JB pilots file with NMB

[JBPA]

I made up my mind about representation the minute I heard a pro union supporter tell a crew room full of pilots that he would rather have a union so they could furlough the bottom 300 and he could keep his high bid divisors.....than to keep the divisor low and keep everyone on the property.

Make up your own mind for sure, but if that statement wasn't divisive, nothing is.

A350

Caveat: So as not to get any thin-skinned folks' panties in a wad, I am in no way affiliated with the JBPA (other than upcoming 'Yes' vote and donations).

So, you make decisions about YOUR career based on the random rants of some clown in the crew room?

Smaaaaaaaaart. Not too surprising though based on some of the other inane logic I hear from people I fly with.

What did you think about the crew room rantings of that other guy named John Ross?

I heard him tell a crew room of pilots that earning $265,000 per year only yields too many toys.

I also heard Neeleman tell pilots during PCG-Gate that we should leverage our seniority to offset the cost of inflation.

Do you think that this company will not furlough folks if they absolutely had to?

Would we even have any say?

Are you afraid that Dave B. won't play pool at your house anymore?

Have you read the PCRB report?

Divisive? The imposition of the -190 payrates, the rollout buffoonery, subsequent token pay raises subsidized by Embraer, and the recent rob Peter to pay Paul Ponzi scheme were FAR more divisive than one knucklehead ranting in the crew room. Did you ask him if he was an interim JBPA member or if he planned on running? Seems like an intelligent question since only your career is at stake.

So, based on our egalitarian culture, when do you think the company will 'TrueBlueUp' our compensation package to be more in line with industry average? You think they'll do this out of the kindness of their hearts? I thought I heard Ross mutter that they'd have to give EVERYONE a raise if they gave the pilots a raise.

Based on your experience and background, and the fact that you'll likely be a career employee, don't you think you deserve a more comprehensive benefits package than a bag smasher? Well, we'll never have a separate plan unless we legally negotiate for one under an enforceable CBA.

I respect your opinion and obviously disagree with your simplistic logic.

Enjoy your mediocre career, because that's all we're destined for under our current arrangement.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I've heard what the JBPA supporters have to say and have decided that they have nothing to offer me. In fact, I believe that JBPA will do more damage than it will do good. So I'm voting NO by not voting.

Why not vote yes and ensure "they" offer you something.... you could participate....

 

[Dave's kid]

Why not vote yes and ensure "they" offer you something.... you could participate....

How about you worry about the laundry list of problems at AirTran and stop sticking your nose into every union organizing drive? How long have you guys been negotiating your contract? How long have you gone without an increase in your pay or benefits? How about that union of yours that sold out 100+ pilots so a few instructors could keep their jobs? Don't tell me I need a union. For all the reasons above and then some AirTran obviously needs a union, JetBlue does not.

Why vote yes? I don't see the advantage. We have a good relationship with management. I've seen our pay increase every year with a bigger increase than I would have received with a CBA. Why in the world would I want someone else to speak for me when I work somewhere that I can speak for myself?

JetBlue pilots are better off without a union.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How about you worry about the laundry list of problems at AirTran and stop sticking your nose into every union organizing drive? How long have you guys been negotiating your contract? How long have you gone without an increase in your pay or benefits? How about that union of yours that sold out 100+ pilots so a few instructors could keep their jobs? Don't tell me I need a union. For all the reasons above and then some AirTran obviously needs a union, JetBlue does not.

Airtran would be a lot worse off if there wasn't a union. Then again it could be allot better...

Why vote yes? I don't see the advantage. We have a good relationship with management. I've seen our pay increase every year with a bigger increase than I would have received with a CBA. Why in the world would I want someone else to speak for me when I work somewhere that I can speak for myself?

Seems relative.... there are allot of guys that don't have a good relationship with their bank account... unless they are top 5-10%, which suggest that is where you are at...

JetBlue pilots are better off without a union.

There is no career air line pilot employment that doesn't have a union. If an in house union is good for SWA pilots, then why not jB?

 

[BeachBummer]

You can not vote and that's your choice.
However in afew years when the B's aren't running the show any more this could/will be a very different place. Say now Russ Chew moves into power and he's a smart business guy. Does some shifting around makes a load of cash and decides that jetblue would be great to sell or part out. Your five year contract ends with a thanks for comming out and you go to the street. You feel you have been terminated wrongfully. You sue and quickly run out of money and now have no job and owe your lawyer more. Not so far fetched, look at the history of this industry.
I'd much rather have the masses on my side than stage a one man fight.

Health care... ever hang a picture and use a ladder? fall off? get knocked out? lose a medical? not under a doctors care anymore? can't hold a 1st class? can you go to work? have fun doin some b!t@# work in MCO and be thankful that your still employed. Oh wait cant' do that cause you dont live there and cant commute without a medical and JB doesn't fly where you live.

Atleast you will have a say in your wages and benefits rather than hoping for a handout when and if the company decides to "review" them.

If now isn't the right time then when is? The right time is often too late.

For what it's worth if we so much as think of furlough i go. I'm voting yes. I need faith in somthing that will be here longer than a 6-10 year CEO because i would like to spend the next 36 flying jb airplanes.

 

[BeachBummer]

Why not vote yes and ensure "they" offer you something.... you could participate....

Yes but some prefer not to and just to wait for the redistribution of wealth rather than to fight or work for what they could be.

All the effort put into this carreer and people are still willing to fight over the scraps... or not at all.

 

[Dave's kid]

Airtran would be a lot worse off if there wasn't a union. Then again it could be allot better...

I don't disagree with you on that point at all. I'm trying to draw a compairison between AirTran's management and JetBlue's management

There is no career air line pilot employment that doesn't have a union. If an in house union is good for SWA pilots, then why not jB?

That's like saying if all your friends smoke pot you should too. Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it the right choice.

 

[A350]

JBPA:

You claim I am basing my decision on the rantings of one guy in the crew room, yet you are willing to vote because of one comment about money and toys in the crew room as well?

The company cannot legally furlough due to the agreement you claim isn't worth the paper it is written on.....and I dare say from their actions they took the high road and did what they could to keep everyone on the property. Certainly not the only solution and that solution isn't appealing to all.

Again....more insults and claims that I am friends with management.

Do I agree that we need improvements? Yes. Do I disagree with our VP? Yes. But we obviously disagree on how to get there.

I think we have done well considering the business we are in. There are no guarantees in this business and there certainly will not be any under representation.


A350

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't disagree with you on that point at all. I'm trying to draw a compairison between AirTran's management and JetBlue's management

And yet both managements seem to lack the SWA effect. All airlines could gain from SWA type culture... I am not saying they should be SWA, but one cannot argue with SWA business performance...

Who would not want that?

That's like saying if all your friends smoke pot you should too. Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it the right choice.

Riiiiight..... but we aren't talking about recreational drug activity... We are talk about self representation. An experiment we have as a culture deemed a huge success. Self representation via our gov't is the envy of the world. The right to represent oneself is fundamentally American....

Look, there is nothing American about CorpAmerica and that includes jB, Airtran, DAL, UAL, AMR, ExxonMobil, WalMart, etc...

These companies want to make money and serve the shareholder. That is it...


The airmail pilots deemed unification fundamental in the 1920's and 80 years later you are still wondering?

 

[J32driver]

The company cannot legally furlough due to the agreement you claim isn't worth the paper it is written on.....

A350

You need to go back and read your agreement. The company absolutely can furlough if they want. The difference, is if they furlough, they have to pay us our guarentee as long as we are "available" to the company should they call us.

There is no economic advantage for JetBlue to furlough. THAT is the ONLY reason they haven't dumped pilots. Its all about the $$$$!

Dave's kid and A350... I'm curious what your backgrounds were prior to coming to JetBlue? Not trying to start anything... just curious.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

4th year E190 CA here. I will be voting YES.

I had a very good source in jumpseat 2 weeks ago who said we're overstaffed by 300 pilots but that JB continues to look for avenues to not furlough. He felt that this will in turn build loyalty in the company.

Now that JBPA has filed with the NMB, I wonder how much of a hinderance this will be in the ongoing pursuit of better pay and benefits... IOW, maybe management will wait for the vote until they consider any other improvements in our QOL. So thanks JBPA for that.

Additionally, pilots forget what happens when, say 300 pilots get furloughed. Another 150-250 will get displaced too-- you might be a 4-year E-190 captain now, after, you're looking at being a 4-year E-190 or A-320 FO... Consider that displacement when you pull the lever for YES.

I think JBPA may be well suited in the future, but right now the timing and mood is way off. You're looking to stoke the fire with a group of managers who've so far allowed an open door of discussions. Can things be better for us, absolutely. Can things get much worse for us once management closes that door-- YOU BET!!!

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

You need to go back and read your agreement. The company absolutely can furlough if they want. The difference, is if they furlough, they have to pay us our guarentee as long as we are "available" to the company should they call us.

There is no economic advantage for JetBlue to furlough. THAT is the ONLY reason they haven't dumped pilots. Its all about the $$$$!

Dave's kid and A350... I'm curious what your backgrounds were prior to coming to JetBlue? Not trying to start anything... just curious.

That is absolutely correct. However, once we have a CBA, do you not think that management will negotiate some terms in their favor in return for our improvements? You'd be naive to think we'll retain a no furlough agreement after this stunt.

 

[J32driver]

I had a very good source in jumpseat 2 weeks ago who said we're overstaffed by 300 pilots but that JB continues to look for avenues to not furlough. He felt that this will in turn build loyalty in the company.

Now that JBPA has filed with the NMB, I wonder how much of a hinderance this will be in the ongoing pursuit of better pay and benefits... IOW, maybe management will wait for the vote until they consider any other improvements in our QOL. So thanks JBPA for that.

Additionally, pilots forget what happens when, say 300 pilots get furloughed. Another 150-250 will get displaced too-- you might be a 4-year E-190 captain now, after, you're looking at being a 4-year E-190 or A-320 FO... Consider that displacement when you pull the lever for YES.

I think JBPA may be well suited in the future, but right now the timing and mood is way off. You're looking to stoke the fire with a group of managers who've so far allowed an open door of discussions. Can things be better for us, absolutely. Can things get much worse for us once management closes that door-- YOU BET!!!

There has been no talk of any further pay adjustments. JBPA changes nothing in that regard as of right now.

If the JPBA is well suited for the future, then the time to put it in place is NOW!!! 2 years from now when Dave takes his money and runs, and leaves us in the hands of the Chewman and JR, I don't want to look around and say.... "Wow... I really wish I would have voted yes when I had the chance"

I'm squarely in the "displacement" window you just described, and will happily pull the "YES" handle when I get my chance. And keep in mind... I'm happy at JetBlue, I generally like our management, and I want this place to be around for the next 30 years or so... BUT... I want a chance at medical and insurance plans appropriate to a pilot, not a ramper... I want a B plan so we have to stop dealing with the ERISA failures of the 401K, and most importantly.... I want the power to throw the BS flag and have it mean something when the company parades out the BS results from PCG III coming to a crew lounge near you!

Some of you guys are like an abused woman. Your man didn't really mean it the 1st two times he gave you a black eye.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I had a very good source in jumpseat 2 weeks ago who said we're overstaffed by 300 pilots but that JB continues to look for avenues to not furlough. He felt that this will in turn build loyalty in the company.

Now that JBPA has filed with the NMB, I wonder how much of a hinderance this will be in the ongoing pursuit of better pay and benefits... IOW, maybe management will wait for the vote until they consider any other improvements in our QOL. So thanks JBPA for that.

Additionally, pilots forget what happens when, say 300 pilots get furloughed. Another 150-250 will get displaced too-- you might be a 4-year E-190 captain now, after, you're looking at being a 4-year E-190 or A-320 FO... Consider that displacement when you pull the lever for YES.

I think JBPA may be well suited in the future, but right now the timing and mood is way off. You're looking to stoke the fire with a group of managers who've so far allowed an open door of discussions. Can things be better for us, absolutely. Can things get much worse for us once management closes that door-- YOU BET!!!

Worse? Probably not. Remember the other 10000 employees?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

That is absolutely correct. However, once we have a CBA, do you not think that management will negotiate some terms in their favor in return for our improvements? You'd be naive to think we'll retain a no furlough agreement after this stunt.

I wouldn't pi$$ on a no furlough agreement if it was on fire.

Is that your one shining example of JetBlue benevolence?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I had a very good source in jumpseat 2 weeks ago who said we're overstaffed by 300 pilots but that JB continues to look for avenues to not furlough. He felt that this will in turn build loyalty in the company.

Now that JBPA has filed with the NMB, I wonder how much of a hinderance this will be in the ongoing pursuit of better pay and benefits... IOW, maybe management will wait for the vote until they consider any other improvements in our QOL. So thanks JBPA for that.

Additionally, pilots forget what happens when, say 300 pilots get furloughed. Another 150-250 will get displaced too-- you might be a 4-year E-190 captain now, after, you're looking at being a 4-year E-190 or A-320 FO... Consider that displacement when you pull the lever for YES.

I think JBPA may be well suited in the future, but right now the timing and mood is way off. You're looking to stoke the fire with a group of managers who've so far allowed an open door of discussions. Can things be better for us, absolutely. Can things get much worse for us once management closes that door-- YOU BET!!!

If your management would be spiteful because you formed a union, then maybe they really aren't the management you thought they were....


It is just like getting representation in our legal system... if you are being intimidated because you suggested you might want a lawyer..... then.... you probably need a lawyer....

Airline and Corporate Managements deal with represenatives all the time.... this is no big deal and its how business is done....

 

[Bavarian Chef]

If your management would be spiteful because you formed a union, then maybe they really aren't the management you thought they were....


It is just like getting representation in our legal system... if you are being intimidated because you suggested you might want a lawyer..... then.... you probably need a lawyer....

Airline and Corporate Managements deal with represenatives all the time.... this is no big deal and its how business is done....

Rez,

Unless of course you buy into the cult. I swear I could hear DB crying when I read his email to us pilots. It was like I somehow disappointed my Daddy by getting some Piggly Wiggly cashier pregnant.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

Unless of course you buy into the cult. I swear I could hear DB crying when I read his email to us pilots. It was like I somehow disappointed my Daddy by getting some Piggly Wiggly cashier pregnant.

Does he believe it all.... or is it all part of the culture gimmick?

 

[A350]

J32:

That statement about a woman cuts both ways. I have been sold out by a union more than I have by management.

I choose to trust the people that run this company. They are not perfect and they will admit it. When was the last time a union admitted fault? I don't trust ALPA and believe it or not, continuing down this road you may get what you did not ask for.

When I accepted the job with JB, I knew what the conditions of my employment were. I won't go back now and complain about it in the environment we find ourselves.

A350

 

[Dave's kid]

The airmail pilots deemed unification fundamental in the 1920's and 80 years later you are still wondering?

You're kidding. You cannot compare today's enviroment to that of the airmail pilots of the 1920's. I know you will disagree, but the two situation are not related. You are a shining example of why labor in the US has been losing ground. Your belief that if you are union you're good and non-union is bad.

Union leadership has followed the basic principle that more membership is the way to go. Why you ask? Because more members means both more dues money and more influence. It's all about power and prestige instead of helping the fellow employee. It is rare to find a union leader that actually has the worker's best intrest in mind.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

J32:

That statement about a woman cuts both ways. I have been sold out by a union more than I have by management.

I choose to trust the people that run this company. They are not perfect and they will admit it. When was the last time a union admitted fault? I don't trust ALPA and believe it or not, continuing down this road you may get what you did not ask for.

When I accepted the job with JB, I knew what the conditions of my employment were. I won't go back now and complain about it in the environment we find ourselves.

A350

Unions are democracies. Corporations are not.

So if you don't like democracies then why are you an American?

It is a stretch but I say it to illustrate my point....

Are you happy with our democratic US Gov't? Are there corrupt representatives?

Despite all the flaws of democracy it is still the chosen from of representation. And the Best.

Recall at jB you do not have representation. No voice. Your opinion might be asked for, but it is apparent that it is not (that) valued.

If it is righteous for us to celebrate democracy as US citizens then why not as US pilots? Where is the disconnect?

In addition, we are only talking about representation on the local level... IOW between you and your management. And that is fine, but jB management doesn't write the CFRs: FARs, RLA, NTSB, etc...

jB pilots are effected by federal law in so many ways.... take age 60 for example.... you guys just took the law as written. Sure you could've created an ad hoc committee but how many times are you going to do that for each issue?

Globalization is going to effect you in so many ways... and not to be a part of the changes is crazy...

In addition jB is a member of the ATA. You could call the ATA a union for airlines. The ATA is the airline lobby group that speaks to congress. Why is ok that jB corp can have representation, but not the pilots?

As Americans you have the right to address your Congress, the very body that will effect your careers.....

 

[Dave's kid]

Unions are democracies. Corporations are not.

So if you don't like democracies then why are you an American?

It is a stretch but I say it to illustrate my point....

Are you happy with our democratic US Gov't? Are there corrupt representatives?

Despite all the flaws of democracy it is still the chosen from of representation. And the Best.

Recall at jB you do not have representation. No voice. Your opinion might be asked for, but it is apparent that it is not (that) valued.

If it is righteous for us to celebrate democracy as US citizens then why not as US pilots? Where is the disconnect?

In addition, we are only talking about representation on the local level... IOW between you and your management. And that is fine, but jB management doesn't write the CFRs: FARs, RLA, NTSB, etc...

jB pilots are effected by federal law in so many ways.... take age 60 for example.... you guys just took the law as written. Sure you could've created an ad hoc committee but how many times are you going to do that for each issue?

Globalization is going to effect you in so many ways... and not to be a part of the changes is crazy...

In addition jB is a member of the ATA. You could call the ATA a union for airlines. The ATA is the airline lobby group that speaks to congress. Why is ok that jB corp can have representation, but not the pilots?

As Americans you have the right to address your Congress, the very body that will effect your careers.....

When you write this crap do you envision yourself in at some grass airfield somewhere back in the early 1920's in a leather coat with a scarf around your neck standing on a soapbox? Should we just start calling you Big Bill Hopson?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You're kidding. You cannot compare today's enviroment to that of the airmail pilots of the 1920's. I know you will disagree, but the two situation are not related. You are a shining example of why labor in the US has been losing ground. Your belief that if you are union you're good and non-union is bad.

Sure they are related. Management wants to make money and is constantly pushing pilots to the limits and beyond. are you saying that doesn't go on in todays environment?

There is no pilot pushing.??


It is all about representation. either you have it or you don't. This is America.
When we buy a house we have representation. When we go to court we have representation. We we get divorced we have representation.

Union leadership has followed the basic principle that more membership is the way to go. Why you ask? Because more members means both more dues money and more influence. It's all about power and prestige instead of helping the fellow employee. It is rare to find a union leader that actually has the worker's best intrest in mind.

Again, you are talking about the democracy... is our gov't really that different? Yet I don't see a strong movement to rid ourselves of congressmen, presidents and judges...

Why is representation ok as citizens but not as employees.... especially as employees who happen to be pilots, operating on thin profit margins and a complex safety environment...

Are you saying the management knows pilot issues better than pilots? That management knows what is best for you more than you do?

 

[CFIT]

Rez,

You are truly a sick and delusional person.

If you really are a pilot, you're lucky the airman's medical doesn't call for a pysch evaluation.


Your mantra should be "if your not ALPO, you're a commie"

 

[Dizel8]

Obviously this will get heated, that is just how these things work.

Been at jetblue a while, seen a lot of changes, some good, some bad, well, mostly bad.

Since the revised contract of 2002, I have gone down in purchasing power, and medical cost have gone up, up and away. Today, someone who was a Captain under the 2002 contract, makes the less today. The longevity step is less than inflation. The PCRB showed what our pay should be adjusted for inflation, we are 10-15/hr below that. In addition, we are, even discounting SWA and the freight carriers, below average in straight hourly compensation, but let us not forget, that we have no retirement plan other than a 401(K) with a company match less than industry standard.

The PCRB report and the MIT airline study shows us to at the bottom in just about all areas, 401(K), trip rigs, duty rigs, allowable working hours, PTO hours etc., etc.

As for furloughing, there is actually talk that we might be hiring in the not so distant future, take that fwiw. Look at the bid divisors, it really never hit 70, consistently above, heck, look at December.

As for the JBPA, who is to say, that they do not negotiate similar to what we have now, a potential lowering of the bid divisor to keep from furloughing.

The company is coming out with guns blazing, terms such as "zeroing contracts, starting from scratch, against furloughing, potential raises but in laboratory conditions" are rife in their emails. Well, that is no different than the abusive husband who promises to stop beating his wife!

Reread the PCRB conclusion, reead the MIT study that JR has never seen and if you still don't believe we have something to gain from representation, than don't vote.

6+ years have shown me, that the company isn't about to live up to the promises given!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

You are truly a sick and delusional person.

If you really are a pilot, you're lucky the airman's medical doesn't call for a pysch evaluation.


Your mantra should be "if your not ALPO, you're a commie"

Why not debate my post section by section...

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I choose to trust the people that run this company.

A350

That's the fundamental point -- whether one trusts the company to do what's right or whether the company will underwhelm for as many years as they can get away with it. Now it is a matter of opinion of what the company thinks is "right" and for whom. I can only point to the PCRB, the PCG and the ongoing IROP saga as examples of whether the company really does the right thing.

It really is an important point. I joke about the cult thing maybe a little too harshly, but it ain't that far off in the sense that there are some that really believe JB management would not do anything to jeopardize or harm the career of a JB pilot (I know, many say they already have).

At least they fired VS though. That's a step in the right direction.

 

[starvingredtail]

Rez,

You are truly a sick and delusional person.

If you really are a pilot, you're lucky the airman's medical doesn't call for a pysch evaluation.


Your mantra should be "if your not ALPO, you're a commie"

He is really about to make me vomit.

 

[JoeMerchant]

How about you worry about the laundry list of problems at AirTran and stop sticking your nose into every union organizing drive? How long have you guys been negotiating your contract? How long have you gone without an increase in your pay or benefits? How about that union of yours that sold out 100+ pilots so a few instructors could keep their jobs? Don't tell me I need a union. For all the reasons above and then some AirTran obviously needs a union, JetBlue does not.

Why vote yes? I don't see the advantage. We have a good relationship with management. I've seen our pay increase every year with a bigger increase than I would have received with a CBA. Why in the world would I want someone else to speak for me when I work somewhere that I can speak for myself?

JetBlue pilots are better off without a union.

Rez. is at United....at least until his furlough.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

He is really about to make me vomit.

...next he will accuse you of being me....That is his new argument....