JB pilots file with NMB

[StarChecker]

At least they fired VS though. That's a step in the right direction.

Was he really fired?


And if any of the no voters can tell me if the management team 5,10,15,20 years from now will honor our Flight Scheduling Manual and not change it to suit their needs OVERNIGHT via e-mail....then I'll abstain from voting as well.

Otherwise...we're hanging out in the breeze...

By the way...you guys like contract pilots flying our airplanes? Think that will EVER change without a CBA? Think there's a pilot group on the face of this Earth that would stand for it except us schmucks?
It's been brought up repeatedly...it will NEVER change... and it has to.

 

[JBPA]

JBPA:
You claim I am basing my decision on the rantings of one guy in the crew room, yet you are willing to vote because of one comment about money and toys in the crew room as well?

I didn't claim that. YOU did. OBTW, I could invalidate EVERY point of Dave B's predictable email. The JR and Neeleman references were simply examples. I literally have scores of examples of how our pilot group has been continually duped. Frankly, I think that we're easily manipulated and are being taken advantage of.

By the way you didn't answer/refute ANY of my questions/allegations so I'm having a hard time considering your opinions.

The company cannot legally furlough due to the agreement you claim isn't worth the paper it is written on.....and I dare say from their actions they took the high road and did what they could to keep everyone on the property. Certainly not the only solution and that solution isn't appealing to all.

Agree to disagree. I'd hate to be the one trying to collect my 'furlough pay' based on the loose language in the contract. Lawyers are paid big bucks to abrogate the terms and conditions of supposed enforceable contracts (ie our 2000 individual contracts). Could you afford to defend yourself legally? How about a -190 FO? Do they specifically have to pay us in our current seat? What if they offer us positions as rampers and we decline?

Again....more insults and claims that I am friends with management.

Insult? Hardly. I was being facetious about the pool comment.

Do I agree that we need improvements? Yes. Do I disagree with our VP? Yes. But we obviously disagree on how to get there.

So, how do you propose we get there then? I'll tell you, I'm coming up on 7 years and I've been going backwards. Yes, I'm getting relatively better schedules. But when you consider the degradation of the pairings that really isn't anything to brag about (see comment about progressing backwards). And no, I'm not a slave to the premium pay crack pipe so I welcome the reduced bid divisors, even if it's being packaged as some kind of benevolent gift from management in order to mitigate furloughs. Once again, if they have to furlough they WILL.

Our management has devolved into legacy-type management right before our eyes. They told us that they couldn't give us raises out of one side of their mouths while defending their own raises (100% in many cases) out the other side. What exactly has Chew done besides enhance company productivy (through crap pairings) while destroying pilot productivity. And JFK is STILL a horror show regardless of weather. He gets $1M plus a tax-free housing allowance worth more than 95% of the pilot's salaries. Do you think that Dave offered him that or did he NEGOTIATE for it? Hmmmm.

I think we have done well considering the business we are in. There are no guarantees in this business and there certainly will not be any under representation.

Done well? Umm, okay. Talk to the living-in-denial A-320 FO's about their current/forecast career progression and our payscale/benefits beyond five years. Unbelievably, they seem to be the most apathetic group. Ironically, many I have chatted with have no other options besides flying airplanes, and there currently aren't any upgrades in sight. No wonder we're our own worst enemies.

Wasn't our entire cultish system (Prem. pay, PTO, no sick time, etc.) sold on the basis of quick upgrades?

On an unrelated note, almost EVERY pilot I've talked to plans to PTX their vacation. Ironically, we lose money if we're sick but get extra if we work during our vacation. My question is: will the PCRB-III, executed by some castrated committee, consider PTX in the 'Blended Rate' du annee equation?

Listen, I respect your opinion and am not trying to change your mind. I simply cannot fathom how someone can discard a viable option to enhance/protect his career based on the random comment of some unknown person. Especially considering the undeniable history since the -190 was announced.

I'm sorry, but I find your sophomoric logic untenable.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Was he really fired?

Yes he was.

 

[A350]

JB pilots enjoy a 5% match and 5% profit sharing guaranteed....how is that not industry standard? Some have better, some have worse.

You chose to look at the contract pilots from one perspective...I look at it from another. We are not schmucks. Other airlines have half their route systems flown by other union pilots.....that is hardly comparable. The ExpressJet experiment taught management they couldn't contract out the experience (and ExpressJet is one of the best Regionals). They even paid the pilots who lost time. Hardly trying to screw the pilots.

Many things should change to the working agreement.....and I don't agree with everything management does. However, I am happy that things are slowly going in the right direction. Better to take small steps towards a goal instead of large steps forward only to take larger steps backward.

The distrust that exists between management and pilots at just about every other carrier is no accident. It exists because without it, there is no use for a union.

A350

 

[Bavarian Chef]

JB pilots enjoy a 5% match and 5% profit sharing guaranteed....how is that not industry standard? Some have better, some have worse.

You chose to look at the contract pilots from one perspective...I look at it from another. We are not schmucks. Other airlines have half their route systems flown by other union pilots.....that is hardly comparable. The ExpressJet experiment taught management they couldn't contract out the experience (and ExpressJet is one of the best Regionals). They even paid the pilots who lost time. Hardly trying to screw the pilots.

Many things should change to the working agreement.....and I don't agree with everything management does. However, I am happy that things are slowly going in the right direction. Better to take small steps towards a goal instead of large steps forward only to take larger steps backward.

The distrust that exists between management and pilots at just about every other carrier is no accident. It exists because without it, there is no use for a union.

A350

What's the goal? And who decides what the goal is?

 

[StarChecker]

You chose to look at the contract pilots from one perspective...I look at it from another. We are not schmucks. Other airlines have half their route systems flown by other union pilots.....that is hardly comparable. The ExpressJet experiment taught management they couldn't contract out the experience (and ExpressJet is one of the best Regionals). They even paid the pilots who lost time. Hardly trying to screw the pilots.

A350

I'm talking about the guys who fly our airplanes...A320's...JB tail numbers...on MX ferry flights...right now. It's happening every day.

The guys sitting in MY SEAT...delaying MY upgrade...delaying someone's time on reserve.

Someone said it at a Town Hall meeting...the only people flying airplanes with JB tail numbers should be guys wearing blue shirts...(not TSA)

A scope clause in a CBA would prevent the company from using contract pilots to fly our airplanes.

It's just one of many advantages.

 

[JoeMerchant]

A scope clause in a CBA would prevent the company from using contract pilots to fly our airplanes.

It's just one of many advantages.

....scope has worked so well for ALPA carriers.....:laugh:

ALPA is self destructing over the failures of scope.....

 

[J32driver]

ALPA is self destructing over the failures of scope.....

Thats because ALPA has too many mouths to feed. JBPA has just one!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Thats because ALPA has too many mouths to feed. JBPA has just one!

That is true....But APA has only one mouth to feed and scope hasn't worked well for them.....It tends to be "sold" for other goodies for the senior folks....

 

[A350]

JBPA:

I claimed that I made my decision based on what a pilot said in the crew room....and he wasn't an unknown. I know exactly who he is and I also know that he wasn't the only one who voiced that opinion to management.

You base your distrust about the "furlough" pay based on what? Has this been tested? This is similar to the contract language we all wanted in case of a sale, merger, or change of control. The company put the language in the contract and asked the union organizers to send it out to anyone they chose to render an opinion. When the opinon came back that it was enforceable language, and damn good language, some still shot holes in it. There are precedents in the world of law, but there are few absolutes. Absolutes in this industry are tales of yore.

Speaking of absolutes, I dare say that while you may have suffered or went backward in pay and bennies, everyone was going backward in pay and bennies with oil at $147/bbl. While the price has gone down more than anyone thought possible, now we have to deal with a possible recession. The upgrades the 320 FO's were promised evaporated with the oil prices....we were prudently growing until then. Management had to deal with what appeared to be a new energy environment and they acted quickly to make sure we all will have a paycheck.

Provided the economy doesn't tank completely, the upgrades will reappear.

While my logic may seem sophmoric to you, it is based on watching both sides of this equation for 22 years. I may not have the same opinion as you, but I respect your right to choose. Choose wisely, because in the end we are all JB pilots!

A350

 

[JBPA]

I may not have the same opinion as you, but I respect your right to choose. Choose wisely, because in the end we are all JB pilots!

Fair enough, cheers!

 

[Turtle21]

.. You are a shining example of why labor in the US has been losing ground. Your belief that if you are union you're good and non-union is bad.

Yeah, what you said!

Everyone knows it's "If you're ALPA its worst, and if you're anything else its better."

 

[Dave's kid]

Rez. is at United....at least until his furlough.....

You're right.

Hey Rez, sorry about thinking you worked for AirTran.

 

[starvingredtail]

...next he will accuse you of being me....That is his new argument....

I love his argument that unions are like apple pie and baseball, a true American 4th of July festival. Of course, he leaves out the communistic influences and does not show how these socialist habits are now going to kill the US auto industry. I think unions have their place, but whoever Rez is, he seems to be a giddy kid with some minor job in a union, and is so excited about when it his day to make decisions. Of course here on this web board he can practice for the big day by making us all want to stab our eyes out so we do not have to read his stuff.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I love his argument that unions are like apple pie and baseball, a true American 4th of July festival. Of course, he leaves out the communistic influences and does not show how these socialist habits are now going to kill the US auto industry. I think unions have their place, but whoever Rez is, he seems to be a giddy kid with some minor job in a union, and is so excited about when it his day to make decisions. Of course here on this web board he can practice for the big day by making us all want to stab our eyes out so we do not have to read his stuff.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I love his argument that unions are like apple pie and baseball, a true American 4th of July festival. Of course, he leaves out the communistic influences and does not show how these socialist habits are now going to kill the US auto industry. I think unions have their place, but whoever Rez is, he seems to be a giddy kid with some minor job in a union, and is so excited about when it his day to make decisions. Of course here on this web board he can practice for the big day by making us all want to stab our eyes out so we do not have to read his stuff.

So the jB pilots are communist for wanting a union?

How are unions communist? How are socialist habits killing the auto industry...

It is easy to throw out comments and labels.... it is something else to back them up with logic and reasoning...

 

[Bavarian Chef]

... he leaves out the communistic influences and does not show how these socialist habits are now going to kill the US auto industry ...

Yeah, making bad products that NO ONE wants to buy has/had NOTHING to do with it.

 

[lowecur]

Unions are fine if leadership/membership is realistic and puts the good of the company first. The problems begin when irrational individualistic demands skew a longterm competitive business model. Even SWAPA's failure of a new agreement (for how many years?), speaks volume's about priorities (the founding father's at SWAPA must be cringing) in this difficult environment, and sets a poor example for other work groups within the company looking for new contracts.

You don't have to just look at the auto industry as an analogy, just take a look at the way the US gov't is run. You have hundreds of Congressman all putting their districts ahead of the good of the country the last 25 yrs, receiving billions of dollars of pork each year based upon their pecking order within committee's. Then look at their loyalty to individual special interests.

We are the "me" generation, and to hell with everyone else. Well, the me's are going to learn the hard way in the next 50 yrs that putting individual voters, companies, and special interests ahead of the good of the country at any cost.... has a price.

So I say go for it. But if you elect officials that don't put the viability of the airline ahead of union, then don't whine when you're sending out resumes in the not too distant future. Remember, long term stability ain't free.

imp: ​

 

[Lebowski]

We are the "me" generation, and to hell with everyone else. Well, the me's are going to learn the hard way in the next 50 yrs that putting individual voters, companies, and special interests ahead of the good of the country at any cost.... has a price.

Good point--for Russ and other top mgmt to read and abide by.

As for the JBPA, I don't think this is a "me first" approach and I don't think it's a vote against long term job stability as you suggest.

Representation does not equal greed. And representation does not equal job instability.

Nice attempt at inspiring guilt and fear, though.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Unions are fine if leadership/membership is realistic and puts the good of the company first. The problems begin when irrational individualistic demands skew a longterm competitive business model. Even SWAPA's failure of a new agreement (for how many years?), speaks volume's about priorities (the founding father's at SWAPA must be cringing) in this difficult environment, and sets a poor example for other work groups within the company looking for new contracts.

You don't have to just look at the auto industry as an analogy, just take a look at the way the US gov't is run. You have hundreds of Congressman all putting their districts ahead of the good of the country the last 25 yrs, receiving billions of dollars of pork each year based upon their pecking order within committee's. Then look at their loyalty to individual special interests.

We are the "me" generation, and to hell with everyone else. Well, the me's are going to learn the hard way in the next 50 yrs that putting individual voters, companies, and special interests ahead of the good of the country at any cost.... has a price.

So I say go for it. But if you elect officials that don't put the viability of the airline ahead of union, then don't whine when you're sending out resumes in the not too distant future. Remember, long term stability ain't free.

imp: ​

Said by the insurance salesman. Please tell me where insurance salesman hang out so I go there and act like I belong.