JB pilots file with NMB

[starvingredtail]

Quote by Rez:
I don't see your reply as convincing...



Quote:
Originally Posted by starvingredtail
Unions are like a governing body without the controls or rules of a government.

unions have their own constitution, by laws and admin manual.

The US Gov't has a Constitution and CFR...

More similar than not.....





Quote:
They can be explained as similar, but you know as well as I do, they act in their own self interest.
How do congressmen (politicians) and union officers (politicians) not act in their own interests? Do you expect a Delta Officer to act in a ASA pilots interest? (RJDC, for example....)




Quote:
In my mind, unions are necessary because they are the best system we have for the protection of pilots against indescriminate actions of management.
Just as our founding father wanted protection from the King.

Just as currently we have term limits on POTUS. Hence no more Bush and Obama gets a shot.

All democracy.. of the people for the people by the people...

Corny stuff I agree... but true...



Quote:
You are very pumped up on union cheerleading pills. That is fine.
No, I just value democracy a little more than the avg. American me thinks.... or rather I just practice it more.... call it a hobby...



Quote:
But to claim that unions somehow have the same status as say, our founding fathers, is off the edge.
No my point is, the FF provided the example of democracy for our gov't and over the years we have expanded it to other parts of our lives that has meaning and value, like HOAs and unions..

It is that premise that I recognize.... That in order to protect democracy on the gov't level, we should, as Americans practice it in other areas... It is an opportunity not afforded many people throughout the ages... more corny stuff I know, but why not?




Quote:
I hope we get the union at JB. Please tone down your stretching of history. It sounds very orwellian.
What is Orwellian about self rule, defending individual rights, self determination, and self preservation?



Thanks in advance for your reply....

Rez,
You obviously have a lot of time on your hands to throw flack against the wall and see if it sticks. I see this as a waste of time if you can not concede that unions can really rub people the wrong way because they are so easy to corrupt. If you want to keep arguing from the "pumping sunshine" stance, I can not stop you. As a matter of fact, I gave over 20 years of my life to ensure it. That is what I have brought to this debate. What have you brought except propaganda? You would be much more credible if you could admit that unions actually have a dubious history to overcome, and recognize that people like me recognize their purpose, and appreciate the sacrifice of some of its officers, but still do not jump up and down like you do pandering to be in its higher offices. The Orwellian facet of your argument comes from the way you are recreating the past by proclaiming that unions are like the ideas our nation is founded on. I will tell you this; I would lay down my life for my country and the ideas it was founded on. That statement is backed up by my actions, not by a bunch of posts on a web board. I would not do that for my union or my job. It sounds to me that you seem to think higher of your union than your country with the crazy blending of your union history with your nations history. You have the preamble as your avitar and “All the ills of democracy can be cured by more democracy.” A.E. Smith as your signature, and continually carry on as though this is a widely and held belief that unions are held in great esteem by all. That comes off as "newspeak" in Orwellian terms by being dishonest on its face but true if you print it and act like it should be believed.
I also need to point out that the FF were trying to preserve your rights as an individual. I can't believe you think that HOA's are giving freedom to the individual. There is a huge difference in the constitution and the restricting powers of a HOA. Bad example.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,
You obviously have a lot of time on your hands to throw flack against the wall and see if it sticks.

Ugh ok... but not convincing debate...

I see this as a waste of time if you can not concede that unions can really rub people the wrong way because they are so easy to corrupt.

They sure are.... and so is gov't. The bailout already smells real bad...

So what is the difference between unions and gov't? IF the elected reps get corrupt the citizens or members can recall.....

If you want to keep arguing from the "pumping sunshine" stance, I can not stop you. As a matter of fact, I gave over 20 years of my life to ensure it. That is what I have brought to this debate. What have you brought except propaganda? You would be much more credible if you could admit that unions actually have a dubious history to overcome, and recognize that people like me recognize their purpose, and appreciate the sacrifice of some of its officers, but still do not jump up and down like you do pandering to be in its higher offices.

You are still not telling us how unions are not democratic like our gov't. Both have their flaws but are still the best way we have...

Unions got a bad rap due to the spin of associating them with communism, socialism, redistribution of wealth... but as we've seen in the last decade, unrestricted free market systems don't work...

The communism/socialism label is just a scare tactic. Bought by those afraid to be labeled a commie even though it was just smear....

But as we know our unions are modeled after our gov't representational structure...

I thank you for your service... the more democratic we make our organizations the better chance we have of it enduring..

The Orwellian facet of your argument comes from the way you are recreating the past by proclaiming that unions are like the ideas our nation is founded on. I will tell you this; I would lay down my life for my country and the ideas it was founded on. That statement is backed up by my actions, not by a bunch of posts on a web board. I would not do that for my union or my job.

You have said Orwellian twice and twice failed to relate unions to it. How are pilots voting for peers to represent them Orwellian?

It sounds to me that you seem to think higher of your union than your country with the crazy blending of your union history with your nations history.

Once again you are failing to grasp the simplicity of it....

If democracy is good for our gov't and can be modeled in the way we conduct affairs in other organizations, why not?

Answer this:

If it is not democracy in unions then what is it?

You have the preamble as your avitar and “All the ills of democracy can be cured by more democracy.” A.E. Smithas your signature, and continually carry on as though this is a widely and held belief that unions are held in great esteem by all.

No. Wrong again. All I am saying is.. that if unions are democracy and we pride ourselves on being the Great Democracy of the World (meaning USA), then shouldn't we support democracy in other organizations?

Why is democracy only ok for gov't but not for other organizations?

If we reject democracy in unions, Foundations, HOAs, etc.. then what are we accepting in these organizations? If it isn't called democracy then what is it?

That comes off as "newspeak" in Orwellian terms by being dishonest on its face but true if you print it and act like it should be believed.

This is the third time you've used Orwellian but fail to connect it to pilots electing their peers as representatives with the power to recall them...

I also need to point out that the FF were trying to preserve your rights as an individual. I can't believe you think that HOA's are giving freedom to the individual. There is a huge difference in the constitution and the restricting powers of a HOA. Bad example.

The homeowners in an HOA can collectively organize and change by-laws. Just like workers in a union. Just like citizens in a gov't.


How are gov't, union and HOA elections different in principle? In theory if one participates in one election then why not all?

What is the excuse? I am not feeling democratic today? Today is not a good day for me and democracy?

 

[starvingredtail]

SRT Quote:
I see this as a waste of time if you can not concede that unions can really rub people the wrong way because they are so easy to corrupt.

They sure are.... and so is gov't. The bailout already smells real bad...

So what is the difference between unions and gov't? IF the elected reps get corrupt the citizens or members can recall.....

The difference is that unions stand for collective bargaining and the govt should be for the people by the people based on individual rights. Yes, both have similarities, but unions hold closer to socalist ideas than capitalistic ideas. Remember about 1/2 of the country is not on board with your view that socialism is the new world order with unions being a leading part. Yes, the socialistic bailout predicably smells bad.
SRT Quote:
If you want to keep arguing from the "pumping sunshine" stance, I can not stop you. As a matter of fact, I gave over 20 years of my life to ensure it. That is what I have brought to this debate. What have you brought except propaganda? You would be much more credible if you could admit that unions actually have a dubious history to overcome, and recognize that people like me recognize their purpose, and appreciate the sacrifice of some of its officers, but still do not jump up and down like you do pandering to be in its higher offices.

You are still not telling us how unions are not democratic like our gov't. Both have their flaws but are still the best way we have...

See above

Unions got a bad rap due to the spin of associating them with communism, socialism, redistribution of wealth... but as we've seen in the last decade, unrestricted free market systems don't work...

Yes they do. However when socialists like Frank and Dodd want to interfere with the free trade model by allowing those who can't pay for goods recieve goods in exchange for votes, the socalistic model fails!

The communism/socialism label is just a scare tactic. Bought by those afraid to be labeled a commie even though it was just smear....

But as we know our unions are modeled after our gov't representational structure...

I thank you for your service... the more democratic we make our organizations the better chance we have of it enduring..

The unions can be "modeled" in a democratic fashion, but you are actually comparing them to the socialist democratic models in Europe. They can still claim to be "democratic" but the difference is the capitalistic model of America grasping to remain the last free nation on earth. The communism ties are not just a scare tactic. They are embedded in union history and are well deserved. Look it up. I provided a link above. Thank you for thanking me for my service. Now, what will you do for your country besides words?
SRT Quote:
The Orwellian facet of your argument comes from the way you are recreating the past by proclaiming that unions are like the ideas our nation is founded on. I will tell you this; I would lay down my life for my country and the ideas it was founded on. That statement is backed up by my actions, not by a bunch of posts on a web board. I would not do that for my union or my job.

You have said Orwellian twice and twice failed to relate unions to it. How are pilots voting for peers to represent them Orwellian?

If you will look again, you will see that I claim that your rah rah zeal and zest in linking unionism and the ideas of America and our FF is Orwellian because they are a tactic used in Orwell's novels showing how truth is what you publish. You are publishing a 1/4 truth that unions are as American as apple pie. They are not or else everyone would be in one. They are regarded by most of the nation as socialistic due to their history with communism. Again you can publish what you would like, but the "democracy" you allude to is really collective in nature with no individual Bill of Rights and although they can be construed as similar as they involve votes and people, the America of our FF's was not socialistic.
SRT Quote:

It sounds to me that you seem to think higher of your union than your country with the crazy blending of your union history with your nations history.

Once again you are failing to grasp the simplicity of it....

If democracy is good for our gov't and can be modeled in the way we conduct affairs in other organizations, why not?

Answer this:

If it is not democracy in unions then what is it?

See above. It is based on the socialistic "Social Democracies" of Europe, and until Nov 8th of this year, America was not in that category.
SRT Quote:

You have the preamble as your avitar and “All the ills of democracy can be cured by more democracy.” A.E. Smithas your signature, and continually carry on as though this is a widely and held belief that unions are held in great esteem by all.

No. Wrong again. All I am saying is.. that if unions are democracy and we pride ourselves on being the Great Democracy of the World (meaning USA), then shouldn't we support democracy in other organizations?

Why is democracy only ok for gov't but not for other organizations?

If we reject democracy in unions, Foundations, HOAs, etc.. then what are we accepting in these organizations? If it isn't called democracy then what is it?

Its called "Social Democracy" and is used in socialistic countries and is not based on capitalism and free trade. Unions and HOAs get their power by individuals willingly joining them AND WHEN THEY DO, THEY WILLINGLY GIVE UP INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS for the greater cause of THE ORGANIZATION. Sure, you can claim they are democratic, but they are not based on the freedoms guaranteed by the constitution. But feel free to stretch the two concepts to your hearts delight.
SRT Quote:

That comes off as "newspeak" in Orwellian terms by being dishonest on its face but true if you print it and act like it should be believed.

This is the third time you've used Orwellian but fail to connect it to pilots electing their peers as representatives with the power to recall them...

And this is the third time I will tell you your stretching of the implications of the constitutional democracy of the United States and the social democracy of unions and HOAs and blending them together in a confusing ball, and then proclaiming they are exactly the same, and all American good clean fun is Orwellian in the fact that you publish something false as true--over and over--until the unknowing accept it.
SRT Quote:
I also need to point out that the FF were trying to preserve your rights as an individual. I can't believe you think that HOA's are giving freedom to the individual. There is a huge difference in the constitution and the restricting powers of a HOA. Bad example.

The homeowners in an HOA can collectively organize and change by-laws. Just like workers in a union. Just like citizens in a gov't.

The huge elephant in the corner is they are not based on an Individual bill of Rights ensuring individual freedoms.

How are gov't, union and HOA elections different in principle? In theory if one participates in one election then why not all?

What is the excuse? I am not feeling democratic today? Today is not a good day for me and democracy?

I guess the better question is to ask;
Am I felling constitutionaly democratic of socalistly democratic today? There is a difference, they are similar but not the same. You can proclaim they are the same based on their similarities, but they are not the same. To do so alters the truth in an Orwellian fashion. You would have more credibility if you would tone down the cheerleader spirit and stick to the facts. You would appeal more to people like me that see a union as necessary because of the loopholes of capitalism that allow companies to be unfair to workers. Yes, I admit capitalism is not perfect, but it has a much better track record than socialism or communism. And it actually is Mom and apple pie.

 

[Fozzy]

Point of Order

Gentlemen,
Throwing around "Democracy" is starting to drive me a little nuts on this thread. This great Country is a Republic. Yes we poor working stiffs get our chance to vote every so often, but in the end, we are thankfully a Republic. True Democracy is mob rule. And if we had true Democracy at the Union level, well I would fear for the profession.
A good quick read on this very subject.
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=3853

Anyways, good for the JB guys. The Union will only be as successful as the rank and file pilots make it. Lots of volunteers and hard work. If you sit back and do nothing, that is what you will get.

Good luck, you are going to need it.

 

[starvingredtail]

Gentlemen,
Throwing around "Democracy" is starting to drive me a little nuts on this thread. This great Country is a Republic. Yes we poor working stiffs get our chance to vote every so often, but in the end, we are thankfully a Republic. True Democracy is mob rule. And if we had true Democracy at the Union level, well I would fear for the profession.
A good quick read on this very subject.
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=3853

Anyways, good for the JB guys. The Union will only be as successful as the rank and file pilots make it. Lots of volunteers and hard work. If you sit back and do nothing, that is what you will get.

Good luck, you are going to need it.

Excellent point. I am tired of wasting my time on the subject. We were given a republic as long as we could keep it.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Excellent point. I am tired of wasting my time on the subject. We were given a republic as long as we could keep it.

Hello? You'd think that a dude with Ron Burgundy, the bestest chazz flutist in the universe in his avatar, would be able to "agree to disagree" with Rez.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Pm me i'll help you out..

I think Splert means this part:

"Notwithstanding the foregoing, and in accordance with the terms of the Plan, the Airline reserves the right to amend the Plan or any future plan at any time and from time to time, or to terminate the Plan or any such plan, consistent with applicable legal requirements."

What say you Elaq?

 

[starvingredtail]

Hello? You'd think that a dude with Ron Burgundy, the bestest chazz flutist in the universe in his avatar, would be able to "agree to disagree" with Rez.

Ron Burgundy: I wanna say something. I'm gonna put it out there; if you like it, you can take it, if you don't, send it right back. I want to be on you.
[Veronica turns and walks away]
Ron Burgundy: Wait. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I... I wanna be on you.

Ron Burgundy: I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
Veronica Corningstone: Really.
Ron Burgundy: People know me.
Veronica Corningstone: Well, I'm very happy for you.
Ron Burgundy: I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

SRT Quote:
I see this as a waste of time if you can not concede that unions can really rub people the wrong way because they are so easy to corrupt.



The difference is that unions stand for collective bargaining and the govt should be for the people by the people based on individual rights. Yes, both have similarities, but unions hold closer to socalist ideas than capitalistic ideas. Remember about 1/2 of the country is not on board with your view that socialism is the new world order with unions being a leading part. Yes, the socialistic bailout predicably smells bad.

What does capitalism have to do with democracy?

JB is a very capitalist organization, however there is nothing democratic about it.... That is why the jB pilots want to create democracy at jB. The jB pilots want rights not totalitarian rule via corporate structure.

Corporations are not democracy. Capitalism is not democracy. You seem to not be able to understand this simple and fundamental concept.

SRT Quote:
If you want to keep arguing from the "pumping sunshine" stance, I can not stop you. As a matter of fact, I gave over 20 years of my life to ensure it. That is what I have brought to this debate. What have you brought except propaganda? You would be much more credible if you could admit that unions actually have a dubious history to overcome, and recognize that people like me recognize their purpose, and appreciate the sacrifice of some of its officers, but still do not jump up and down like you do pandering to be in its higher offices.


See above


Yes they do. However when socialists like Frank and Dodd want to interfere with the free trade model by allowing those who can't pay for goods recieve goods in exchange for votes, the socalistic model fails!
The unions can be "modeled" in a democratic fashion, but you are actually comparing them to the socialist democratic models in Europe. They can still claim to be "democratic" but the difference is the capitalistic model of America grasping to remain the last free nation on earth. The communism ties are not just a scare tactic. They are embedded in union history and are well deserved. Look it up. I provided a link above. Thank you for thanking me for my service. Now, what will you do for your country besides words?

First off, I see no link...

Second, what do I do? I participate in every venue of democracy. It is so easy to vote in any given election, not just gov't, that I think it would be insulting and disrespectful not to exercise that freedom to vote. Whether it is a union vote, town vote, congressional vote, HOA vote, etc... that is my whole point...

If democracy is worth fighting for, as you know, then why not honor those who have fought and exercise that right. What do you call an apathetic American who doesn't participate in an election? Spoiled?


The unregulated and free market has failed. And the reply has been to put Wall Street on socialist welfare, reward the losers and not make accountable tax payer money paid out. If you call that the "free market", then I suggest you don't understand what is really going on....

In addition, just as long as social democracy and socialism aren't labels placed on your ideals of what you think America is, then it can really be whatever it is... IOW, Wall Street has become the biggest social democracy, mirror of Europe and you still call it the free market....

But forget about all that....

Since you fear the communism label so much and trumpet capitalism....

How do you explain China? Capitalism is alive and well yet there is no democracy. If you address anything in this post address this....

China is a fundamental example that capitalism and democracy are not the same. That capitalism is not life, liberty and freedom.

The is nothing democratic about capitalism. Capitalism is a market system, not a gov't system, although gov't controls its market system, ergo China.

If one considers the effect of capitalism and the use of privatization on democracy, it is quite clear of the threat... Is the increasing presence of privatization on the public domain good for democracy?

SRT Quote:
The Orwellian facet of your argument comes from the way you are recreating the past by proclaiming that unions are like the ideas our nation is founded on. I will tell you this; I would lay down my life for my country and the ideas it was founded on. That statement is backed up by my actions, not by a bunch of posts on a web board. I would not do that for my union or my job.


If you will look again, you will see that I claim that your rah rah zeal and zest in linking unionism and the ideas of America and our FF is Orwellian because they are a tactic used in Orwell's novels showing how truth is what you publish. You are publishing a 1/4 truth that unions are as American as apple pie. They are not or else everyone would be in one. They are regarded by most of the nation as socialistic due to their history with communism. Again you can publish what you would like, but the "democracy" you allude to is really collective in nature with no individual Bill of Rights and although they can be construed as similar as they involve votes and people, the America of our FF's was not socialistic.

The Bill of Rights is a document that codifies individual rights from gov't as you stated.

I never claimed that democratic unions or HOAs were
of that caliber.

All I am saying is that if democracy is good for our gov't then why not for other organizations?

Let's look at it this way....

Why would one not vote in a union or HOA election? Too troublesome? Many unions use ballotpoint.com it literally takes 30 seconds to vote.

My point is the FF provided the foundation for democracy not only in our gov't but in any organization we wish...

Supporting democracy and exercising it is American. Is it not? Why not rid any association of unions with communism (if its even true) by participating in democracy.

Citizen Bob talks to citizen Jim...

"Jim, are you going to vote for the union?"

"Probably not Bob"

"Why not?"

"I don't like unions that much, they are a necessary evil and all, but that whole communist tag that comes with it"

"How is voting communist, Bob?"

"well........its not but..."

"You're an American right, Bob?"

"What is that supposed to mean, Jim?"

"Well, don't you support democracy?"....
​

You get the idea...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

SRT Quote:

It sounds to me that you seem to think higher of your union than your country with the crazy blending of your union history with your nations history.



See above. It is based on the socialistic "Social Democracies" of Europe, and until Nov 8th of this year, America was not in that category.
SRT Quote:

You have the preamble as your avitar and “All the ills of democracy can be cured by more democracy.” A.E. Smithas your signature, and continually carry on as though this is a widely and held belief that unions are held in great esteem by all.



Its called "Social Democracy" and is used in socialistic countries and is not based on capitalism and free trade. Unions and HOAs get their power by individuals willingly joining them AND WHEN THEY DO, THEY WILLINGLY GIVE UP INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS for the greater cause of THE ORGANIZATION. Sure, you can claim they are democratic, but they are not based on the freedoms guaranteed by the constitution. But feel free to stretch the two concepts to your hearts delight.

Once again you show your lack of understanding of gov't systems and market systems.

Explain to the users of this message board HOW jB pilots will give up individual rights for the greater cause of the union?

As of now, they have ZERO rights! By voting in a union they gain rights under federal law, a voice, self representation, self governance... how is that communism or socialism?

Unions and HOAs don't claim to guarantee freedoms of the constitution. That is the purpose of our gov't. Why is it when you walk into a business, your second amendments are stripped? When you choose to function in a corporate domain you choose to give up your constitutional rights. There is no freedom of speech in Best Buy! Security will usher you out..

SRT Quote:

That comes off as "newspeak" in Orwellian terms by being dishonest on its face but true if you print it and act like it should be believed.


And this is the third time I will tell you your stretching of the implications of the constitutional democracy of the United States and the social democracy of unions and HOAs and blending them together in a confusing ball, and then proclaiming they are exactly the same, and all American good clean fun is Orwellian in the fact that you publish something false as true--over and over--until the unknowing accept it.

I am looking at it from an individual integrity standpoint... if democracy is good enough for our gov't structure and worth fighting for then why not in unions and HOA's?

Why would one vote in a gov't election but not a union election? Is the democracy different...?

Or is there a better way than democracy in our non-gov't domains?

SRT Quote:
I also need to point out that the FF were trying to preserve your rights as an individual. I can't believe you think that HOA's are giving freedom to the individual. There is a huge difference in the constitution and the restricting powers of a HOA. Bad example.



The huge elephant in the corner is they are not based on an Individual bill of Rights ensuring individual freedoms.

And why should they? The gov't already guarantees individual rights. What unions do is copy the democratic example made possible by the FF. Why not recognize it, respect it and exercise it.... would that be........... American?

What unions do is guarantee rights in the corporate domain, the non-gov't domain, the workplace domain... because you have minimal and unsatisfactory rights in the workplace.

I guess the better question is to ask;

Am I felling constitutionaly democratic of socalistly democratic today? There is a difference, they are similar but not the same. You can proclaim they are the same based on their similarities, but they are not the same. To do so alters the truth in an Orwellian fashion. You would have more credibility if you would tone down the cheerleader spirit and stick to the facts. You would appeal more to people like me that see a union as necessary because of the loopholes of capitalism that allow companies to be unfair to workers. Yes, I admit capitalism is not perfect, but it has a much better track record than socialism or communism. And it actually is Mom and apple pie.

So the free market system that resulted in the Great Depression is gosh darn it, good ol golly Beaver Cleaver Mom and Apple pie? with over 25% of Americans out of work, I don't think there was much apple pie...

The current financial crises brought to us by free market capitalism is Mom and apple pie?


Once again I think you have a different American value system.

You value capitalism because you think it is American. Well it is.. but it is also Chinese.

What is exclusively American is democracy. And we use democracy to run our unions and HOA's. Sounds pretty American to me....