currently being drawn down from inventories to meet demand. This is the largest draw down of inventories in 10 years. Can this continue? No. Saudi is going to have to increase production.

If Saudi can't then the world can't. You don't have a clue about Saudi's production problems because I'm sure you haven't a clue that 60% of their oil comes from Ghawar and that Ghawar is having problems. You haven't read the oil drum articles I've posted, Matthew Simmons' book, etc. You probably don't even know how much oil Saudi provides the world.

Go do some research and stop being an idiot on this topic.

I know you're not an idiot. I know you're smart, you just fail to educate yourself and read both sides. It makes me laugh every time I read your biased and unresearched posts.

I'd suggest YOU do some research of the other side. The side dominated by research, geology, the production numbers, and the facts.

I'm sure you won't though.

Jet
 
Last edited:
T-Bags,

From: Oil Companies Running Hard to Stand Still by Phil Hart

Something you don't seem to understand:

The numbers show the global oil industry implemented oilfield projects providing an extra 3.2 million barrels a day to the market last year.
This is a historically high level of activity.

Historically HIGH LEVELS OF NEW oil were brought onto the market last year! Great News!!!

YET for 2006:

Last Friday, the US Energy Information Administration released oil production data to the end of last year. Crude oil production was nearly 200,000 barrels a day lower than in 2005. Total liquid supply was flat. That's gripping news and should be enough to rattle any economist's confidence.
(Or T-Bag's confidence but he's too blinded to the real facts that he won't pay attention)

Why if all this NEW OIL was brought online was Total Liquid supply FLAT last year compared to 2005?? (Something T-Bagger doesn't understand)

. (BECAUSE) Many of the world's largest and oldest oilfields are succumbing to (DEPLETION); production is falling, sometimes rapidly. Two of the biggest fields, Cantarell in Mexico and Burgan in Kuwait, are confirmed in this category. Even the giant Ghawar field in Saudi Arabia, the largest discovered, may be showing the same symptoms of old age.

Despite enormous industry efforts, production from the largest fields and regions such as the North Sea is declining. Companies must now exploit new frontiers. They are taking enormous strides; into deep water off Africa and Brazil, remote areas of the Caspian and East Siberia, and also into unconventional Canadian tar sands. All this and more in a bid to shore up falling production in old heartlands.

The oil industry is running hard but only just managing to stand still. The size of discoveries in the new frontiers is falling. Depletion, the rate production is declining in existing oil provinces, meanwhile, increases.

T-Bagger, the facts say we're close to peak oil. I don't know what FACTS you're reading??????
Do you live in Dreamland or something?
In just a few years, the scales that are now finely balanced between new production coming on stream and declines in mature regions may lean more heavily on the side of depletion. Peak oil would then be behind us and our economies will be forced to survive with less oil each year.

What then for oil prices? Supply can no longer increase to meet rising expectations. Increasing oil prices over the past five years, and the subsequent fall in vulnerable housing markets, have pushed the US towards recession. Perhaps that move already has enough momentum to keep a lid on consumption. If not, prices will rise again to further destroy demand. Either way, the fate of the world's largest economy may already be sealed.

T-Bags sorry I'm being so hard on you. I think you need it though to get you out of Dreamland and back to reality.

Jet
 
Last edited:

Latest resources

Back
Top