Island Air sold

[402driver]

Say What??

I normally don’t play Devil’s Advocate, but I’ll make an exception this time…

Aloha has spent a lot of time, money, resources & patience trying to make money in the interisland market and, according to AQ management, hasn’t made any money for the last 10 years.

Now…Island Air (WP) would be flying the majority of interisland flights, using their time, money, resources & patience and…here comes the kicker…AQ MAKES MONEY!

Yep…The code share, or what WP President terms a “joint marketing agreement” will give AQ a percentage of Revenue for all of WP flights operating under code share.

How can WP make money when AQ hasn’t been able to pull it off? Well, when you consider that WP pays its pilots, mechanics, flight attendants and everybody else about HALF of what AQ pays, and that it operates an aircraft that costs at least half as much to operate per seat mile, and then they charge MORE for their tickets…well you see how they can do it.

AQ used to do everything for nothing, now they will do nothing and get something. Not a bad deal…If your management.

As far as the pilots go…this is a pretty raw deal for both sides.

WP pilots that wanted to go to AQ…well that aint going to happen in the near future…if at all.

As far as the AQ pilots, many may have gave up opportunities elsewhere to fly for Aloha, earning less money than perhaps what they could have made elsewhere, for the sun, surf, sand and “home every night” lifestyle...That could all change. If the interisland flying is greatly reduced and the mainland & international flights are greatly increased, where do the AQ pilots end up?

So what does all of this mean? Absolutely nothing. Things will be just as they always have been. The management will do what they want, when they want.

I don’t know, I may be totally off base here, but that’s my fity centz.

 

[wanttoflyhawaii]

I think Aloha pilots and others should stop this from happening. This is a loss loss situation. Has anyone heard a news about ACA trying to make there own airline? This could be the case! I agree with the previous post many local pilots gave up less pay just to live in Hawaii. I met a retired 747 United captain several years ago who had a million dollar home with a million dollar view, nice family, nice car, bank account in swisserland, and he seems rich. He retired right after 9-11. I don't think pilots at local airlines could have this kind of life but they stayed at Aloha for many unique reasons. If you want to have the life you want, you fight for it! I am saying this because I don't want to see all prop service in Hawaii and I will end up taking low paying jobs by the time I am old enough.

 

[wanttoflyhawaii]

I think Aloha pilots and others should stop this from happening. This is a loss loss situation. Has anyone heard a news about ACA trying to make there own airline? This could be the case! I agree with the previous post many local pilots gave up less pay just to live in Hawaii. I met a retired 747 United captain several years ago who had a million dollar home with a million dollar view, nice family, nice car, bank account in swisserland, and he seems rich. He retired right after 9-11. I don't think pilots at local airlines could have this kind of life but they stayed at Aloha for many unique reasons. If you want to have the life you want, you fight for it! I am saying this because I don't want to see all prop service in Hawaii and I will end up taking low paying jobs by the time I am old enough.

 

[Freight Dog]

A couple of points:

1) AQ interisland has made money this year unlike before and here's why - the flights have been jam-packed as the availability has been reduced due to collusion with HAL, also elimination of coupons, and raising the fares. I remember flying over the summer and I could probably count on my hands the number of times when we pushed back and it wasn't a full boat. I've flown OGG-KOA route as recently as last week, and I am yet to see the justification for a DHC-8 to replace a 737 simply given the number of people and bags.

2) Take one of our full -200's. 118 people. You need 3 full DHC-8 flights to replace that 737 flight.

3) As for giving up less pay to live in Hawaii - our pay is industry-standard 737 pay (with the exception of 1st year FO pay) even with our 10% paycut. The difference is that unlike many other airlines, we don't fly overtime, so the company is forced to hire if they need more people, they're forced to upgrade if they need more captains. We don't cut each other's throat. This is a double-edged sword, our captains could make extra $3 grand to fly just 1 extra mainland trip in a month, yet they can't. This is to protect the FO's who're about to upgrade, and junior guys who would be furloughed as a result. So, did we give up pay to live here? Only if you consider no overtime as giving up pay. I see it as an honorable thing by our pilot group (by senior pilots). I would also hardly call our retirement as settling for less, as it is one of the industry-leading retirement packages.

402, I gotta disagree with you when you say "management will do what they want when they want." They'll only do that if you fold, and take it. That's why it is important to abide by your contract, and not be afraid to stand up to the company when they do things against your contract.

 

[402driver]

Contract?

A couple of points:

402, I gotta disagree with you when you say "management will do what they want when they want." They'll only do that if you fold, and take it. That's why it is important to abide by your contract, and not be afraid to stand up to the company when they do things against your contract.

According to the high-paid lawyers that Aloha AirGroup, AQ & WP have retained, the sale of WP to the Willis family is perfectly legal. And the scope clause, well it no longer is applicable to WP because it is no longer owned by Aloha AirGroup. According to the lawyers, not me, they are well within their contractual obligaitions.

So...What should we pilots do? Refuse to fly? Get all HuHu. Develope bad attitudes. Then WE will be outside of our contractual obligations and WE will be the ones that are breaking our word, and WE will be the ones that will get LEGALLY fired!

But the scope clause was supposed to have prevented all of this mess to begin with, right? Well, like most every other contractual document, there are loopholes in the Scope Clause. And my friend...I think Aloha AirGroup's management has figured out a way to fit a DHC-8 through one of them!

As far as the pay...Ask a 20 year captain of a major what they are getting paid to drive a 737-700. Overtime or no Overtime, the two figures are not even close. True, the defined benifits plan at AQ is AWSOME! But...Money and happieness are relative terms. I would rather get paid less and work for AQ than get paid buku bucks and live the Major's lifestyle (hotels, trips, hotels, trips, divorce, trips, hotels, scandal, trips, hotel..........) But...that's just me. What can I say, I grew up in Hawaii, my family is in Hawaii, my life is in Hawaii. AQ is not a bad gig at all, the pay is fair for the work performed and the work environment is the best imaginable. All I'm saying is that, if AQ transforms into a different animal, compensation and lifestyle will also transform. Take it for what it's worth.

I do not know all of the facts and I am not saying I am right in everything I have posted. All I am doing is putting things out there for people to think about.

Freight Dog, How you doing buddy? It's been a long time.

 

[dash8driver]

yes, according to the high paid AQ lawyers, its probably legal. but lawyers dont determine whats legal and whats not. they just find loopholes and argue that their interpretation is right. its up to a judge/arbitrator to determine if its legal or not.

as what was said earlier, ALPA's high paid lawyers are looking at it too. AQ lawyers have a much bigger headstart since ALPA only found out about this days ago. if ALPA lawyers come up with a different interpretation, you can bet it will take an arbitrator to settle the case.

i agree though, this could be bad news for anyone that wants to make a decent living at a decent airline, flying jets. its great news for the few people at WP that are stuck there or dont want to leave.

 

[Freight Dog]

If dance around scope is all it is, this will boil down to fancy lawyering and a decision by the arbitrator.


Check your PM's 402. Should change that 402 part out

 

[402driver]

I would if I knew how!

Sup Dog,

Thanks for the PM. It did shine some light on the situation. As far as the 402 thing...I don't know how to change my user name!

I hope that ALPA & their attorneys can figure this out. As far as WP & AQ goes....I just hope that everyone remembers that we were once on the same team. I personally am very sad about this whole thing.

Oh well, at least Christmas won’t be boring!

 

[Sleepyhead]

For those interested in what happened at the meeting, here are some of the Qs and As.:

Why did Aloha sell Island Air?
The timing was right, and it is not true that Aloha needs to
raise cash.
What will the relationship be between AQ and WP?
WP will still have a marketing agreement with AQ and use AQ
flight numbers on flights.
What is the structure of the new company?
Charles Willis and son Austin have bought the company as a
private investment, separate from the Willis leasing company
which currently leases the Dash-8s to WP. Neil Takekawa will
remain president of Island Air while Charles Willis will serve as
chairman and Austin Willis as vice president of strategic and
business development.`No additional board members picked
at this time.
Are there any regulatory hurdles to be cleared to make the deal happen, such as ATSB?
That has to do with Aloha not Island Air.
(none answer, it has been reported in the newspapers that the
ATSB must approve the deal)
When is this going to happen?
The deal will be finalized on March 1. (if passing regulatory
hurdles) On March 1, WP will start flights from OGG to KOA and
ITA. A few months after that service to LIH will be added.
What is the plan for WPs future?
We do not want to compete with AQ or HA. Our plan is to fly
routes that are not served or are under-served by the others.
Since 911, HA and AQ have cut interisland service and marketing
studies show there is high demand for service between OGG
and the Big Island. As for Kauai, we will plan for early morn and
late evening flights that HA and AQ do not have.
How many new airplanes and where will you get them?
All planes will be Dash-8-100s. Will get 2or 3 before March 1.
We will buy them from who ever gives the best deal.
How long was this in the works?
At least 6 months.
What does Aloha's Pilot Union think about this?
No comment.


My take on the info given at the meeting was that this was all about getting around the scope clause. Statements made by both Aloha and WP management said they have been interested in expanding Island Air for a long time but were unable to.
Why else would you sell a company and then still have the same marketing agreement you had before.
In the long run I think this will hurt HA a lot more than AQ.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

My take on the info given at the meeting was that this was all about getting around the scope clause. Statements made by both Aloha and WP management said they have been interested in expanding Island Air for a long time but were unable to.
Why else would you sell a company and then still have the same marketing agreement you had before.
In the long run I think this will hurt HA a lot more than AQ. [/B]

As I have said before, by expanding Island Air and getting around ALPA to do so, this will sqeeze Hawaiian pretty hard. There is no way Hawaiian can match the Aloha brand name (WP and AQ) with its 717s. And since WP is "technically" an independent company now, this will clear the way for Hawaiian to fold or try another merger down the road. Aloha has been wanting to change the nature of its business, and it will need more west coast destinations to do so. AQ would love to have a big bite of Seattle, Portland, Las Vegas, PHX, and San Diego (all dominated by HAL at this time). As for interisland, I suspect AQ will only retain the major routes in the future (eg HNL-OGG/LIH/KOA/ITO), and left the rest to WP (the retirment of the 200s will accelerate this transfer). As far as AQ ALPA is concerned, they would be happy as long as the 700s are growing, and retaining the profitable interisland routes. But if things hit the fan with the 700s, ALPA will raise hell. But thats just what I predict the big picture will be and its probably wrong. Something for you to chew on.

 

[topdawg]

thought

The Chings sold 100% of Island Air's stock to the Willis Leasing Corp. But at the same time the Chings traded for stock in Willis Leasing Corp which now owns Island Air. That's where the interest is. So......the Chings don't own it anymore but, are stock holders of the new Island Air.

 

[DashCash(less)]

Yea Boy!!

and i just bought stock in Willis, al'right! Maybe I'll make some money for a change.

 

[jjp]

I went into our (AQ) office today to check on a resume for a friend of mine at WP and one of the ladies who is in charge of these things told me that she had been "ordered" to pull all Island Air applicants out of the file. Apparently, the instructors (who do the interviewing) hate WP in general and are ecstatic that they no longer have to look at them. I was also told by someone who should know that another two ex Island Air pilots failed upgrade training, that one recently hired WP pilot was about to be given walking papers and that my friend had "virtually no chance".

This is B.S.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I went into our (AQ) office today to check on a resume for a friend of mine at WP and one of the ladies who is in charge of these things told me that she had been "ordered" to pull all Island Air applicants out of the file. Apparently, the instructors (who do the interviewing) hate WP in general and are ecstatic that they no longer have to look at them. I was also told by someone who should know that another two ex Island Air pilots failed upgrade training, that one recently hired WP pilot was about to be given walking papers and that my friend had "virtually no chance".

This is B.S.

Donning my nomex suit in anticipation of what this post will bring forth...

 

[Sleepyhead]

"The Chings sold 100% of Island Air's stock to the Willis Leasing Corp. But at the same time the Chings traded for stock in Willis Leasing Corp which now owns Island Air. That's where the interest is. So......the Chings don't own it anymore but, are stock holders of the new Island Air...."


Well not exactly correct. Charles Willis and his son Austin have formed a private company called Gavarnie. Island Air was sold to Gavarnie. Willis Leasing has no corparate interest in Gavarnie except that it leases 4 Dashs to Island Air. Charles Willis only owns 37% of Willis leasing.
Since it has been reported that the Willis's own 100% of Gavarnie, I'm guessing the Chings got stock in Willis Leasing.

If Willis leasing is a public company, it would be easy to find out.
Does anybody know anything about Willis leasing?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

http://www.wlfc.com/

 

[DashCash(less)]

Gotta Love It

I guess Aloha will be full of furloughed Delta & United guys (well, at least until they get called back, then they’re adios). Hey, maybe Aloha will open up a base on the mainland so that new hires will feel at home.

Hey wait, does that mean that Aloha will start hiring Hawaiian furloughs? I'm not certain, but I don't think they get along with Hawaiian pilots either. Oh well, I guess Hawaiian pilots can still go to Island Air, go figure!?

 

[Slim Dusty]

"This is B.S."

The news or the post itself?

The 2 prior IA guys who upgraded in Nov passed. And I DH'd on a flight with LB doing IOE. He was happy as a clam and I think he was the last one hired.

 

[DashCash(less)]

"This is B.S."

The news or the post itself?

The 2 prior IA guys who upgraded in Nov passed. And I DH'd on a flight with LB doing IOE. He was happy as a clam and I think he was the last one hired.

Ahhhh reality. It is so good to see you again.

I guess some people just have to stir-up the pot. But it looks like JJG is from france, so we all expected that.

 

[islandhopper]

Ahhhh reality. It is so good to see you again.

I guess some people just have to stir-up the pot. But it looks like JJG is from france, so we all expected that.

(in my best french accent) He is JJ z french fighter piloooot. When he goes down, he goes down in flames!!