Is the worst over at Flexjet?

[FalconPilot69]

The two year recall was what they did back in 2002 - 2003. Noone really knows where that number came from.

 

[Flex-ible]

The two year recall was what they did back in 2002 - 2003. Noone really knows where that number came from.

I would guess that they are just thinking it makes it easier on them. After two years, it's up to the furloughed employee to apply for openings rather than up to management to track them down to offer a recall.

 

[netjetwife]

I'm guessing it was just an arbitrary number they came up with....

Previous policy or recent decision, on second thought, I guess it doesn't matter. Either way it's un-nerving. Had the number been chosen earlier it could have been improved to meet the obvious need--but they chose not. A 2yr limit imposed at the time of the furloughs was just as deliberate. Apparently, they don't care....

It doesn't look arbitrary to me. It looks calculated. It seems they chose the least amount of time they thought they could get away with, without causing too big of an uproar among the workforce or raising eyebrows too high in business circles. I say this because all frac managers (and the rest of us) know that it could take several years to fully recover.

And what difference would a year or so more make to Flex management, anyway, especially compared to the huge difference it can definitely mean to those pilots who got furloughed?! Flex pilots surely deserve the going rate, whether we're talking pay or recall rights? 2 yrs is insulting, IMO.
Good Luck!!
NJW

 

[netjetwife]

I would guess that they are just thinking it makes it easier on them. After two years, it's up to the furloughed employee to apply for openings rather than up to management to track them down to offer a recall.

For those who think Unions are all one-sided, this is an excellent example of the difference organization can make. During the 7yrs my husband was on AA's recall list it is the Union that kept in touch, not the company. Everything gets laid out in a contract and that is better and easier for both sides. Having legal rights does come with responsibilities, but it's worth it. Case in point, unlimited w/Union oversight or 2yrs left up to management.

Flex-ible, you've raised an interesting point that didn't occur to me (reasons above) but considering the severity of the recession, what are the chances Flex would be recalling many of the pilots before the 2yr deadline? Wouldn't the result (for management) be essentially the same if they'd made it 3 yrs instead? Compared to what that extra year could mean to a furloughed pilot...it still seems wrong. That said, realistically, pilots (and their spouses--reminding myself) shouldn't expect managers to consider the pilotgroup's interest over their own. That's what contracts are for. Best wishes, NJW

 

[glasspilot]

It's not about record keeping after two years.

Two years is the longest the company figures a guy can sit around without flying and still be worth bringing back to fly the line. Past that the guy will be so out of currency that it will take a crazy amount of time in the sim just to get him to the point where he can be safe in the plane on the line.

They can't make rules saying a two year recall if you don't fly in the meantime and 7 years if you fly pistons and unlimited if you fly turbine. The unions would never accept that as it doesn't respect seniority.

Am I the only one who thinks of this stuff? Jeeze.. record keeping? Really? Come on team, a little effort out there, seriously...

 

[doh]

Glass, you're probably right.

 

[FastJP4]

I would guess that they are just thinking it makes it easier on them. After two years, it's up to the furloughed employee to apply for openings rather than up to management to track them down to offer a recall.

I highly doubt that Flex-ible. With the unlimited ability of information at one's fingertips - if there was any hint of a recall - the Flex 85 would be well aware of it.

Nope, I think there is some other reason.

 

[netjetwife]

I don't think Glass is right. Unlimited recall rights at NJA hasn't been a contentious contract issue and Shares management unilaterally made unlimited their company recall policy. Neither place seems concerned.

In the USAF, when pilots make Major they are required to do a 3yr staff assignment (normally no flying involved) to gain other types of command experience. My husband's refresher course for the F16 was 3 months, including air-to-air and air-to-ground sorties. Actual flying, more than sims. Looking back, it wasn't a big deal. Hard work, yes, but not crazy. I apply that term to our family of 4 living in a tiny 1 br apt...

Considering that re-training, even after a lengthy absence, is an accepted practice for the military, the airlines, and both Union and non-Union frac companies, I don't see it as a credible reason for Flex management to give furloughed pilots only a 2 yr chance to resume their career-- that was interrupted thru no fault of their own. NJW

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

It's not about record keeping after two years.

Two years is the longest the company figures a guy can sit around without flying and still be worth bringing back to fly the line. Past that the guy will be so out of currency that it will take a crazy amount of time in the sim just to get him to the point where he can be safe in the plane on the line.

They can't make rules saying a two year recall if you don't fly in the meantime and 7 years if you fly pistons and unlimited if you fly turbine. The unions would never accept that as it doesn't respect seniority.

Am I the only one who thinks of this stuff? Jeeze.. record keeping? Really? Come on team, a little effort out there, seriously...

Wrong, when you have a company that has a pilot group without any power to protect their members the company is free to do anything they want. The company could have put anything in that furlough package and the pilots couldn't have done a thing about it. And they know it that's why some of them are passing around union cards again. Those seniors guys don't even have job security. They are all just a training board away from being fired.

 

[netjetwife]

Good post, Eyeam! Contracts aren't just about pay; every aspect of the job is covered. A pilot's career is a major investment so it makes sense to protect it and to have a voice at the table when decisions are made that profoundly impact you and your family. By not going to the table you send a message that you don't care enough to bother, so why should management?

Good point about security. With all the regulations and opportunities for something to go wrong, it's nice to have a due process that must be followed if questions arise. When it comes to training issues, the NJ CBA is industry-leading to protect the pilots because training standardization can be a problem when it isn't handled in-house.

Flex pilots have the choice of representing themselves or leaving everything to the whim of management. Had the Flex pilots being given a vote about recall rights, who would have chosen 2 yrs over 7, or better yet, unlimited like the majority of their industry peers have? Regards, NJW

 

[Outta Here]

Not be negative and pessimistic but not many so called analysts saw any of this coming and I don't expect them to know when the market is "Bottomed Out." Lets see what the Fall brings though I am not looking forward to it because I thinks its going to be a bloodbath! I think the ride has only just began.

 

[FalconPilot69]

I call BS here....

I am sorry, if you can't pass the ride, you don't deserve the job, ie. Colgan Air. The training center has better things to do than just bust people for the sake of doing so. Those who think this are just plain ignorant to what goes on in the school house. Everyone I have ever dealt with has been nothing but stand up individuals who hold me to the same standards as the guy next to me. Quite frankly, I don't want to fly with anyone who can't pass the ride. All they are doing is putting my lively hood and yours at risk.

They are all just a training board away from being fired.

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

I am sorry, if you can't pass the ride, you don't deserve the job, ie. Colgan Air. The training center has better things to do than just bust people for the sake of doing so. Those who think this are just plain ignorant to what goes on in the school house. Everyone I have ever dealt with has been nothing but stand up individuals who hold me to the same standards as the guy next to me. Quite frankly, I don't want to fly with anyone who can't pass the ride. All they are doing is putting my lively hood and yours at risk.

If this was simply about passing or failing a check ride than I agree with everything that you said in your post. The training board is being used as a weapon against people who don't "fall in line" or are "troublemakers." Atleast the guys at netjets had the intenstinel fortitude to protect their jobs. There are capts/first officers at flex that are scared $hitless and they are answering their phone in the rest time(like 2 am) amongst other things. A pilot shouldn't have worry about retribution in training if they bring up grievances about the company. You completely ignored the rest of my post the bottom line is those guys don't have any job security because they believed management would take care of them.

 

[FalconPilot69]

OK, here is the rest of your post. I still stand by what I said before. The TRB is just that, a training review board, consisting of the instructor who did the ride, the supervisor of training, the ACP and a regular line pilot. They review the information provided from not only the recently failed ride but also their past training history and discuss the outcome with the pilot there at the TRB. From there, the pilot tells the TRB how much time they need to be ready. Then the TRB makes their recommendation to DG. There have been times when the TRB said no to retrain and DG said yes. I have never heard of him going the other way. Also keep in mind that there is no regulatory requirement for Flex to give us a warm up then the check. The company has chosen to do this.

While it is true we do not have "protection," the training center is not the long arm of the law for management. That is where I call BS.

Those seniors guys don't even have job security. They are all just a training board away from being fired.

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

Also keep in mind that there is no regulatory requirement for Flex to give us a warm up then the check. The company has chosen to do this.

That's the least they can do considering what they have taken away and what you guys don't have.

 

[bunman45]

I have never had any trouble with the training department. I've never felt like anybody was out to get me or trying to help management get rid of people. People that fail rides and get fired are usually people that have had training issues in the past.

 

[netjetwife]

Is there an agreed upon, written list of rules and procedures that Flex must follow when training questions arise so that each pilot can be assured of fair and equal treatment? If so, would one of the Flex pilots please share them with your fellow FI members so those interested could learn more about Flex. If not, would the Flex pilots prefer to have a system of due process spelled out?

Have the Flex pilots seen, or heard of, the training section in the NJ pilots' CBA? My husband is especially pleased with how it turned out. He tells me that it's very fair and one of the most pilot-friendly out there. If the Flex pilots have some type of self-help representation, council of peers, etc, you guys could check it out for possible suggestions.

 

[doh]

There is a section in the manual dealing with failed check rides. There are two reasons I'm not going to post it here. One, it's a bad idea to post proprietary info on a public board like this. Two, it's too much typing. I will say that the stuff in there is about the same as at other places I've flown. I will also say you are best off showing up ready for the ride, but that is also the same everywhere.

 

[jonjuan]

I will also say you are best off showing up ready for the ride, but that is also the same everywhere.

LOL-when's the last time Flight Safety failed anyone whose check cleared?

 

[brokeflyer]

LOL-when's the last time Flight Safety failed anyone whose check cleared?

only if the FAA is riding.....then they "hold" the check until the next day.