IS SWAPA the "New" USAPA???? Arrogance abound!

[CHQ Pilot]

I don't know why it hasn't been brought up here before, but both the WN and F9 guys are pi$$'n in the wind when they try to position themselves in this fight.

If you don't know, in the December 2007 FAA reauthorization bill, there was in inclusion that said essentially - 'If two merging pilot groups are represented by the same union, the union rules apply. If the pilot groups are from different unions, the formula of the allegheny-mohawk merger must apply'. No matter how much moaning and posturing the two sides here go though, they have to follow the A/M rules. That means a 'fair and equitable' merger - not stapling, not 'hiring when available', and not DOH.

This part of the FAA reauthorization was somewhat overlooked at the time because of the President also signing the age 65 rule at the same time (December 2007). But it was introduced by Senator McKascill (sp?) from Missouri as part of the bill in response to the mergers at TWA/AA and US/AWA. So any new mergers from that point forward, including a possible WN/F9 merger, will be legally constrained to follow the Allegheny/Mohawk rules. So sorry southwest guys, there will be no stapling this time.

HAL

Not to bring this back up, but it is not as simple that if one carrier buys another then there has to be a SLI. If SWA buys Frontier and operates them entirely seperate without merging operations, then it would not be covered by A-M. (ref H10678, Sec 817, Part 4)

 

[afhercdriver]

Of course I am trying to stir the pot, that is what I do. But, I also think this is soooo one sided. Really, it is ridiculous, and the F9 pilots do NOT deserve a staple for what their mangement has done to them. That is key. Now, I don't think they should be thrown in relative seniority, but something inbetween, something that gives them SOME CREDIT for longevity. Now the Lynx guys, you can staple them and give everyone some protection. Even they would like that....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Nor do they deserve to be unemployed looking for a job in a terrible economy. What is so wrong with a staple? F9 captains will make the same money and F9 FOs will get a windfall. I think SWA deserves some credit for running an airline for 38 years without furloughing even a single pilot. Can the same be said for RAH? I don't think so. Being a SWA FO for a couple of years, I can say it is a great place to work. We take care of each other and that includes the new guys. Our battle cry is Save Craig Johnson. Our most junior man. If the F9 guys join us their most junior guy will be who we protect. Just my thoughts while on vacation in Branson, MO. Go-carts here we come!

Jim

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Sounds like they are going to play it like DAL did with NWA. Get labor to the table make them sort it out and then have a very smooth merger.

Looks like RA and LM might has started a trend!

 

[StopNTSing]

You mean Sydney? How about Rome? I am too senior to have to go to Nairobi (actually we don't fly there yet). You guys will have to get some INTL experience first before you "dream" of going anywhere near Nairobi. How about Canada first? Can you convince your management that you are good enough? How about Mexico? They are actually pretty nice down there most of the time. I bet you could do it. Let the F9 guys show you how, fairly.


Bye Bye--General Lee

....and we're the cocky ones, eh GL?

How many SWA dudes did you see wading in and speaking out of their rectums in the DL-NW merger threads? I'm sure it's way too much to expect the same restraint from you (and FDJ2, for that matter)? The number and volume of people flapping their gums who don't even have a dog in this fight (and having an axe to grind with SWA doesn't qualify, BTW) has been setting new standards for ignorance on display at FI.

Geez, I broke my own rule.....I just fed the troll. :smash:

 

[General Lee]

....and we're the cocky ones, eh GL?

How many SWA dudes did you see wading in and speaking out of their rectums in the DL-NW merger threads? I'm sure it's way too much to expect the same restraint from you (and FDJ2, for that matter)? The number and volume of people flapping their gums who don't even have a dog in this fight (and having an axe to grind with SWA doesn't qualify, BTW) has been setting new standards for ignorance on display at FI.

Geez, I broke my own rule.....I just fed the troll. :smash:

Since when do you own the threads? I can't have an opinion? You own the threads, just like you want to own F9? Go on your own SWAPA website if you don't want my opinion. And, since I don't have a dog in this fight, that might mean something---like a neutral voice. But, you can't handle the truth, and we can all see why you wouldn't want a true "neutral" (arbitrator) to view a case like this. Hey, you are afraid of the outcome. We went through it at DL/NWA, and it went well for most of us.

Bye now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Nor do they deserve to be unemployed looking for a job in a terrible economy. What is so wrong with a staple? F9 captains will make the same money and F9 FOs will get a windfall. I think SWA deserves some credit for running an airline for 38 years without furloughing even a single pilot. Can the same be said for RAH? I don't think so. Being a SWA FO for a couple of years, I can say it is a great place to work. We take care of each other and that includes the new guys. Our battle cry is Save Craig Johnson. Our most junior man. If the F9 guys join us their most junior guy will be who we protect. Just my thoughts while on vacation in Branson, MO. Go-carts here we come!

Jim

Jim,

Thank you for the civility, first of all. Well, it just doesn't work out like that anymore. I know SWA has the upperhand here, but F9 is not about to liquidate. If they were, then maybe a staple would be adequate. F9 brings stuff to the table, and they would make SWA stronger. You can't discount that. The F9 pilots are attached to their assets, according to their own contract that was not dumped by the BK judge. You cannot discount that. You guys need to get used to the fact that mergers or aquisitions are no longer staple jobs---and a new law by Bond/Mcaskill affirms that also. If Gary Kelly wants to dump the deal over this, he will. He hasn't done it yet. Take care.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[shearedshaft]

12,900 posts. General Lee, give it a rest, there isn't a single person participating in these threads that have the slightest interest in what you have to say.

I know that it stings that you make less than the SWA guys with lower seniority, but can't you just drown your sorrows in alcohol and get away from the keyboard for a couple of days?

If each of your posts took 2 minutes to compose and write, you have spent 430 hours just typing on this website. I'm sure you read too, so let's triple it. You have spent the equivalent of a solid workyear on Flightinfo.

If you were a SWA captain, that would be worth more than $220,000.

Please go away. At least for a little while.

 

[FDJ2]

Not to bring this back up, but it is not as simple that if one carrier buys another then there has to be a SLI. If SWA buys Frontier and operates them entirely seperate without merging operations, then it would not be covered by A-M. (ref H10678, Sec 817, Part 4)

Except that both PWA's don't allow that and require integration. Hence A-M.

 

[afhercdriver]

Jim,

Thank you for the civility, first of all. Well, it just doesn't work out like that anymore. I know SWA has the upperhand here, but F9 is not about to liquidate. If they were, then maybe a staple would be adequate. F9 brings stuff to the table, and they would make SWA stronger. You can't discount that. The F9 pilots are attached to their assets, according to their own contract that was not dumped by the BK judge. You cannot discount that. You guys need to get used to the fact that mergers or aquisitions are no longer staple jobs---and a new law by Bond/Mcaskill affirms that also. If Gary Kelly wants to dump the deal over this, he will. He hasn't done it yet. Take care.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I am trying to look at this from both sides. I have a lot of friends at TWA who took it in the shorts. I don't wish that on anyone especially the F9 guys/gals. However, at the same how can we as a group not protect our most junior guy? If there did happen to be a furlough as a result of the acquistion, would it be fair if it turned out to be Craig Johnson? That's the problem we have. We have to protect our own first then worry about the F9 guys. After they are on our list, they will enjoy the same protections we give to our most junior guys. I really think the problem is with our seniority based system that we all live or die by. I don't pretend to know the answers. Maybe F9 would be better off with RAH but if I were in the their position, I'm not sure if I would be willing to take that chance. One thing for sure, things are changing at F9. I wish them the best. Now, back to the Go-carts and then Silver Dollar City!

Jim

 

[General Lee]

12,900 posts. General Lee, give it a rest, there isn't a single person participating in these threads that have the slightest interest in what you have to say.

I know that it stings that you make less than the SWA guys with lower seniority, but can't you just drown your sorrows in alcohol and get away from the keyboard for a couple of days?

If each of your posts took 2 minutes to compose and write, you have spent 430 hours just typing on this website. I'm sure you read too, so let's triple it. You have spent the equivalent of a solid workyear on Flightinfo.

If you were a SWA captain, that would be worth more than $220,000.

Please go away. At least for a little while.

Attacking me for my post count, when I have been on here for YEARS. Good one. Anyway, you can't get past the fact that you guys are now seen as arrogant jackholes, and this also was a way to TRY to get your TA settled, which also has failed. Hey, sometimes you get what you ask for, and sometimes you do NOT.

And, I do have a few more days off before my next trip to Stuttgart. That means more time to watch this all unfold. As far as your Southwest Captain salary, I do fine where I am at, and my wife has a great job making a lot more than that herself. Thanks for caring. Have a great one, and keep the attacks coming, they are amusing.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General,

I am trying to look at this from both sides. I have a lot of friends at TWA who took it in the shorts. I don't wish that on anyone especially the F9 guys/gals. However, at the same how can we as a group not protect our most junior guy? If there did happen to be a furlough as a result of the acquistion, would it be fair if it turned out to be Craig Johnson? That's the problem we have. We have to protect our own first then worry about the F9 guys. After they are on our list, they will enjoy the same protections we give to our most junior guys. I really think the problem is with our seniority based system that we all live or die by. I don't pretend to know the answers. Maybe F9 would be better off with RAH but if I were in the their position, I'm not sure if I would be willing to take that chance. One thing for sure, things are changing at F9. I wish them the best. Now, back to the Go-carts and then Silver Dollar City!

Jim

Jim,

Again, thanks for being adult about this. Some of your buddies on here cannot. Anyway, sure, you have to look out for your bottom guy, but an arbitrator wouldn't look at it that way, he/she would look at it in a fair way. That is key. If F9 didn't bring much to the table, then an arbitrator would see that and make the ruling. If they did, which appears the case here, then a staple offer would be like throwing dirt at possible future employees. Is that the way you would want to be welcomed anywhere? Sure, you have to protect your own, but throwing dirt only compounds the hatred later on. At NWA they are still mad about the redbook, greenbook deals that went on, and Kelly says he didn't want labor discord, but allows SWAPA to litterally krap on the incoming F9 pilots. That is disgraceful.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[firstthird]

General Lee,

the deal is off. I guess RAH and F9 can now continue along their way and SWA will continue along ours.

firstthird

 

[General Lee]

General Lee,

the deal is off. I guess RAH and F9 can now continue along their way and SWA will continue along ours.

firstthird

There you have it. Well, I still think your offer suked, but now you can focus on that TA.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[shearedshaft]

As far as your Southwest Captain salary, I do fine where I am at, and my wife has a great job making a lot more than that herself. Thanks for caring.

Yeah, but at SWA one doesn't need a wife to make more than than them to do fine.

Your post count shows a bit of OCD, at least to me. 480 hours of posting means that you've never had a thought that you've left unexpressed.

Not the best way to go through life.

 

[get2flyin]

I'm no big fan of Southwest Airlines but I like SWAPA protecting junior SWA pilots from possible negative outcomes from this. No current SWA pilot should be furloughed as a result of this purchase/merger.

AWA said the same thing about USAir. That worked out REAL well for everyone.

 

[DH2WN]

AWA said the same thing about USAir. That worked out REAL well for everyone.

Interesting since that was a merger not a buyout. Not apples to apples. F9 guys didn't deserve anything but a staple with pay and base protection.

 

[get2flyin]

Interesting since that was a merger not a buyout. Not apples to apples. F9 guys didn't deserve anything but a staple with pay and base protection.

Someday, you oughta check out the SEC filing. They fail to say anything about a "Merger". But hey...it's all ancient history now and they are all one big happy family!

 

[Benjamin Dover]

That's the understatement of the year. Offer them a staple and then state that you're not done bargaining.

Pushing the auction back to get an agreement shows how interested SWA is in this transaction. Ultimately they'll probably press forward with or without the pilots coming to an agrement.

Perhaps it's best for all involved to lock in some contractual gains with a JCBA and a seniority integration process with a date certain integrated list by either DCC or SOC.

Guess you had it all figured out ....

By the way, I talked to one of our SWAPA reps yesterday morning. FAPA pres. was supposed to be on conference call with SWAPA at 5pm evening before midnight deadline night before last. He finally got around to calling at 7:30. And then never budged from DOH or nothing. But it's SWAPA who is arrogant right?

Wonder how the average line guy is feeling today over there about union representation?

 

[FlyinPiker]

Guess you had it all figured out ....

By the way, I talked to one of our SWAPA reps yesterday morning. FAPA pres. was supposed to be on conference call with SWAPA at 5pm evening before midnight deadline night before last. He finally got around to calling at 7:30. And then never budged from DOH or nothing. But it's SWAPA who is arrogant right?

Wonder how the average line guy is feeling today over there about union representation?

Sounds like the FAPA president must have known something you don't.

So many ASSumptions out there right now and NO ONE seems to have all the facts...although they think they do.

 

[C-21Pilot]

It seems to me, both unions stood up for their pilots, so I can not fault them for that. In fact, I applaud both FAPA and SWAPA for looking out for their own. If there was more time to negotiate, rather than a quick, last second, get it done now, deadline, maybe the outcome would have been different. Maybe not.

Does anyone know who the presiding judge was ?

 

[T2Bus]

Nobody can be as bad as USAPA.....

 

[tie1on]

everyone seems to be missing the big picture here, this was just another ATA scenario. Just another way of doing it.

 

[General Lee]

everyone seems to be missing the big picture here, this was just another ATA scenario. Just another way of doing it.

Also, they tied in a new TA for their payrates with this. So, not only does SWA lose dominance in DEN, a place to put 40 new 737s, quicker upgrades, and slots/gates in ATL, DCA, and more in LGA----they also have to continue negotiating for that ellusive TA. Good luck to them on that....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[weasel_lips]

Really, both of these groups demanded unrealistic outcomes. It just amazes me. No, there shouldn't be DOH or even full relative mix, but a pure staple is just ridiculous. Why don't you let neutrals (arbitrators) figure it out? I know why: You are AFRAID of the outcome. Let people on the outside determine what is fair. Gary Kelly says "PLEASE, Ya'll. Just do it...." Nah, it won't happen, the SWA guys won't allow it.... If so, let Republic come around and beat SWA in DEN at their own game.


Bye Bye--General Lee

13,000 posts. maybe you should try eharmony.com or something.

 

[Indapool]

13,000 posts. maybe you should try eharmony.com or something.

Classic :beer:

 

[redflyer65]

General are you serious?

Just when I think you might have it figured out you do something like this.

Here's some news for you...Frontier is in bankruptcy. That in itself changes everything going forward. This is not a health company(like NWA) with similiar longetivy and seniority. Do you not get those facts?

These guys are close to liquidation. They can't find any financing at all. They have great employees and had a good run but its over. That's not arrogance but the facts.

Your arguements are not even close to holding water, but nice try.

Would your union stand up for the most junior pilot like SWAPA did?

What about the recent scope relief?

 

[General Lee]

13,000 posts. maybe you should try eharmony.com or something.

Wow, that was a classic. You can't come up with an adequate response, so you turn to a put down, which makes you look even dumber.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General are you serious?

Just when I think you might have it figured out you do something like this.

Here's some news for you...Frontier is in bankruptcy. That in itself changes everything going forward. This is not a health company(like NWA) with similiar longetivy and seniority. Do you not get those facts?

These guys are close to liquidation. They can't find any financing at all. They have great employees and had a good run but its over. That's not arrogance but the facts.

Your arguements are not even close to holding water, but nice try.

Would your union stand up for the most junior pilot like SWAPA did?

What about the recent scope relief?

Huh? So why again did Kelly want F9? He obviously wanted it for some reason. What is classic here is that Republic will use F9 to make sure SWA loses more money in DEN. And genius, can you tell me why SWA guys wouldn't want arbitration? If F9 didn't bring anything to the table, like you say, then SWA guys wouldn't have had anything to worry about, right? Right? You bet I am right. Your facts are wrong.

And, the recent scope relief given (added 76 seaters already on order for DL) was in exchange for BETTER furlough protection for our bottom guy. Yup. It gave the bottom guys some protection that they did not have before. Is it perfect? Maybe not, but it does add pain to DL if they do decide to furlough, and guess what hotshot? They haven't decided to do that so far. Guess it works? Thanks for playing.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[The Prussian]

Wow, that was a classic. You can't come up with an adequate response, so you turn to a put down, which makes you look even dumber.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Take's one to know one...

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Sounds like the FAPA president must have known something you don't.

So many ASSumptions out there right now and NO ONE seems to have all the facts...although they think they do.

Sorry to intrude, but more details for you Piker:

We just heard from SWAPA pres. The reason FAPA couldn't make it for the 1700 call was because he was busy meeting with creditors. Their (F9)team said no go till 1930 without the boss. And deadline at 2400. Doesn't seem like he/FAPA even wanted the deal, or were they just calling Gary Kelly's bluff or did FAPA guy get sold by creditors he just met with that Republic deal was better? Who knows, but what is the job of a union president - to meet with corporate creditors at a crucial time for his membership, or to look out for his constituents at a crucial time? I bet many F9 guys feel let down. But just ASSkin Piker, what do you think the priority of a union president should be? Management, shareholders, creditors or membership?