Jet Blue Pilot Contract

[Falconjet]

Penalty

I have a very good friend who worked at JetBlue for about a month after initial training before before leaving on his own accord. He left to work for another carrier just a little over a year ago and as far as I know didn't have any trouble leaving and didn't have to repay any training costs. I'm sure the company or the guy's sponsers weren't thrilled but obviously they haven't had any trouble replacing him. So I guess you can get out of the contract if you want to.

And no, it wasn't me!

 

[skirt]

A contract, union protected or not, is only as good as the people behind it. I'll take a handshake contract with a guy I trust to be fair, versus a 20 page legal mumbo-jumbo contract with a guy out for his own interests only.

I think pilots might be gun shy because so many managments of past take advantage of their workforce at the drop of a hat. How many greivances clog up the system at your airline? At mine (United) the greivance mill is in full force, and morale is very low (there is a parallel). Many of these greivances would not happen if both parties used a bit of common sense and compassion (both sides I said). In my opinion, these sorts of distractions only cause animosity and productivity issues. However, if management is going to blatantly violate a contract, then clearly a union must protect its members. I don't see this ever becoming a problem at JetBlue, because the people behind the contract (management and pilots) don't seem to be the type of people who would take advantage of each other.

Trust takes a long time to develop, and only a short time to destroy. From all I have read and heard, the leadership at JetBlue (and Southwest) is good and trustworthy to the core and have no desire to ruin morale just to make a buck. Why have so few airlines been able to run the high productivity of JetBlue or Southwest? Because the troops don't trust their leaders. I am not familiar with all airlines, so there may be a few others that run a good ship. If so, that is great!

Trust is central to a smooth running company, and especially so in the airline industry. Let the JetBlue leadership serve as a positive example to the rest of the industry. Treat people right, build their trust, and productivity will soar. Treat them like juvenille delinquents and well....there are a few good examples out there of what happens.

As for David Neeleman going after the pilots in a few years because "that is what the competition does," I think it will be the other way around, the "competition" will begin to copy JetBlue. Who is trouncing who in the competition, if you want to look at it that way? JetBlue doesn't seem to do anything "just because the other airlines do." I appaud the philosophy of making yourself better and stronger, rather than trying to copy somebody else. I also applaud trust, something sorely lacking in this world.


Skirt
seen both sides

 

[jetblue320]

As for David Neeleman going after the pilots in a few years because "that is what the competition does," I think it will be the other way around. Who is trouncing who in the competition, if you want to look at it that way? JetBlue doesn't seem to do anything "just because the other airlines do." I appaud the philosophy of making yourself better and stronger, rather than trying to copy somebody else. I also applaud trust, something sorely lacking in this world.


Skirt
seen both sides

Skirt,

You hit the nail on the head with the counter to "this is what the competition does". We simply apply the principal of learning from the others mistakes. It isn't rocket science, just common sense. We try real hard in fact to do things our way without comparisons to our fellow airlines. Why on earth would we want to emulate strategies at other carriers that have caused them to be in the shape they are in, regarding labor versus management that is? That would be just plain dumb. We apply the old adage "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

Our relationship with our management folks is solid and above board. In fact, we don't really refer to them as Management. That would be equal to saying Us and Them. At jetBlue, it's all Us, all of Us, if that makes sense?

See ya.

 

[yaks]

contract

A couple of things to think about. When I mention competition you have to remember that an airline may not want to cut your pay but the bottom line is, if the other guy is doing it cheaper and cutting into your profits (ie jet blue to the majors now) management schools teach managers to cut costs and you will become a number on a balance sheet. That is the nature of capitalism and your ceo's feelings will be trounced by his b-school training. It has happened before and will continue until we "learn from history" as was previously mentioned.

This will play out as pilots eventually getting ticked off because their careers will stagnate while the new upstart has fo's becoming captains in 6 months and while the captain pay is substandard at brand X it beats the fo pay at your carrier. This will eventually cause discord and you will want to do something about it. You may try to get a union but the union organizers will be terminated at the end of their 5 year contract and the movement will be quashed. You may try to do something on your own and you will be terminated at the end of your 5 year deal. Everyone will then fall into line for fear of losing thier jobs and in the end you will be stuck with whatever management chooses to stick you with.

(As an aside this is only one possible scenario, but the results will be the same. Anyone noticed the picketing SWA flight attendants around the system lately? They have good management also yet they feel strongly enough to demonstrate in public their dissatisfaction. This could be grounds for dismissal even before your 5 years are up and you have no recourse.)

Another thing to remember: employment contracts are all about protecting the company and have nothing to do with the well being of the employee. Here's another scenario for you.

Down the road the airline business hits a downturn and JB has to furlough. You the furloughed pilot is on the street and eventually gets another job. You may like the job well enough that you want to finish your career there. If JB calls you back before your 5 years are up you can be compelled to return to work and quit your new job. The company may choose not to enforce certain provisions of the contract but you have no recourse if they do because EMPLOYMENT CONTRACTS ARE ALL ABOUT PROTECTING THE EMPLOYER!

Any lawyer will tell you the same thing. I have no vested interest in this issue except that it affects the entire industry and is a real hose job for those uninformed or naive about the airline industry folks considering a job at JB. Ask yourself this: do I want to be looking for a new job after 5 or 10 years at this one? If you can't answer unequivocally yes then you will buckle when it comes time to make the hard choices.

And don't forget: since your only contract is an employment contract which most likely contains a clause stating striking is grounds for termination, don't count on any of those RLA protections.

 

[skirt]

Re: contract

management schools teach managers to cut costs and you will become a number on a balance sheet. That is the nature of capitalism and your ceo's feelings will be trounced by his b-school training.

yak

Here is a breakdown of CEO's and their educational background. I don't think all MBA's are necessarily trained to trounce pilots, nor do you have to have an MBA to be a CEO. The backgrounds are interesting though:

Gerard Arpey- American Airlines
MBA- Univ. Texas at Austin

Glenn Tilton- United
BA- International Relations, Univ. South Carolina

Leo Mullin- Delta
MBA Harvard
BS Engineering, physics, applied math Harvard

Richard Anderson - Northwest
Law Degree South Texas College

Gordon Bethune - Continental
Advanced Management - Harvard
BS- Ablilene Christian University

David Siegel- US Air
MBA Harvard
BS Math/Econ Brown University

Jim Parker - Southwest
Law Degree -where?

Bill Ayer - Alaska
MBA Univ. of Washington
BA Econ, Stanford

George Mikelsons - ATA
no degree mentioned
began as a pilot and a manager of a travel club in Indy

Joe Leonard - Airtran
BS aerospace engineering Auburn

David Neeleman - JetBlue
attended Univ. of Utah
began as a manager of a travel group in Utah

I apologize in advance if I left anybody out. The information above comes mostly from each airline's website, and is only as valid as they present it. I didn't cross reference any other source, and I don't know any of the individuals.


Skirt

 

[jetblue320]

Re: contract

Any lawyer will tell you the same thing. I have no vested interest in this issue except that it affects the entire industry and is a real hose job for those uninformed or naive about the airline industry folks considering a job at JB. Ask yourself this: do I want to be looking for a new job after 5 or 10 years at this one? If you can't answer unequivocally yes then you will buckle when it comes time to make the hard choices.

And don't forget: since your only contract is an employment contract which most likely contains a clause stating striking is grounds for termination, don't count on any of those RLA protections.

Well, the simple truth is that if I have to contact a lawyer, the job is getting much to complicated for me. I am just a simple kinda guy who hopefully in 10 years, will be sitting on the back deck of my yacht, drinking a drink with a little blue umbrella in it.

As for the unemployed pilot out there considering a job with JB, that's a choice they have to make. But know this, we are having a blast and making pretty good bucks and are surrounded by a lot of people (bosses or otherwise) that all share the same common goals and attitudes. The choice is yours. I've made mine and have absolutely no regrets.

See ya.

 

[JayDub]

Re: contract

Any lawyer will tell you the same thing. I have no vested interest in this issue except that it affects the entire industry and is a real hose job for those uninformed or naive about the airline industry folks considering a job at JB. Ask yourself this: do I want to be looking for a new job after 5 or 10 years at this one? If you can't answer unequivocally yes then you will buckle when it comes time to make the hard choices.

And don't forget: since your only contract is an employment contract which most likely contains a clause stating striking is grounds for termination, don't count on any of those RLA protections.

It's funny, everybody thinks our stock options are "free". They aren't. They come with a little something called "risk". There was lots of risk when I joined "JetWho" prior to 9-11-01, I guess there is still some risk now hoping they'l keep me employed. There's just one difference; my stock options will be 50% vested after five years and 100% vested after seven. That makes me a lot richer cowboy than what I showed up as. Assuming these guys still keep doing their jobs. If they don't then I won't be any worse off than the guys hired in August 1988 and later at USAIR.

If they do can me, it's going to cost them at a minimum 6,000 shares to the guy (or gal) that takes my place. It just doesn't make too much sense to keep doing that, does it? It seems to me power of the purse is a heck of a lot more powerful than some contract. Call me crazy...

Respectfully,

JayDub

 

[justApilot]

So in theory the most senior guys(guys approaching the 5 year mark) would be the first ones out on the street if times got real tough at JetBlue. Or am I missing something?

 

[jetblue320]

So in theory the most senior guys(guys approaching the 5 year mark) would be the first ones out on the street if times got real tough at JetBlue. Or am I missing something?

Yes, if that's the way you want to look at it. Being one of the "senior guys" (29 out of 700) I'm not worried. Besides, if I wanted to leave right now, I am a free man. The only one holding me there is me. I was there before they had an airplane or an air carrier certificate and I haven't had a single moment of doubt. The past 3.5 years of history have proved what I have known all along, and then some! Besides, things aren't likely to get "tough" anytime soon. Have you seen the stock quote for JBLU this week? The only thing you are missing is an opportunity!!

Have Fun.

 

[JayDub]

So in theory the most senior guys(guys approaching the 5 year mark) would be the first ones out on the street if times got real tough at JetBlue. Or am I missing something?

Actually, I thought we were guaranteed a furlough in seniority order. Also, they have to pay us some amount of cash if they do that. I can't find my copy of the contract since I moved six months ago, but then again, I really haven't had to look too hard...


Respectfully,


JayDub