Is the worst over at Flexjet?

[bunman45]

Just sitting here in the hotel sipping a glass of wine and eating some cashews, naked and wondering if the worst is behind us here at flex. Any thoughts?

 

[FMR8251]

Being I'm one of the 85, and currently sipping powered lemonade, eating MRE's, and fully clothed in 120 degree heat...I sure as ____ hope so!

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

Like a dead snitch it's hard to tell.

 

[unclepetey]

I thought the worst was over for the industry, then Citation Shares layed off more people and downgraded.

Flexjet wise, they have no clue what is going to happen, all they do is react. Wish I was at NJ.

 

[FalconPilot69]

In looking at the numbers, it looks like Citation Shares held out on the deeper cuts than we did. Their numbers are now about the same as ours. Who knows whether the end is near or not. I sure hope so for everyone's sake. I did see in AIN for whatever that is worth, that the analysts are saying the used market has bottomed out. I think that is usually a good sign. Some of the more experienced guys could better comment on that from previous recessions.

 

[T-1GUY]

Yeah I have some thoughts... Put some Freaking clothes on prior to posting !!! Dude, I know your Gay because you lay in bed eating cashews and sipping wine...

 

[bunman45]

Yeah I have some thoughts... Put some Freaking clothes on prior to posting !!! Dude, I know your Gay because you lay in bed eating cashews and sipping wine...

C'mon bro! Have a sense of humor.

 

[T-1GUY]

Believe me, my post is in jest. I was laughing at the thought of it...

 

[John MClain]

I thought the worst was over for the industry, then Citation Shares layed off more people and downgraded.

Flexjet wise, they have no clue what is going to happen, all they do is react. Wish I was at NJ.

I am sure that is just what the Flex 85 love to hear. Oh, by the way,

I wish you were at NJ too!

The grass is always greener you TOOL.

 

[netjetwife]

Reacting, in and of itself, isn't bad. It's the way some managers reacted that makes the difference. Recognizing that some are more pilot-friendly and willing to try alternatives first is just basic honesty and preferring a perceived better deal is simply human nature. For all we know, Uncle just posted what some of the Flex 85 are thinking.

I have been hoping that the furlough mitigation effort at NJ would spread to the other fracs, or at least help them in some way. I knew that would require open-minded managers but it never occurred to me that other frac pilots wouldn't want their own version of the voluntary measures, especially if it meant saving jobs.

Good luck to the Flex 85 and their families. I know the recall clock is ticking for you. Best Wishes, NJW

 

[Nolife]

never mind...

 

[netjetwife]

Hey, Nolife, I read your original post in an email notice. I had no problem with it...maybe a bit blunt...but definitely honest. You have my sympathy. NJW

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

Being I'm one of the 85, and currently sipping powered lemonade, eating MRE's, and fully clothed in 120 degree heat...I sure as ____ hope so!

Remember, at least you're working and earning some $$$. That's my backup plan if things go/went bad at NJ. I know the reserves are ALWAYS looking for bodies to fill aircraft and will take a guy who recently retired.

Keep your head down and be safe!!

 

[doh]

It seems like the monthlies are holding steady at current levels. The problem is of course, until the flying ratchets back up, no recalls. The one thing I'm unhappy with management for doing is the short recall window. I don't get that at all. Any of you oldsters care to explain that one to me?

 

[smartelephant]

would you explain please what you mean by "the short recall window?"

 

[doh]

Two year recall window. This recovery is going to be slow, imo, and I think two years is too short.

 

[unclepetey]

I am sure that is just what the Flex 85 love to hear. Oh, by the way,

I wish you were at NJ too!

The grass is always greener you TOOL.

Easy there Tiger.

 

[FastJP4]

Was anyone ever able to figure out the reasoning as to why they did a two year limit - unlike anywhere else?

 

[Photoflight]

I'm guessing it was just an arbitrary number they came up with. I wish they had unlmiited recall time.

Hopefully things have bottomed out. Listening to and reading the news all I know is that

Michael Jackson finally died.

And there is supposedly several hundred billion dollars worth of commercial real estate loans coming soon that were mortgaged the same way as the housing market.

Fingers crossed for everyone!

 

[netjetwife]

Fast, while we're waiting for Flex folks to reply, I can think of a few...but none of them are good... :erm: BTW, was the 2 yr limit a previously established company policy or was it just decided with the recent furloughs?

I'm sorry your pilots are getting a raw deal on the recall issue. The unlimited amount at NJ and CS might be too much to hope for as an industry standard, at this point, but I wish there was at least a recognized minimum that was realistic for protracted recessions. AA gets 7 yrs.

The Flex situation does serve to reinforce to the Options pilots the need to get good furlough rules in their contract...along with the plight of their own pilots on the street.... unfortunately. Condolences to all furloughed pilots and their families. NJW

Photo, I echo your sentiments! Fingers crossed here, too!

 

[FalconPilot69]

The two year recall was what they did back in 2002 - 2003. Noone really knows where that number came from.

 

[Flex-ible]

The two year recall was what they did back in 2002 - 2003. Noone really knows where that number came from.

I would guess that they are just thinking it makes it easier on them. After two years, it's up to the furloughed employee to apply for openings rather than up to management to track them down to offer a recall.

 

[netjetwife]

I'm guessing it was just an arbitrary number they came up with....

Previous policy or recent decision, on second thought, I guess it doesn't matter. Either way it's un-nerving. Had the number been chosen earlier it could have been improved to meet the obvious need--but they chose not. A 2yr limit imposed at the time of the furloughs was just as deliberate. Apparently, they don't care....

It doesn't look arbitrary to me. It looks calculated. It seems they chose the least amount of time they thought they could get away with, without causing too big of an uproar among the workforce or raising eyebrows too high in business circles. I say this because all frac managers (and the rest of us) know that it could take several years to fully recover.

And what difference would a year or so more make to Flex management, anyway, especially compared to the huge difference it can definitely mean to those pilots who got furloughed?! Flex pilots surely deserve the going rate, whether we're talking pay or recall rights? 2 yrs is insulting, IMO.
Good Luck!!
NJW

 

[netjetwife]

I would guess that they are just thinking it makes it easier on them. After two years, it's up to the furloughed employee to apply for openings rather than up to management to track them down to offer a recall.

For those who think Unions are all one-sided, this is an excellent example of the difference organization can make. During the 7yrs my husband was on AA's recall list it is the Union that kept in touch, not the company. Everything gets laid out in a contract and that is better and easier for both sides. Having legal rights does come with responsibilities, but it's worth it. Case in point, unlimited w/Union oversight or 2yrs left up to management.

Flex-ible, you've raised an interesting point that didn't occur to me (reasons above) but considering the severity of the recession, what are the chances Flex would be recalling many of the pilots before the 2yr deadline? Wouldn't the result (for management) be essentially the same if they'd made it 3 yrs instead? Compared to what that extra year could mean to a furloughed pilot...it still seems wrong. That said, realistically, pilots (and their spouses--reminding myself) shouldn't expect managers to consider the pilotgroup's interest over their own. That's what contracts are for. Best wishes, NJW

 

[glasspilot]

It's not about record keeping after two years.

Two years is the longest the company figures a guy can sit around without flying and still be worth bringing back to fly the line. Past that the guy will be so out of currency that it will take a crazy amount of time in the sim just to get him to the point where he can be safe in the plane on the line.

They can't make rules saying a two year recall if you don't fly in the meantime and 7 years if you fly pistons and unlimited if you fly turbine. The unions would never accept that as it doesn't respect seniority.

Am I the only one who thinks of this stuff? Jeeze.. record keeping? Really? Come on team, a little effort out there, seriously...

 

[doh]

Glass, you're probably right.

 

[FastJP4]

I would guess that they are just thinking it makes it easier on them. After two years, it's up to the furloughed employee to apply for openings rather than up to management to track them down to offer a recall.

I highly doubt that Flex-ible. With the unlimited ability of information at one's fingertips - if there was any hint of a recall - the Flex 85 would be well aware of it.

Nope, I think there is some other reason.

 

[netjetwife]

I don't think Glass is right. Unlimited recall rights at NJA hasn't been a contentious contract issue and Shares management unilaterally made unlimited their company recall policy. Neither place seems concerned.

In the USAF, when pilots make Major they are required to do a 3yr staff assignment (normally no flying involved) to gain other types of command experience. My husband's refresher course for the F16 was 3 months, including air-to-air and air-to-ground sorties. Actual flying, more than sims. Looking back, it wasn't a big deal. Hard work, yes, but not crazy. I apply that term to our family of 4 living in a tiny 1 br apt...

Considering that re-training, even after a lengthy absence, is an accepted practice for the military, the airlines, and both Union and non-Union frac companies, I don't see it as a credible reason for Flex management to give furloughed pilots only a 2 yr chance to resume their career-- that was interrupted thru no fault of their own. NJW

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

It's not about record keeping after two years.

Two years is the longest the company figures a guy can sit around without flying and still be worth bringing back to fly the line. Past that the guy will be so out of currency that it will take a crazy amount of time in the sim just to get him to the point where he can be safe in the plane on the line.

They can't make rules saying a two year recall if you don't fly in the meantime and 7 years if you fly pistons and unlimited if you fly turbine. The unions would never accept that as it doesn't respect seniority.

Am I the only one who thinks of this stuff? Jeeze.. record keeping? Really? Come on team, a little effort out there, seriously...

Wrong, when you have a company that has a pilot group without any power to protect their members the company is free to do anything they want. The company could have put anything in that furlough package and the pilots couldn't have done a thing about it. And they know it that's why some of them are passing around union cards again. Those seniors guys don't even have job security. They are all just a training board away from being fired.

 

[netjetwife]

Good post, Eyeam! Contracts aren't just about pay; every aspect of the job is covered. A pilot's career is a major investment so it makes sense to protect it and to have a voice at the table when decisions are made that profoundly impact you and your family. By not going to the table you send a message that you don't care enough to bother, so why should management?

Good point about security. With all the regulations and opportunities for something to go wrong, it's nice to have a due process that must be followed if questions arise. When it comes to training issues, the NJ CBA is industry-leading to protect the pilots because training standardization can be a problem when it isn't handled in-house.

Flex pilots have the choice of representing themselves or leaving everything to the whim of management. Had the Flex pilots being given a vote about recall rights, who would have chosen 2 yrs over 7, or better yet, unlimited like the majority of their industry peers have? Regards, NJW