Is the worst over at Flexjet?

[Outta Here]

Not be negative and pessimistic but not many so called analysts saw any of this coming and I don't expect them to know when the market is "Bottomed Out." Lets see what the Fall brings though I am not looking forward to it because I thinks its going to be a bloodbath! I think the ride has only just began.

 

[FalconPilot69]

I call BS here....

I am sorry, if you can't pass the ride, you don't deserve the job, ie. Colgan Air. The training center has better things to do than just bust people for the sake of doing so. Those who think this are just plain ignorant to what goes on in the school house. Everyone I have ever dealt with has been nothing but stand up individuals who hold me to the same standards as the guy next to me. Quite frankly, I don't want to fly with anyone who can't pass the ride. All they are doing is putting my lively hood and yours at risk.

They are all just a training board away from being fired.

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

I am sorry, if you can't pass the ride, you don't deserve the job, ie. Colgan Air. The training center has better things to do than just bust people for the sake of doing so. Those who think this are just plain ignorant to what goes on in the school house. Everyone I have ever dealt with has been nothing but stand up individuals who hold me to the same standards as the guy next to me. Quite frankly, I don't want to fly with anyone who can't pass the ride. All they are doing is putting my lively hood and yours at risk.

If this was simply about passing or failing a check ride than I agree with everything that you said in your post. The training board is being used as a weapon against people who don't "fall in line" or are "troublemakers." Atleast the guys at netjets had the intenstinel fortitude to protect their jobs. There are capts/first officers at flex that are scared $hitless and they are answering their phone in the rest time(like 2 am) amongst other things. A pilot shouldn't have worry about retribution in training if they bring up grievances about the company. You completely ignored the rest of my post the bottom line is those guys don't have any job security because they believed management would take care of them.

 

[FalconPilot69]

OK, here is the rest of your post. I still stand by what I said before. The TRB is just that, a training review board, consisting of the instructor who did the ride, the supervisor of training, the ACP and a regular line pilot. They review the information provided from not only the recently failed ride but also their past training history and discuss the outcome with the pilot there at the TRB. From there, the pilot tells the TRB how much time they need to be ready. Then the TRB makes their recommendation to DG. There have been times when the TRB said no to retrain and DG said yes. I have never heard of him going the other way. Also keep in mind that there is no regulatory requirement for Flex to give us a warm up then the check. The company has chosen to do this.

While it is true we do not have "protection," the training center is not the long arm of the law for management. That is where I call BS.

Those seniors guys don't even have job security. They are all just a training board away from being fired.

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

Also keep in mind that there is no regulatory requirement for Flex to give us a warm up then the check. The company has chosen to do this.

That's the least they can do considering what they have taken away and what you guys don't have.

 

[bunman45]

I have never had any trouble with the training department. I've never felt like anybody was out to get me or trying to help management get rid of people. People that fail rides and get fired are usually people that have had training issues in the past.

 

[netjetwife]

Is there an agreed upon, written list of rules and procedures that Flex must follow when training questions arise so that each pilot can be assured of fair and equal treatment? If so, would one of the Flex pilots please share them with your fellow FI members so those interested could learn more about Flex. If not, would the Flex pilots prefer to have a system of due process spelled out?

Have the Flex pilots seen, or heard of, the training section in the NJ pilots' CBA? My husband is especially pleased with how it turned out. He tells me that it's very fair and one of the most pilot-friendly out there. If the Flex pilots have some type of self-help representation, council of peers, etc, you guys could check it out for possible suggestions.

 

[doh]

There is a section in the manual dealing with failed check rides. There are two reasons I'm not going to post it here. One, it's a bad idea to post proprietary info on a public board like this. Two, it's too much typing. I will say that the stuff in there is about the same as at other places I've flown. I will also say you are best off showing up ready for the ride, but that is also the same everywhere.

 

[jonjuan]

I will also say you are best off showing up ready for the ride, but that is also the same everywhere.

LOL-when's the last time Flight Safety failed anyone whose check cleared?

 

[brokeflyer]

LOL-when's the last time Flight Safety failed anyone whose check cleared?

only if the FAA is riding.....then they "hold" the check until the next day.

 

[cherry20's]

only if the FAA is riding.....then they "hold" the check until the next day.

First hand knowledge I take it broke... :laugh:

 

[FalconPilot69]

Flex pilots are not paying for their training, therefore they don't fall under the same weak rules. Our training department looks at every guy/gal coming in with the same attitude. If you can't pass the ride, you don't belong. They won't put their jobs and family at risk just like all of us here won't. That is the difference. You pass a guy at FSI and you don't fear reprisal. You bust a guy at FSI, and that might very well happen.

LOL-when's the last time Flight Safety failed anyone whose check cleared?

 

[brokeflyer]

First hand knowledge I take it broke... :laugh:

no, but when i was an examiner that's what I seen...lol...nearly perfect checkrides...

it was similar to seeing planes only being written up on the last leg back to home base....

 

[ArtVandalay]

The bottom line on the training department at Flexjet is that way too many people have lost their jobs due to failed checkrides and, not once has anyone considered it a training department problem. Since my time here, I can recall quite a few firings from checkrides yet, I have never heard of a failure that eventually resulted in a subsequent pass. This should raise flags that our training dept needs to be looked at very thoroughly but, that will never happen until lawyers or the FAA gets involved.

 

[netjetwife]

Art, thanks for the shared insight. Training is an issue that reaches across all the fracs. Lack of standardization (including in-house programs) is a problem that NJASAP has worked w/NJA on, going back to their 1108 days. Clear, evenly applied rules and due process when questions arise are basic rights that all frac pilots deserve. Contrary to what some posters believe, fair-minded managers welcome the input pilots bring to the training discussion because they realize that pilots have a vested interest in the final product and support improvements.

I hope those pilots who have seen questionable firings will consider standing together to insist on fair treatment for all in their group. When managers are free to ruin a pilot's career, without any oversight, there's no reason to think their attitude will be confined to training alone. Indeed, it seems to be evident in the arbitrary 2 yr recall given to furloughed pilots at Flex when the industry standard is unlimited. I think you guys deserve parity. NJW

 

[CL300Pilot]

Rant on.............

First off NJW, our training is standardized. Second, Art, you obviously have never been an instructor otherwise you would not be talking out your exhaust. Having been in the center and having had one bust and me personally doing the retrain to see them pass, I can say you don't have a clue. Also, I have been on the side where I had the individual who went to the TRB and came in for additional training. After the pilots requested amount of time, I was unable to sign the individual off on anything after 2 1/2 hours in the sim. The sad thing is that I went over exactly what they busteed before. I personally know of 2 TRB's in the recent months in which the pilots went to the TRB, did their retrain and are back flying the line. Ask around, I am sure you can find out who it is. The bottom line, before you go spewing BS about the center, find out the facts first because you are completely oblivious to the goings on in the center. Also, there is not a single instructor who gets any pleasure on one of our pilots busting a ride. We actually take it personally.

Rant off.....

 

[FraxJockey]

Sorry, but this strikes a nerve. Art has NO idea what he is talking about. There have been MANY unsat checkrides that have been subsequently passed with further training. Those who know who I am and what I do can attest to my first hand knowledge. Even the best of us have bad days and or brainfarts. This in no way means you are fired. Get a clue ART.

 

[netjetwife]

CL300 and FJ, I tend to take a broader view of issues than many of the pilots. To me standardization encompasses written and agreed-upon rules (preferably laid out at the bargaining table where pilots can represent their own interests) which assure a line pilot that due process will be followed in every case. Do instructors at Flex have anything against such an "insurance policy"? Wouldn't a system that followed prescribed contract rules prevent potential problems and the perception of unfairness that Art must have gotten somewhere? Considering that even in sports, from Little League games to professional events, they abide by official rules and referees, why would Flex pilots not want a similar guarantee for the very serious issue of their career? Thanks for the friendly discussion, NJW

 

[CL300Pilot]

NJW,

While we are as you know not a unionized shop like NJA, every pilot has access to the same rules that the instructors follow for Flex, NJA, Shares, Flops and any other operator. It is called the 8400.10. This is the FAA manual on how a check ride is to be handled, what the instructors are allowed and not allowed to do and any other requirements for ATP checkrides. Each instructor not only has one, but is also required by the FAA to follow this very guide. All simulator instructors are checked yearly by the FAA to ensure quality. In our case, each instructor is checked without another instructor as the pilots being checked.

With regards to Art, you appear to be an intelligent women. If you go back on any posting by Art regarding Flex, it is always in the view of a conspiracy theory. He spews more garbage than Mount Vesuvius.

With regards to rules and referees, the same follows for my initial posting regarding the check ride criteria. If someone busts, there are specific actions that are taken which the company follows to the letter. Any pilot who has an issue with an instructor is welcome to bring it up to their ACP, CP as well as the supervisor of training.

The bottom line is that the instructors are not out to get anyone. Believe me, if they were, the biggest headaches with the company would have been gone a long time ago and those same people casting stones would be thanking the instructors. Even before I became an instructor, I never had a single issue with any of my rides. I always found the guys to be straight forward and totally honest with what I was going to see over then next 2 hours of my ride. Is Flex perfect? Hell no it's not. It is not however what is being painted by some. People need to use their own intellect to decifer the b.s. from the reality.

Hope this helps clear up your thoughts.

Cheers

To me standardization encompasses written and agreed-upon rules (preferably laid out at the bargaining table where pilots can represent their own interests) which assure a line pilot that due process will be followed in every case. Do instructors at Flex have anything against such an "insurance policy"? Wouldn't a system that followed prescribed contract rules prevent potential problems and the perception of unfairness that Art must have gotten somewhere? Considering that even in sports, from Little League games to professional events, they abide by official rules and referees, why would Flex pilots not want a similar guarantee for the very serious issue of their career? Thanks for the friendly discussion, NJW

 

[GSXR600]

The folks at the training center are great guys and will go out their way to get you thru......I don't know why the bashing against these guys!!! Back to the topic, Is the worst over at Flex yet?......Saw on APC that no more furloughs for now.

 

[doh]

CL300, well said!

 

[hammer2]

Turn on the camera. Solves everthing!

 

[CL300Pilot]

Yes, you could ask for the camera but no it solves nothing. The quality is so poor that you cannot even see what the instruments are doing. All you can really see is whether there is good CRM. I tried on one session.

However, for all of the conspiracy theorists out there, let's look at the facts though shall we? We have 370 pilots give or take a few. That equates to approximately 740 checkrides a year. This year to my knowledge, and this is what we hear on the line since I am not in the school house anymore, we have had approximately 5 TRB's. Out of those 5, I only know of one person who was terminated after their second failed checkride post TRB. Now let's remember that in order to fail a 135 checkride, you have to bust 3 maneuvers within the ride. So to be terminated, you have to have busted 6 items within 2 checkrides. I don't want to put my family in an airplane with that guy, do you?

Now I realize that I am no mathmatician, but if I am right, that works out to a .0027 percent termination rate from folks not being able to pass their rides from the training center. For those wondering, my math was 1 divided into 370 since this is July. If you actually take the fact that we are in the 7th month, that percentage is lower.

Now the comment has been made regarding the fact that we don't hear about people going to the TRB and passing the second ride. If you busted your ride and went to the TRB, would you be going around bragging about? I don't think so. The bottom line is that those who are bashing the center are either as clueless as a Darwin award winner or know that their skills are so shoddy at best, that they themselves are worried that they can no longer pass the rides that all of us pass on a regular basis.

Take a look at you own skills before casting stones.

Turn on the camera. Solves everthing!

 

[Rouge Warrior]

CL300, well said!

+2

Now back on topic, when do we start seeing recalls?

 

[GSXR600]

On Judgement Day!.......(End of mankind)

 

[John MClain]

The bottom line on the training department at Flexjet is that way too many people have lost their jobs due to failed checkrides and, not once has anyone considered it a training department problem. Since my time here, I can recall quite a few firings from checkrides yet, I have never heard of a failure that eventually resulted in a subsequent pass. This should raise flags that our training dept needs to be looked at very thoroughly but, that will never happen until lawyers or the FAA gets involved.

It's almost unbelievable how someone who is so uninformed and ignorant can come on here and post such dribble. You are so clueless it's comical. Your probably one of the liabilities we have currently flying at Flex that the training center hasn't been able get rid of yet. Study those memory items and limitations Ace.

Your avatar is dead on cantstandya.

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

Your probably one of the liabilities we have currently flying at Flex that the training center hasn't been able get rid of yet.

You were pretty believable up to the point you said this. I thought you guys don't get rid of people. I thought you just do check rides and call it how you see it? Why would you try to "get rid" of someone if all those instructors over there are such great people?

 

[Nolife]

Your probably one of the liabilities we have currently flying at Flex that the training center hasn't been able get rid of yet. Study those memory items and limitations Ace.

Ironically you just played into his hands. Check.

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

+2

Now back on topic, when do we start seeing recalls?

When the scumbags who are taking overtime.........STOP.

 

[CL300Pilot]

Eye,

I think what he meant was that this guys skills are so marginal and yet he manages to squeek by in training. Again, if you think that the center would be doing managements dirty work, just read my last post above. The number just don't match what this uninformed individual is spewing.

When one of our guys/gals busts a ride, it is a pain in the arse for the instructors. I am still hedging my bets that this guy is just scared because his/her flying skills are less than marginal and he/she only knows it is a matter of time before their lack of flying ability catches up with them.

You were pretty believable up to the point you said this. I thought you guys don't get rid of people. I thought you just do check rides and call it how you see it? Why would you try to "get rid" of someone if all those instructors over there are such great people?