Jet Blue Pilot Contract

[Snoopy58]

Heard this today, and wondered if somebody at Jet Blue could confirm/deny/illuminate the following:

It was said that pilots at Jet Blue are on 5 year contracts that can be renewed or not at the company's discretion. If they don't want to renew it, it's their option not to, no explanation/reason/justification required. Someone whose contract isn't renewed isn't being "fired," he simply has "completed his contract" and that's that.

Is this accurate? The guy who told me about it had gotten it 2nd or 3rd hand, so he wasn't certain about the details. Clear implications in terms of job security & so forth, obviously, if true.

Not trying to start a rumor here, but just to get the real word.

Thanks in advance,

Snoopy

 

[avgslin]

CEO David Neeleman stated on C-SPAN that their pilots are on 5 year contracts. Since the company is only 3+ years old, no one knows if anyone will be let go after 5 years? We just have to wait and see.

 

[Redtails]

You're correct with the 5-year contract. But in that contract I signed 3 years ago, it also states that FOs will only be paid $43 and CAPTs $78 in their first year of service. So we already had a 32% raise in the middle of our signed contracts. I think these will be addressed soon as we have a couple of pilots coming up to their 5th year. I believe the intent was to keep the initial set of pilots who received their types off the bat for a term of service.

 

[jaxgus]

Contract I Signed

Recently jetBlue offered me an employment contract and I gladly signed it. Paragraph 1 explains the term of the contract and the original thread is correct stating the term is five years. Additionally, the contract stipulates the renewal of the contract, to quote, "Unless either the Airline or the Pilot provides notice within three (3) months of the Agreement expiration date, this Agreement will automatically renew for additional five (5) year periods subject to a revised pay schedule as listed in Addendum A to this agreement."

I am no lawyer, but bottomline the contract continues to renew every five years until I determine it is time to leave jetBlue; not likely, not until 60 at least.

Before the lawyers in the crowd brings this up, "the Airline" also has the ability to terminate the contract between a crewmember and the airline at the expiration of the contract. Ask yourself, why would the company include this in this agreement? jetBlue is all about productivity and "Bringing humanity back to air travel." If we have crewmembers who become non-productive and don't support our values, something which they directly control, the company suffers personally and financially. jetBlue is a family that takes care of its people. This clause ensures our crewmembers have an incentive to remain productive and not turn into "dead wood."

Hopefully, the quote above dispells the rumor we can be fired after five years with no explanation. The compnay must provide in writing that it is not renewing the contract. The only situations I personally believe jetBlue would exercise its option not to renew when it deals with a crewmember with harrassment problems, unsafe flying habits and who don't embrace our values -- SAFETY CARING INTEGRITY FUN PASSION. No compnay can afford the training costs associated with randomly terminating pilot's contracts just becuase they can. For the health of the airline, this clause is available as a last resort to ensure we maintain crewmembers who are here to build a great place to work, which happens to fly aircraft from Point A to B.

 

[Blue Dude]

The five year renewal clause is a fact, and jaxgus has it right: the airline could opt to non-renew a pilot's contract. However, even if a particular pilot was notorious for being "deadwood" (and I don't have anyone specifically in mind), it would be a practical impossibility to get rid of him this way. There is a section of the contract that deals with termination, and it's fairly comprehensive. If a pilot is really screwing up, then he could be terminated without having to wait until the end of the contract. If he's not screwing up that badly but really isn't desireable to keep, then in theory they could be sent packing when his contract is up.

However, I can't think of a better way to destroy morale and practically shoo in a pilot union. Word of a single non-renewal, no matter how "justified" would spread like wildfire and would strike at the heart of pilots' fears of working for a non-union airline: frivolous termination. Even if it's not frivolous, and merely the exercise of a legitimate contract clause, it would be a distinction without a difference. Every pilot from then on would feel the crosshairs on his back going into their renewal period and wonder if he's going to make the cut this time.

Therefore, I don't see anyone ever being non-renewed. If a pilot's conduct is bad enough to non-renew him, it's bad enough to terminate him outright. There's a process for termination that everyone understands and accepts. Merely sent packing after five years and not invited back is not an acceptable way, to most pilots, of ending an employment relationship or a career.

 

[yaks]

Pilot contract

This is a recipe for disaster. You may think the company is wonderful now and I think it is. But down the road, if you do not get rid of this onerous clause, it will come back to haunt you. Remember, you are not just dealing with your management. You must deal with every scumbag manager with an airplane and a plan because that is your competition and that is who your ceo has to compete with.

 

[jetblue320]

Re: Contract I Signed

Recently jetBlue offered me an employment contract and I gladly signed it. Paragraph 1 explains the term of the contract and the original thread is correct stating the term is five years. Additionally, the contract stipulates the renewal of the contract, to quote, "Unless either the Airline or the Pilot provides notice within three (3) months of the Agreement expiration date, this Agreement will automatically renew for additional five (5) year periods subject to a revised pay schedule as listed in Addendum A to this agreement."

I am no lawyer, but bottomline the contract continues to renew every five years until I determine it is time to leave jetBlue; not likely, not until 60 at least.

Before the lawyers in the crowd brings this up, "the Airline" also has the ability to terminate the contract between a crewmember and the airline at the expiration of the contract. Ask yourself, why would the company include this in this agreement? jetBlue is all about productivity and "Bringing humanity back to air travel." If we have crewmembers who become non-productive and don't support our values, something which they directly control, the company suffers personally and financially. jetBlue is a family that takes care of its people. This clause ensures our crewmembers have an incentive to remain productive and not turn into "dead wood."

Hopefully, the quote above dispells the rumor we can be fired after five years with no explanation. The compnay must provide in writing that it is not renewing the contract. The only situations I personally believe jetBlue would exercise its option not to renew when it deals with a crewmember with harrassment problems, unsafe flying habits and who don't embrace our values -- SAFETY CARING INTEGRITY FUN PASSION. No compnay can afford the training costs associated with randomly terminating pilot's contracts just becuase they can. For the health of the airline, this clause is available as a last resort to ensure we maintain crewmembers who are here to build a great place to work, which happens to fly aircraft from Point A to B.

Right on Jaxgus!

The bottom line is that no pilot at jetBlue (that I know of anyway, and I know most of the 700 of them) gives a lot of thought to this contract. What I mean is, they don't live in constant fear of it being not renewed. The daily routine mindset is that this contract is not being held over our heads or being held as a secret weapon in case it's needed. Now I know what some of the unioized pilots out there are thinking at this very moment. They are thinking that we are a bunch of naive fools who will be sorry someday. Well, the naysayers are entitled to their opinions, as am I. My opinion is that if we all stay focused on productivity and like Jaxgus said, don't become dead wood or a safety risk, life at jetBlue will go on for as long as we want it to. As for me, I don't give it much thought at all.

Simple fact: If you are worried about signing it and need to have someone with legal prowess review it, go for it. As an insider I personally wouldn't spend the money or effort. If you are really worried beyond that, don't sign it and go fly elsewhere. You might not be cut out for JB if you are that defensive before you even step on the property.

Fly Safe

 

[AlbieF15]

Without going into a lot of dirty laundry, we've had pilots fired at FedEx since I've been there 18 months.

Some of the firings were about some jumpseat issues that were touched on the boards. The union supported them, and they got their jobs back. However, many of us suspected all this was "posturing" by both sides and figured the guys would be rehired. In any case--they were and life resumes...

Another pilot I saw upgrading to A300 captain during my initial training has been terminated according to scuttlebutt. I'm sure the union will make sure this captain has every legal defense available, however...if the company has a justifiable reason then the union will have to accept the outcome.

I look at a union like a good attorney...there to make sure your RIGHTS are protected in court. However--if you have problems getting the job done or some kind of issues complying with company guidance, a union doesn't guarantee you would keep your job. You still have to do your job professionally and safely along the way...

Hopefully...if you have an ALPA chapter, if you are a "problem child" your local professional standards guys can give you the mentoring and instruction you need to do your job properly. It seems to me the union has a vested interest in representing good employees, and does not want to waste all its time and resources protecting the bottom 5% who create problems.

I can't speak for JetBlue, but it does seem Al Spain, Lanny McAndrew, etc have tried to start with a clean slate and treat their employees fairly from the get-go. Over time perhaps relationships will go south between pilots and mgt, but I don't think you have to walk in the door going "well, they were B@stards at US Air, they were B@stards at MESA (or wherever), and I know these guys will nail me too". Until there are problems, why not give these guys the benefit of the doubt? They gave a pay raise days after 9/11, distribute profit sharing checks every year, and thus far have done everything they said they would do for the pilot force. Why punish these guys who seem to be trying to get it right for other's mistakes? It sort of reminds me of the bitter ex-wife or ex-husband who punishes the new spouse for actions he/she never took!

Just my 2 cents....and as always...I may be wrong.

 

[jetblue320]

I can't speak for JetBlue, but it does seem Al Spain, Lanny McAndrew, etc have tried to start with a clean slate and treat their employees fairly from the get-go. Over time perhaps relationships will go south between pilots and mgt, but I don't think you have to walk in the door going "well, they were B@stards at US Air, they were B@stards at MESA (or wherever), and I know these guys will nail me too". Until there are problems, why not give these guys the benefit of the doubt? They gave a pay raise days after 9/11, distribute profit sharing checks every year, and thus far have done everything they said they would do for the pilot force. Why punish these guys who seem to be trying to get it right for other's mistakes? It sort of reminds me of the bitter ex-wife or ex-husband who punishes the new spouse for actions he/she never took!

Just my 2 cents....and as always...I may be wrong.

Albie,

another right on to you too! Al Spain, et al, have never given us any reason to doubt them. These are honorable men, without a doubt. So until that day comes (and we all hope it doesn't, and "I" know it won't) we won't cross that bridge of needing someone else fight our battles for us. Truth is, there are no battles, at least not any big ones. And there are hundreds of us at JB aimed at keeping it that way!

Thanks for the 2 cents worth!

 

[FSB99]

i'm curious, though. i guess, since the contract is a 5 year term, then a pilot is unable to resign of his own accord during those 5 years? or, if he does choose to leave, what's the penalty for breaking the contract?

 

[Falconjet]

Penalty

I have a very good friend who worked at JetBlue for about a month after initial training before before leaving on his own accord. He left to work for another carrier just a little over a year ago and as far as I know didn't have any trouble leaving and didn't have to repay any training costs. I'm sure the company or the guy's sponsers weren't thrilled but obviously they haven't had any trouble replacing him. So I guess you can get out of the contract if you want to.

And no, it wasn't me!

 

[skirt]

A contract, union protected or not, is only as good as the people behind it. I'll take a handshake contract with a guy I trust to be fair, versus a 20 page legal mumbo-jumbo contract with a guy out for his own interests only.

I think pilots might be gun shy because so many managments of past take advantage of their workforce at the drop of a hat. How many greivances clog up the system at your airline? At mine (United) the greivance mill is in full force, and morale is very low (there is a parallel). Many of these greivances would not happen if both parties used a bit of common sense and compassion (both sides I said). In my opinion, these sorts of distractions only cause animosity and productivity issues. However, if management is going to blatantly violate a contract, then clearly a union must protect its members. I don't see this ever becoming a problem at JetBlue, because the people behind the contract (management and pilots) don't seem to be the type of people who would take advantage of each other.

Trust takes a long time to develop, and only a short time to destroy. From all I have read and heard, the leadership at JetBlue (and Southwest) is good and trustworthy to the core and have no desire to ruin morale just to make a buck. Why have so few airlines been able to run the high productivity of JetBlue or Southwest? Because the troops don't trust their leaders. I am not familiar with all airlines, so there may be a few others that run a good ship. If so, that is great!

Trust is central to a smooth running company, and especially so in the airline industry. Let the JetBlue leadership serve as a positive example to the rest of the industry. Treat people right, build their trust, and productivity will soar. Treat them like juvenille delinquents and well....there are a few good examples out there of what happens.

As for David Neeleman going after the pilots in a few years because "that is what the competition does," I think it will be the other way around, the "competition" will begin to copy JetBlue. Who is trouncing who in the competition, if you want to look at it that way? JetBlue doesn't seem to do anything "just because the other airlines do." I appaud the philosophy of making yourself better and stronger, rather than trying to copy somebody else. I also applaud trust, something sorely lacking in this world.


Skirt
seen both sides

 

[jetblue320]

As for David Neeleman going after the pilots in a few years because "that is what the competition does," I think it will be the other way around. Who is trouncing who in the competition, if you want to look at it that way? JetBlue doesn't seem to do anything "just because the other airlines do." I appaud the philosophy of making yourself better and stronger, rather than trying to copy somebody else. I also applaud trust, something sorely lacking in this world.


Skirt
seen both sides

Skirt,

You hit the nail on the head with the counter to "this is what the competition does". We simply apply the principal of learning from the others mistakes. It isn't rocket science, just common sense. We try real hard in fact to do things our way without comparisons to our fellow airlines. Why on earth would we want to emulate strategies at other carriers that have caused them to be in the shape they are in, regarding labor versus management that is? That would be just plain dumb. We apply the old adage "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

Our relationship with our management folks is solid and above board. In fact, we don't really refer to them as Management. That would be equal to saying Us and Them. At jetBlue, it's all Us, all of Us, if that makes sense?

See ya.

 

[yaks]

contract

A couple of things to think about. When I mention competition you have to remember that an airline may not want to cut your pay but the bottom line is, if the other guy is doing it cheaper and cutting into your profits (ie jet blue to the majors now) management schools teach managers to cut costs and you will become a number on a balance sheet. That is the nature of capitalism and your ceo's feelings will be trounced by his b-school training. It has happened before and will continue until we "learn from history" as was previously mentioned.

This will play out as pilots eventually getting ticked off because their careers will stagnate while the new upstart has fo's becoming captains in 6 months and while the captain pay is substandard at brand X it beats the fo pay at your carrier. This will eventually cause discord and you will want to do something about it. You may try to get a union but the union organizers will be terminated at the end of their 5 year contract and the movement will be quashed. You may try to do something on your own and you will be terminated at the end of your 5 year deal. Everyone will then fall into line for fear of losing thier jobs and in the end you will be stuck with whatever management chooses to stick you with.

(As an aside this is only one possible scenario, but the results will be the same. Anyone noticed the picketing SWA flight attendants around the system lately? They have good management also yet they feel strongly enough to demonstrate in public their dissatisfaction. This could be grounds for dismissal even before your 5 years are up and you have no recourse.)

Another thing to remember: employment contracts are all about protecting the company and have nothing to do with the well being of the employee. Here's another scenario for you.

Down the road the airline business hits a downturn and JB has to furlough. You the furloughed pilot is on the street and eventually gets another job. You may like the job well enough that you want to finish your career there. If JB calls you back before your 5 years are up you can be compelled to return to work and quit your new job. The company may choose not to enforce certain provisions of the contract but you have no recourse if they do because EMPLOYMENT CONTRACTS ARE ALL ABOUT PROTECTING THE EMPLOYER!

Any lawyer will tell you the same thing. I have no vested interest in this issue except that it affects the entire industry and is a real hose job for those uninformed or naive about the airline industry folks considering a job at JB. Ask yourself this: do I want to be looking for a new job after 5 or 10 years at this one? If you can't answer unequivocally yes then you will buckle when it comes time to make the hard choices.

And don't forget: since your only contract is an employment contract which most likely contains a clause stating striking is grounds for termination, don't count on any of those RLA protections.

 

[skirt]

Re: contract

management schools teach managers to cut costs and you will become a number on a balance sheet. That is the nature of capitalism and your ceo's feelings will be trounced by his b-school training.

yak

Here is a breakdown of CEO's and their educational background. I don't think all MBA's are necessarily trained to trounce pilots, nor do you have to have an MBA to be a CEO. The backgrounds are interesting though:

Gerard Arpey- American Airlines
MBA- Univ. Texas at Austin

Glenn Tilton- United
BA- International Relations, Univ. South Carolina

Leo Mullin- Delta
MBA Harvard
BS Engineering, physics, applied math Harvard

Richard Anderson - Northwest
Law Degree South Texas College

Gordon Bethune - Continental
Advanced Management - Harvard
BS- Ablilene Christian University

David Siegel- US Air
MBA Harvard
BS Math/Econ Brown University

Jim Parker - Southwest
Law Degree -where?

Bill Ayer - Alaska
MBA Univ. of Washington
BA Econ, Stanford

George Mikelsons - ATA
no degree mentioned
began as a pilot and a manager of a travel club in Indy

Joe Leonard - Airtran
BS aerospace engineering Auburn

David Neeleman - JetBlue
attended Univ. of Utah
began as a manager of a travel group in Utah

I apologize in advance if I left anybody out. The information above comes mostly from each airline's website, and is only as valid as they present it. I didn't cross reference any other source, and I don't know any of the individuals.


Skirt

 

[jetblue320]

Re: contract

Any lawyer will tell you the same thing. I have no vested interest in this issue except that it affects the entire industry and is a real hose job for those uninformed or naive about the airline industry folks considering a job at JB. Ask yourself this: do I want to be looking for a new job after 5 or 10 years at this one? If you can't answer unequivocally yes then you will buckle when it comes time to make the hard choices.

And don't forget: since your only contract is an employment contract which most likely contains a clause stating striking is grounds for termination, don't count on any of those RLA protections.

Well, the simple truth is that if I have to contact a lawyer, the job is getting much to complicated for me. I am just a simple kinda guy who hopefully in 10 years, will be sitting on the back deck of my yacht, drinking a drink with a little blue umbrella in it.

As for the unemployed pilot out there considering a job with JB, that's a choice they have to make. But know this, we are having a blast and making pretty good bucks and are surrounded by a lot of people (bosses or otherwise) that all share the same common goals and attitudes. The choice is yours. I've made mine and have absolutely no regrets.

See ya.

 

[JayDub]

Re: contract

Any lawyer will tell you the same thing. I have no vested interest in this issue except that it affects the entire industry and is a real hose job for those uninformed or naive about the airline industry folks considering a job at JB. Ask yourself this: do I want to be looking for a new job after 5 or 10 years at this one? If you can't answer unequivocally yes then you will buckle when it comes time to make the hard choices.

And don't forget: since your only contract is an employment contract which most likely contains a clause stating striking is grounds for termination, don't count on any of those RLA protections.

It's funny, everybody thinks our stock options are "free". They aren't. They come with a little something called "risk". There was lots of risk when I joined "JetWho" prior to 9-11-01, I guess there is still some risk now hoping they'l keep me employed. There's just one difference; my stock options will be 50% vested after five years and 100% vested after seven. That makes me a lot richer cowboy than what I showed up as. Assuming these guys still keep doing their jobs. If they don't then I won't be any worse off than the guys hired in August 1988 and later at USAIR.

If they do can me, it's going to cost them at a minimum 6,000 shares to the guy (or gal) that takes my place. It just doesn't make too much sense to keep doing that, does it? It seems to me power of the purse is a heck of a lot more powerful than some contract. Call me crazy...

Respectfully,

JayDub

 

[justApilot]

So in theory the most senior guys(guys approaching the 5 year mark) would be the first ones out on the street if times got real tough at JetBlue. Or am I missing something?

 

[jetblue320]

So in theory the most senior guys(guys approaching the 5 year mark) would be the first ones out on the street if times got real tough at JetBlue. Or am I missing something?

Yes, if that's the way you want to look at it. Being one of the "senior guys" (29 out of 700) I'm not worried. Besides, if I wanted to leave right now, I am a free man. The only one holding me there is me. I was there before they had an airplane or an air carrier certificate and I haven't had a single moment of doubt. The past 3.5 years of history have proved what I have known all along, and then some! Besides, things aren't likely to get "tough" anytime soon. Have you seen the stock quote for JBLU this week? The only thing you are missing is an opportunity!!

Have Fun.

 

[JayDub]

So in theory the most senior guys(guys approaching the 5 year mark) would be the first ones out on the street if times got real tough at JetBlue. Or am I missing something?

Actually, I thought we were guaranteed a furlough in seniority order. Also, they have to pay us some amount of cash if they do that. I can't find my copy of the contract since I moved six months ago, but then again, I really haven't had to look too hard...


Respectfully,


JayDub