JB pilots file with NMB

[A350]

Rez:

How is JB management taking away "professional" status?

A350

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Cooge:

Ask anyone of our pilots who have been involved in an "incident" of some kind and they will tell you the support they received was way beyond expectations....

A350

Ask SB?

or

Remember CUN?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez:

How is JB management taking away "professional" status?

A350

Cleaning of the cabins...

The fatigue experiment....

No Code of Ethics...



Do you feel the jb pilots that want a union are being greedy or not realistic..... or both?

What do you think about not having representation on CapHill and at IACO?

 

[PsubS]

Cleaning of the cabins...

The fatigue experiment....

No Code of Ethics...

Cleaning of cabins---that horse has been beaten enough. You do or you don't...the management has not mandated either.

The fatigue experiment---actively pursued by PILOTS (2 in particular, one in charge of Flight Standards and the other on the Scheduling Committee) and backed by management. Approved by the FAA. Scientifically proved (read it and weep) that duty days that last as long as a dual transcon offers better cognitive reactions than a redeye. Period. Take it for what it's worth...if the test was unsafe, then get the FAA to forbid redeyes in the future.

No code of ethics---I do not agree.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Cleaning of cabins---that horse has been beaten enough. You do or you don't...the management has not mandated either.

The fatigue experiment---actively pursued by PILOTS (2 in particular, one in charge of Flight Standards and the other on the Scheduling Committee) and backed by management. Approved by the FAA. Scientifically proved (read it and weep) that duty days that last as long as a dual transcon offers better cognitive reactions than a redeye. Period. Take it for what it's worth...if the test was unsafe, then get the FAA to forbid redeyes in the future.

No code of ethics---I do not agree.

Pursued by a grand total of TWO pilots. And backed by mangement. That makes it OK!!!!

Did you ever look at the actual experient conditions.
Best case scenario. Not real world.

And to top it off the local FSDO signed it off but Washington went BS.......

 

[PsubS]

You missed the point. Regardless of who approved it, it is the management involvement that Res is so against.

Res thinks that the Alertness Management Program was a management failure. I say it was a foolish idea proposed by pilots (more than two, actually) and backed by management.

Yes, I did look at the study structure. It was solid--show me how it was not a valid scientific study. Give examples..Be specific, if you think you can. Bet you can't.

Again, show me how the program was a management failure and I'll agree with Res' proposition.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

You missed the point. Regardless of who approved it, it is the management involvement that Res is so against.

Res thinks that the Alertness Management Program was a management failure. I say it was a foolish idea proposed by pilots (more than two, actually) and backed by management.

Yes, I did look at the study structure. It was solid--show me how it was not a valid scientific study. Give examples..Be specific, if you think you can. Bet you can't.

Again, show me how the program was a management failure and I'll agree with Res' proposition.

All the pro AMP pilots went into the game knowing what they had to do to make the experiment work. If you know what I mean. Hardly an unbiased experiment

Now real world situation

Guy commutes on red-eye to fly a transcon turn.
Delays (deice,winds,fuel divert,mx) add up but hey legal to start legal to finish right?

So that 14 duty hour day turns into 16+

Or how about a transcon red eye turn. Safe?


But you know what bothers us. The fact that we have no say in the process. VC yeah right. Company decides on a whim that this is what we are going to do and if you don't like it too bad.

 

[PsubS]

All the pro AMP pilots went into the game knowing what they had to do to make the experiment work. If you know what I mean. Hardly an unbiased experiment

Yes, it was an unbiased experiment. Show me where it wasn't. I've got the results--you'll want to review the study. I can send it to you.

Still, Res's proposition was that AMP was management's decision. It was not. Show me how that is not true.

A better question--who do you think killed any further action on the proposed change of flight time waiver?

Ahh...jetblue management! Smart move? Sure.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Cleaning of cabins---that horse has been beaten enough. You do or you don't...the management has not mandated either.

The point is if you have an effective representation structure then when the company puts the word out to clean cabins the union stops the "offer" to clean. As jb pilots what would you prefer? An offer to clean or the issue not even brought up....

The fatigue experiment---actively pursued by PILOTS (2 in particular, one in charge of Flight Standards and the other on the Scheduling Committee) and backed by management. Approved by the FAA. Scientifically proved (read it and weep) that duty days that last as long as a dual transcon offers better cognitive reactions than a redeye. Period. Take it for what it's worth...if the test was unsafe, then get the FAA to forbid redeyes in the future.

The point is, when the company signs up with the Feds to do an experiment on passengers the union says no.

Fact is a union would have been able to provide a perspective on the issues....


In house is a step in the right direction, but you've got to figure out away to get CapHill and ICAO representation... JB management has it....

No code of ethics---I do not agree

Explain.

The definition of a profession is one that has a code of ethics.... No code. No profession.

 

[PsubS]

To put a fine point on it, you said that JB management was "taking away the professional status" by
-cleaning cabins
-the fatigue experiment
-no code of ethics.

I showed you that they
-leave it open...and I like it open for interpretation. Your milage may vary.
-had a cooperative part in the fatigue experiment, a PERFECT example of how to work with a group instead of against it
-I disagree...show me where any other company has "ethics" that are in place...

You make a post--now back it up. Don't just add explanatory text about how we need capital hill representation.

JetBlue MAY need a union. But not for the shallow reasons you so callously throw out.

 

[PCL_128]

I am keeping my 2.5% is a statement from old...how I am not a member of ALPA anymore.

ALPA dues are only 1.95%.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

To put a fine point on it, you said that JB management was "taking away the professional status" by
-cleaning cabins
-the fatigue experiment
-no code of ethics.

I showed you that they
-leave it open...and I like it open for interpretation. Your milage may vary.

That fact that it exist is the point.... we can go over the points or just search this forum....
At one point, I believe, it was written into the job description on the JB website...

This is a concern because JB management views pilots as just another employee group.. there is nothing unique about pilots. While this is correct when it comes to basic respect amongst all, when it comes to compensation for education, training and responsibility, it means something else...

-had a cooperative part in the fatigue experiment, a PERFECT example of how to work with a group instead of against it

To defend that exp. is embarrassing. That is not how to conduct a safety evaluation. What was the goal of the experiment? To see if management can change the flight and duty times? To whose favor? Obviously no one was looking out for safety or the pilots interest...

-I disagree...show me where any other company has "ethics" that are in place...

Company? The profession creates the ethics. I am not sure of any air line company that cares about the Profession of Air Line Pilots...

You make a post--now back it up. Don't just add explanatory text about how we need capital hill representation.

JetBlue MAY need a union. But not for the shallow reasons you so callously throw out.

Shallow reasons? Counter this:

1. Cleaning cabins. This is a major blow to the image of JB pilots and respect from their peers. You'll be hard pressed to find pilots from AMR, NWA, SWA, DAL and UAL who think pilots cleaning cabins is a good idea. Embarrassing.


2. Fatigue experiments conducted on unknown traveling public. Were FARs broken? Would the traveling public have agreed to to fly on those flights had they known? Embarrassing.

3. Code Of Ethics. The FAA has defined a profession as one with a code. It is quite simple, paramount and elementary. Don't fret.. if you read an airline pilots CoE it is quite a company and passenger committed document. Once read, professional pilots agree with it...

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Again, show me how the program was a management failure and I'll agree with Res' proposition.

What's the status of AMP? There's your answer.

AMP was like Age 65 and the FFDO program. JB voiced "our" opinions to the media on those as well, yet I cannot remember anyone asking me if I wanted to work until age 65 or if I was against the FFDO program. The media release on Age 65 read something like:

DB: "On behalf of all JetBlue pilots we are pleased that pilots can now work until Age 65."

Give me a break. Right now management speaks for us. Hopefully, not for long.

 

[PsubS]

AMP as cancelled by Bushy when he saw the downside...he slowed the entire process down when he came to the company; our Yoda and the director of flight standards were pushing to petition the FAA for a waiver/exemption before the study was even complete. Bushy stopped the whole process--that is management assessing the risk and taking appropriate action.

Again, the cabin cleaning thing is completely horse-beaten. It's your opinion. Ain't proof, sugar bear.

Hmmmm. A three man crew extending a duty day. Sounds rather like many a cargo operation out there, or even an augmented crew.

But you probably didn't know that they flew it augmented, did you?

Ahhhh...and what exactly does the FAA's COE have to do with...anything?

 

[coogebeachhotel]

AMP as cancelled by Bushy when he saw the downside...he slowed the entire process down when he came to the company; our Yoda and the director of flight standards were pushing to petition the FAA for a waiver/exemption before the study was even complete. Bushy stopped the whole process--that is management assessing the risk and taking appropriate action.

Again, the cabin cleaning thing is completely horse-beaten. It's your opinion. Ain't proof, sugar bear.

Hmmmm. A three man crew extending a duty day. Sounds rather like many a cargo operation out there, or even an augmented crew.

But you probably didn't know that they flew it augmented, did you?

Ahhhh...and what exactly does the FAA's COE have to do with...anything?

Yep knew it was augmented.

 

[waveflyer]

i never minded the fatigue experiment. i'm way more tired by the length of duty day and total days at work than i am by the amount that i fly in one day. but it is disconcerting that no union is involved in the decision process- considering it's line pilots who would have to live with it.

 

[PsubS]

Coogebeachhotel wrote:

All the pro AMP pilots went into the game knowing what they had to do to make the experiment work. If you know what I mean. Hardly an unbiased experiment

Yep knew it was augmented.

So, you still have not shown me how it was unbiased...do you have evidence?

Would you like to read the actual study? http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2006/00000077/00000012/art00007

And for your suggestion to do a redeye turn...that would be folly. And it was never suggested.

but it is disconcerting that no union is involved in the decision process- considering it's line pilots who would have to live with it.

Waveflyer, with all respect, could you forsee a cooperative effort between management and the pilot group to establish strict rules governing these types of flights?

In other words, (and to summarize the thread) does a union have to exist to negotiate an appropriate level of pay, work rules, etc? Or (gasp) could it be done differently?

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Coogebeachhotel wrote:


So, you still have not shown me how it was unbiased...do you have evidence?

Would you like to read the actual study? http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2006/00000077/00000012/art00007

And for your suggestion to do a redeye turn...that would be folly. And it was never suggested.



Waveflyer, with all respect, could you forsee a cooperative effort between management and the pilot group to establish strict rules governing these types of flights?

In other words, (and to summarize the thread) does a union have to exist to negotiate an appropriate level of pay, work rules, etc? Or (gasp) could it be done differently?

A union is absolutely needed in this industry. You must still be in your military bubble. Thats fine just wait.

Having sat next to the guru behind the experiment I got the full scoop. Enough said.

 

[PCL_128]

In other words, (and to summarize the thread) does a union have to exist to negotiate an appropriate level of pay, work rules, etc?

Yes, it does.

 

[Caveman]

Some of you are still missing the point.

There are serious deficiencies in regards to our 401K and LOL/STD/LTD that can not be fixed unless we have a CBA. It is illegal to create separate plans for any specific group of individuals unless they are separately organized. A350 or Blue Bayou, how do you propose we address those issues without a CBA?