It's Official...The 717's are going to Delta

[shagadelic]

Just got the email..


The tentative agreement between Southwest and Delta would transition the 717s over three years starting in the second half of 2013 at an anticipated rate of three aircraft a month.

 

[FATboy]

Email from who?

 

[califlyer]

Mike VDV, I just read it.

 

[shagadelic]

16 aircraft leaving in 2013, 36 in 2014, and 36 in 2015....all replaced by extending the life of the classics and purchasing new NG's.

 

[CptMurf]

So, the question remains.... Would this trigger the AirTran fragmentation policy allowing a certain amount of AirTran pilots to go to Delta under the ALPA merger policy?

PCL-128?

 

[B727Driver]

Is SWA getting some 737’s from DAL in this transaction?

 

[General Lee]

Delta to Take Delivery of Boeing 717 Aircraft Upon Ratification of Pilot Tentative Agreement

Delta to upgauge fleet while replacing less efficient aircraft
Pilot agreement and aircraft transactions provide value to Delta people, customers and shareholders






ATLANTA, May 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Delta Air Lines (DAL) will begin taking delivery of Boeing 717 aircraft as early as 2013 upon ratification of a new tentative agreement covering Delta's more than 12,000 pilots. The tentative agreement was approved on May 21 by the Master Executive Council (MEC) of the Delta Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), and now will be presented to pilots for review and ratification through June 30.



The tentative agreement provides career growth opportunities as well as pay and benefits improvements for Delta pilots, while providing Delta productivity gains and additional aircraft flexibility, including an opportunity to accelerate its domestic fleet restructuring to provide a better customer travel experience.

If ratified, the agreement will accelerate Delta's domestic fleet restructuring strategy. To this end, Delta has reached an agreement in principle with Southwest Airlines and Boeing to lease 88 Boeing 717 aircraft currently in service at Southwest subsidiary AirTran Airways that is conditioned upon pilot ratification of the tentative agreement. The aircraft will primarily replace inefficient 50-seat regional jets and some older DC-9 aircraft still in service, on a capacity-neutral basis.

The tentative agreement also provides Delta with additional flexibility to acquire up to 70 larger two-class, 76-seat regional jets as the Boeing 717 aircraft are delivered to Delta. Delta currently operates 255 larger two-class regional jets; the fleet will be increased to 325 aircraft.

"These actions pave the way for us to restructure and upgauge our domestic fleet, which will lower our costs, provide more pilot jobs and improve the onboard experience for our customers," said Delta CEO Richard Anderson. "The addition of the Boeing 717s, additional large regional jets and the planned replacement of 50-seat aircraft continue Delta's commitment to operating an efficient, flexible domestic fleet that offers customers even more opportunities to upgrade to our First Class and Economy Comfort cabins."

In addition to aircraft flexibility, the tentative agreement will provide for productivity enhancements as well as improvements to the total compensation package for Delta pilots, including increases to base pay. The agreement also provides for a modification of the profit sharing program for pilots so that it pays 10 percent of profits, compared with 15 percent today, on the first $2.5 billion of profits effective Jan. 1, 2013. The plan will continue to pay 20 percent of profits above $2.5 billion. A voluntary early retirement option recently offered to Delta's other employee groups also will be available to Delta pilots upon ratification of the tentative agreement.

"Delta, our pilots and ALPA continue to benefit from a very constructive, proactive relationship, one that is unprecedented in our industry," said Mike Campbell, executive vice president – Human Resources and Labor Relations. "This tentative agreement represents an investment in our pilots and our company as it gives Delta significant fleet flexibility, the ability to continue running a reliable operation for our customers, and a profitable enterprise for shareholders and for all Delta people. The fleet changes provided by this agreement, coupled with the productivity and profit sharing changes, cover the investments in our employees.

"We strongly support the Delta MEC's endorsement and are optimistic that Delta pilots will ratify the tentative agreement," Campbell said.
Pilots have approximately five weeks to review and ratify the tentative agreement. If approved by the June 30 deadline, the agreement would take effect July 1, 2012. The agreement becomes amendable Dec. 31, 2015.



Well, there's the carrot. But, a lot of people said "I'll believe it when I see it......" There you go.



Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[4day]

So every Airtran pilot lost there seat. If they dont snap the pay up soon there will have a riot. Way to go SWorst.

 

[zippy32]

So, the question remains.... Would this trigger the AirTran fragmentation policy allowing a certain amount of AirTran pilots to go to Delta under the ALPA merger policy?

PCL-128?

"Our plans to continue to integrate current AirTran Employees into the Southwest operation over the next several years are not changed by this tentative agreement. The Pilots will now transition directly from the 717s to the 737s, and the Flight Attendants and Maintenance personnel are currently trained on both fleets. I’m sure that many of you will have additional questions and we will have time to work through all those details before the first 717 leaves the fleet more than a year from now."

 

[amcnd]

I know this is alittle off topic. But what would this do for staffing at Delta? Saying they down the DC9. # of Newhires. And what would upgrade time drop to?? GL? Any guesses?

On the flip side. SWA remains flat the next 3 years. Then growth?? Or new those deferals on the 800's would come and replace the old 737's??

 

[scoreboardII]

Nothing like adding a little fuel to the fire... Nice work SWA.

 

[CptMurf]

"Our plans to continue to integrate current AirTran Employees into the Southwest operation over the next several years are not changed by this tentative agreement. The Pilots will now transition directly from the 717s to the 737s, and the Flight Attendants and Maintenance personnel are currently trained on both fleets. I’m sure that many of you will have additional questions and we will have time to work through all those details before the first 717 leaves the fleet more than a year from now."

I read that too, but there are still some holes to fill in here. Notice how the DAL press release states that the transfer would only happen if the TA is approved. So the reason I asked is this from PCL 128 on another thread...

Sorry, too lazy. The quick version is that the fragmentation language kicks in if airplanes that represent more than 30% of our block hours are transferred to another carrier within a 12 month period of time. If that happens, then the company is required to negotiate for the pilots to go with the planes, based on standard company staffing for that number of planes.

So the question remains.

 

[Homer Jay]

This is still no reason to vote in that POS TA. Does anyone actually believe that if the pilots vote it down that Delta management is going to alter it's long term business plan? These planes are going to come to you regardless. Please raise the bar for us. We at UniCal are counting on you.

 

[StopNTSing]

I don't think this deal will affect staffing levels at either airline. It's a 1:1 717s to 737s for SWA, and probably a 1:1 Diesel 9s to 717s for DAL. The only question remaining is how the accelerated phase-out of 717s from the ATN side affects captain seats and vacancies at SWA.

My gut always told me from the git-go that we'd never see a 717 in canyon blue.

 

[General Lee]

I know this is alittle off topic. But what would this do for staffing at Delta? Saying they down the DC9. # of Newhires. And what would upgrade time drop to?? GL? Any guesses?

On the flip side. SWA remains flat the next 3 years. Then growth?? Or new those deferals on the 800's would come and replace the old 737's??

I have heard they are keeping the DC9s around now until 2014. Big retirements start in the next few years, so that coupled with 717s coming in at 3 a month, plus 100 737-900s coming in, means there could be a lot of movement. I think the upgrade time would drop, but I don't know what it is now. Some guys junior to me around the 12 year mark currently are bottom Captains, but they fly very junior on the DC9 or MD88. I would think that would drop quickly.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I don't think this deal will affect staffing levels at either airline. It's a 1:1 717s to 737s for SWA, and probably a 1:1 Diesel 9s to 717s for DAL. The only question remaining is how the accelerated phase-out of 717s from the ATN side affects captain seats and vacancies at SWA.

I think there are only 17 DC9s left, and they will supposedly stick around until 2014. We are also adding 27 MD90s this year, maybe more the next, and 100 737-900s start coming in this Summer, but they are set to replace some older 757s and domestic 767s. I think there will be some hiring.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[chris69]

Or look at the big picture. Is there some sort of unofficial alliance forming between DAL/NWA and SWA for the upcoming blood match with the rest of the industry? Both sides solidifying their balance sheets with recent announcements. There seems to be something slightly underhanded going on...just first thoughts.

 

[General Lee]

Southwest Airlines, Delta Air Lines, And Boeing Capital Reach A Tentative Agreement To Sublease AirTran Boeing 717 Fleet

717s Would Depart the Southwest Fleet Beginning Mid-2013






DALLAS, May 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ --Southwest Airlines confirmed today that the airline, together with its subsidiary, AirTran Airways, Inc., has reached a tentative agreement with Delta Air Lines, Inc., and Boeing Capital Corp., to sublease all 88 of its Boeing 717 aircraft to Delta. A final agreement is subject to Delta and Southwest reaching certain agreements with all parties related to the aircraft leases. The tentative agreement between Southwest and Delta would transition the 717s over three years starting in the second half of 2013 with completion in 2015.



"This is a very complex transaction that requires time and close coordination with multiple parties. While we do have a tentative agreement with Delta, final details must be completed with all parties before a binding agreement between Delta and Southwest can be completed," said Mike Van de Ven, Southwest Airlines' Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer.

A transition of the 717s was an option that the airline acknowledged when it executed its fleet agreement with the Boeing Co. The plan calls for the transition of approximately three 717 aircraft per month beginning in mid-2013. Southwest is not releasing any additional details about the tentative agreement at this time. The Company currently plans to keep the total fleet count relatively flat as the 717s transition to Delta.

Southwest's plans to integrate current AirTran Employees into the Southwest operation over the next several years remain unchanged. All Pilots would train and transition directly into the airline's 737 fleet as the 717s are reduced. AirTran Flight Attendants and Maintenance personnel are currently trained on both aircraft types. Southwest would replace AirTran's 717 flying with 737 aircraft, and would work with individual airports on facilities transition timelines. Southwest affirms its current plans to maintain service to all previously announced airports.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

So every Airtran pilot lost there seat. If they dont snap the pay up soon there will have a riot. Way to go SWorst.

Nice invective. We don't know exactly what this means yet, so maybe you could hold off on the torches and pitchforks for a little bit, okay? For instance the integration transition has to be complete by 1 Jan 2015, and accorrding to the timeline above, there'll still be 36 of the 88 planes at SWA. That's a contractual problem, unless SWA wants to change them to Southwest colors and interiors for one year and THEN send them to Delta.

Since there is an apparent discontinuity in when the transition from Airtran-to-SWA timeline vs the "new" Airtran-to-Delta timeline, the company will have to negotiate a change. You'd think that the company would have to offer the pilots (the affected pilots, that is) something to get SWAPA to agree to another year in transition, but I doubt that your "snap up the pay sooner or we'll riot" negotiation strategy is the proper opening offer. You know?

Let's see exactly what this means, what exactly will happen and when, and what can be done about it before we go off the deep end. Labeling management "SWorst" for making what is probably a smart business decision is a little childish.

Just a thought.

Bubba

 

[Noserider76]

This is still no reason to vote in that POS TA. Does anyone actually believe that if the pilots vote it down that Delta management is going to alter it's long term business plan? These planes are going to come to you regardless. Please raise the bar for us. We at UniCal are counting on you.

Does the DL TA not raise your rates dramatically? DL TA rates look like about a 50% pay increase for a 12 year United 320 FO.

 

[Hamfighter]

We'd better accept that dog of a TA fast so we don't loose the 717s!!!

 

[humveedriver]

let's see exactly what this means, what exactly will happen and when, and what can be done about it before we go off the deep end.

+1. ^^^

 

[BoilerUP]

The tentative agreement also provides Delta with additional flexibility to acquire up to 70 larger two-class, 76-seat regional jets as the Boeing 717 aircraft are delivered to Delta. Delta currently operates 255 larger two-class regional jets; the fleet will be increased to 325 aircraft.

Maybe its my Kentucky public school education, but something isn't adding up here.

Delta's current scope allows 153 76 seaters; add "up to" 70 more and you get to the TA limit of 223. There are 88 717s, and coincidentally enough when you consider 1.25 narrowbodies for every 1 76 seater you get 70 new 76 seat jets.

Okay great! But what about those DC9 retirements they mention in the press release?

The way I read it, management will add 88 narrowbodies worth of 76 seat growth, but the net gain in mainline aircraft will be less than 88 planes...?

Also, the TA would restrict 50-70 seat small jets to a grand total of 125...right? So how do they get to the 325 number in the press release?

 

[texman]

I agree bubba.

 

[C601]

As I said back in Feb, the Boeing 717 never met SW's fleet requirements...

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Let's see exactly what this means, what exactly will happen and when, and what can be done about it before we go off the deep end.

Just a thought.

Bubba

Or, we could get out in front of it and be better prepared for the next round of LUV and WN version of the Golden Rule that we're about to recieve.

 

[Ty Webb]

Bubba's right. The 717's had to go, but hopefully, this can be handled in a way where people can feel they were taken care of, not taken advantage of.

 

[WildcatFan]

I don't think this deal will affect staffing levels at either airline. It's a 1:1 717s to 737s for SWA, and probably a 1:1 Diesel 9s to 717s for DAL. The only question remaining is how the accelerated phase-out of 717s from the ATN side affects captain seats and vacancies at SWA.

My gut always told me from the git-go that we'd never see a 717 in canyon blue.

My gut tells me you didnt read VDV's letter very close. He said lift will be the same, not a 1:1 conversion of 717s to 737s. Our fleet will shrink. Count on it.

 

[777forever]

Maybe its my Kentucky public school education, but something isn't adding up here.

Delta's current scope allows 153 76 seaters; add "up to" 70 more and you get to the TA limit of 223. There are 88 717s, and coincidentally enough when you consider 1.25 narrowbodies for every 1 76 seater you get 70 new 76 seat jets.

Okay great! But what about those DC9 retirements they mention in the press release?

The way I read it, management will add 88 narrowbodies worth of 76 seat growth, but the net gain in mainline aircraft will be less than 88 planes...?

Also, the TA would restrict 50-70 seat small jets to a grand total of 125...right? So how do they get to the 325 number in the press release?

Net gain of mainline aircraft will be more than 88 planes. 100 737-900s on the way. Net gain of regional aircraft will be -200 50 seaters plus 70 76 seaters= total net gain of -130 DCI. That flying will be replaced by 717s

Win Win

 

[Lear70]

Or, we could get out in front of it and be better prepared for the next round of LUV and WN version of the Golden Rule that we're about to recieve.

Which is what I was advocating a month and a half ago and is what got ALPA started developing contingency plans for this... it was the last thing I did on the NC before shuffling to CCC.

That's why we have a plan in place, and now that we know how the deal is structured, the MEC can move forward dealing with it. The only thing we know for sure, with the Southwest response to Jim's letter of yesterday, is that it's not going to be anything quick in terms of "benefit" to offset this massive loss.

Be patient, and try not to get your blood pressure up over things we can't control. They made a business decision that is different than what they told us during negotiations and road shows. How they deal with that and the fallout in terms of employee morale that they have to integrate remains to be seen.

I remain hopeful that something positive comes of this for all of us...