• NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Is ALPA Really Going To Allow This To Happen At UAL??

AA767AV8TOR

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Posts
258
Total Time
12,000
This is our careers if UAL’s management pulls this off!

AA767AV8TOR

www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-mon-outsourcing-pilots-unitemar16,0,5199687.story

chicagotribune.com

MONDAY FOCUS TRAVEL AND TOURISM

Clipping union's wings

United-Aer Lingus plan to outsource pilots on overseas flight

By Julie Johnsson Tribune reporter March 16, 2009. United Airlines is preparing to outsource some international flying, a move likely to spark an uproar as the carrier opens contract talks with its pilots April 9.

Other U.S. carriers and their unions are closely watching a venture being created by Chicago-based United and Aer Lingus that will use non-union crews on new flights from Washington-Dulles International Airport to Madrid, set to begin in March 2010. The carriers plan to add service to two other cities in 2011.

United will provide marketing muscle to the partnership as well as passengers from Dulles, its second-largest hub. The Irish carrier will contribute three new Airbus A330 jets to the Europe-based venture and recruit pilots who aren't employees of either airline to fly them.

If the venture is successful, it could be a model for other carriers to outsource trans-Atlantic flying, cutting labor costs and potentially undermining unionized pilots, a group with the greatest clout over airline operations, analysts said. It also could encourage United to seek broader partnerships with larger European players, such as Germany's Lufthansa.

Some aviation observers question how such potentially contentious and structurally awkward arrangements are financially feasible.

"It's hard to imagine how this makes money," said aviation consultant Robert Mann. He described the labor issues it raises as "incendiary" to airline workers.

The venture also raises questions about safety, since it's unclear who would regulate an airline not based in the home country of a parent carrier. U.S. limits on foreign ownership would not apply either, because the partnership would be based overseas.

"The regulatory framework isn't as airtight as it should be on these issues," said Brian Havel, associate dean and director of the International Aviation Law Institute at DePaul University's College of Law. "It's an entirely unintended and brilliant consequence of Open Skies," a 2008 trade agreement that allows European and U.S. carriers to offer international flights between those regions.

United thinks the model is viable and will expand its global reach.

"Madrid is a market we would not be able to serve on our own," United spokeswoman Jean Medina said.

She dismissed any suggestion that underqualified pilots would be at the controls of the flights.

"We and all of our partners meet or exceed all FAA requirements for flying commercial aircraft," Medina said.

The nation's No. 3 carrier also won't rule out exploring similar partnerships with other European carriers.

"We will continue to look for opportunities to profitably expand our international network using our own aircraft as well as through code-sharing arrangements," Medina said.

United's pilots have the contractual right to handle its flying. But one exception to this rule, negotiated during United's three-year bankruptcy, applies to joint ventures formed by United and Star Alliance partners, such as Aer Lingus.

United's pilots union is furious with the setup and has formed an alliance with counterparts at Aer Lingus to fight it.

"It's a major slap to employees," said Jay Heppner, a Boeing 777 captain for United and spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association.

Major airlines worldwide outsource flying to smaller cities to regional carriers, which tend to hire pilots at the beginning of their careers to fly turbo-props or jets with fewer than 100 seats.

And British Airways last year spun off OpenSkies, a subsidiary that uses new hires rather than unionized employees to man its all-business-class flights between New York and Paris and Amsterdam.

American Airlines pilots, who also are embroiled in contract talks, are watching the new ventures with concern.

"It does look like carriers are probing at ways to get around unionized pilots on their seniority lists," said Gregg Overman, spokesman for the union. "Clearly, we have huge problems with that."

jjohnsson@tribune.com
 

flyf15

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Posts
548
Total Time
5700
"Madrid is a market we would not be able to serve on our own," United spokeswoman Jean Medina said.


Instead of Madrid, insert any one of hundreds airports across the country that used to see mainline service and now only see RJs and you'll see where this is going.... that same phrase has been said so many times in so many situations it makes me sick.

Unfortunately, many pilots at majors thought RJs were beneath them and didn't see how outsourcing them would harm their careers. Now since they've let the airlines run so wild with it that its the norm, they're now trying it out with international flying... and its going to completely bite these senior widebody guys that had the "when they came for someone else's job, I said nothing" attitude.


Imagine a day where United Airlines doesn't fly any airplanes. All domestic passengers carried by "regionals," connecting at the hubs to a myriad of codeshare international carriers. It could happen.

This isn't the beginning either, its already been happening for years right in front of our faces. There are passengers out there buying tickets on "United" and go to the airport to find out they're flying United Express (ie: GoJet) to ORD and then Lufthansa to FRA and beyond. Thousands of dollars of revenue, dozens of pilots jobs worth of short/small and long haul/ widebody flying, and they're never setting foot on United metal.

Scope needs to be simple. "All passengers flying on X airline and all flights carrying X airline's flight number will be flown by pilots on X airline's seniority list". No exceptions.
 
Last edited:

JohnDoe

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2002
Posts
840
Total Time
4500
Of course they will let it happen.

Their bag of tricks only consists of giant blow-up rats and "catchy" slogans.
 

Monster Buck

Go bigger or die trying!
Joined
May 9, 2004
Posts
766
Total Time
10K+
Someone please tell me quickly that this is not as bad as it looks and that it will never takeoff. Otherwise ALPA national and international better find a way to kill this. I am sure the answer will be Ok what else will you give us from your contract?
 

Stan

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2004
Posts
107
Total Time
Lots
Instead of Madrid, insert any one of hundreds airports across the country that used to see mainline service and now only see RJs and you'll see where this is going....

Unfortunately, many pilots at majors thought RJs were beneath them and didn't see how outsourcing them would harm their careers. Now since they've let the airlines run so wild with it that its the norm, they're now trying it out with international flying and its going to completely bite these senior widebody guys that had the "when they came for someone else's job, I said nothing" attitude.


Imagine a day where United Airlines doesn't fly any airplanes. All domestic passengers carried by "regionals," connecting at the hubs to codeshare international carriers. It could happen.

This isn't the beginning either, its already been happening for years right in front of our faces. There are passengers out there buying tickets on "United" and go to the airport to find out they're flying GoJet to ORD and then Lufthansa to FRA and beyond. Thousands of dollars of revenue, dozens of pilots jobs worth of short/small and long haul/ widebody flying, and they're never setting foot on United metal.


Two things. United management has wanted to be a virtual airline going all the way back to the mid 80's. Every year they get closer to their eventual goal.

As far as mainline pilots not wanting to fly RJ's, that is wrong. The mainline pilots thought flying props was beneath them and those airlines eventually got RJ's and grew into what they are today. This should have stopped before the first airline put their name on the side of a metro, shorts, or whatever. Once that was done the cat was out of the bag.
 

Whine Lover

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2005
Posts
1,497
Total Time
12000+
"The Irish carrier will contribute three new Airbus A330 jets to the Europe-based venture and recruit pilots who aren't employees of either airline to fly them."

Sad Truths:

-
ALPA national is rendered powerless, by design, over this multi-national enterprise.

- U.S. law, with some exceptions and also quite by design, will be rendered a moot point in this venture.

- UAL-ALPA, it's Contract, and it's Pilots are effectively neutered by this agreement. ( These are not UAL aircraft. )

- Scumbags will be lining up at the door to fly for whatever this Irish-American-Euro-Trash outfit is going to be called...And they will be quite happy to fly these A330's for $99.99 per hour as PIC. The copilots will be paid $23.00 dollars an hour and they will be ecstatic because they will be 200 hour wunder-kinds with their brand new MPL.


Welcome to The Brave New World.....Accept your reality now and the future will be so much less painful.

Resistance is futile.



YKMKR
 

Lear70

JAFFO
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Posts
7,487
Total Time
4abeer
"The regulatory framework isn't as airtight as it should be on these issues," said Brian Havel, associate dean and director of the International Aviation Law Institute at DePaul University's College of Law. "It's an entirely unintended and brilliant consequence of Open Skies," a 2008 trade agreement that allows European and U.S. carriers to offer international flights between those regions.
Anyone remember when Rez and PCL and I along with Fins and a bunch of other guys were screaming about this last year when GW signed it?

You had to know this was coming... And with UAL's Scope give-back with this loophole, there's absolutely NOTHING that ALPA can do to stop it.

The only thing you can do is force it out through negotiations and the only thing that will likely do that is a strike by UAL pilots, when authorized, in another year or two.

Thanks, GW. Not that I think Obama is any better, but the business-friendly tactics of GW are going to haunt us for years to come in aviation... :(
 

Whine Lover

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2005
Posts
1,497
Total Time
12000+
"...the only thing that will likely do that is a strike by UAL pilots."

Correct.

Unfortunately that won't happen due to a variety of factors.

One of them being....UAL could probably have the place fully staffed and up and running again in about a month with a combination of in-house scabs/Management and the flocks of willing scum out there ready to sell their Souls.

Oh, and would'nt UAL love that?

No contracts, no pay scales, no work rules.....Yum,yum.


YKMKR
 
Last edited:

eaglesview

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2008
Posts
1,350
Total Time
13,000
I don't know why there is so much shock and dismay!! Here is a clue, ALPA is a limp organization. They have no teeth and no forsight. Welcome aboard all you tranny folks who think you have found the answer.
 

Fubijaakr

Seniority is Forever
Joined
Dec 7, 2003
Posts
2,537
Total Time
Enough
Just ask a Midwest pilot how outsourcing works. 3/4s of them are on the street and Republic has taken their flying in an "outsource" deal.

Look out Frontier, you're next. You took Republic's money...they'll take your flying.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 

ATR-DRIVR

Used Register
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Posts
1,555
Total Time
18k+
"Madrid is a market we would not be able to serve on our own," United spokeswoman Jean Medina said.

Hey Jean,
Don't go there then!!
 

BrickTop

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Posts
554
Someone please tell me quickly that this is not as bad as it looks and that it will never takeoff. Otherwise ALPA national and international better find a way to kill this. I am sure the answer will be Ok what else will you give us from your contract?


2 words. "SCOPE RELIEF"
 

zman

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 15, 2002
Posts
186
Total Time
blowme
"The Irish carrier will contribute three new Airbus A330 jets to the Europe-based venture and recruit pilots who aren't employees of either airline to fly them."

Sad Truths:

- ALPA national is rendered powerless, by design, over this multi-national enterprise.

- U.S. law, with some exceptions and also quite by design, will be rendered a moot point in this venture.

- UAL-ALPA, it's Contract, and it's Pilots are effectively neutered by this agreement. ( These are not UAL aircraft. )

- Scumbags will be lining up at the door to fly for whatever this Irish-American-Euro-Trash outfit is going to be called...And they will be quite happy to fly these A330's for $99.99 per hour as PIC. The copilots will be paid $23.00 dollars an hour and they will be ecstatic because they will be 200 hour wunder-kinds with their brand new MPL.


Welcome to The Brave New World.....Accept your reality now and the future will be so much less painful.

Resistance is futile.



YKMKR


Thats exactly why this will work! Unless UAL pilots are willing to strike the place into the ground to stop it, which they wont. You will eventually see American pilots like this being "farmed" out.
 

nwaredtail

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Posts
622
Total Time
9000+
Of course they will let it happen.

Their bag of tricks only consists of giant blow-up rats and "catchy" slogans.

Come on now, don't forget about that magazine with pictures of guys with mustaches having meetings. ;)
 

Paul R. Smith

Fender Bender
Joined
Jan 15, 2004
Posts
722
Total Time
4:30
I say its time for the big guns.


SOS. All alpa carriers and support for non-alpa carriers who wish to jump on the bandwagon.

If this is not a reason for SOS then nothing is.
 

Max Powers

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 26, 2005
Posts
1,136
Total Time
9000+
This is why I voted for Obama......With him at the helm this has a very low chance of succeeding! It doesn't mean Tilton and his cronies can't try but they will have the govt. and the unions against him every step of the GD way.
 

Lear70

JAFFO
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Posts
7,487
Total Time
4abeer
This is why I voted for Obama......With him at the helm this has a very low chance of succeeding! It doesn't mean Tilton and his cronies can't try but they will have the govt. and the unions against him every step of the GD way.
I usually agree with you, but this one I'm going to have to disagree with.

The only realistic way Obama could stop it is if he repealed Open Skies completely, which opens a whole NEW can of worms...

It's going to take "burning down the house" at several Legacies to get out of the Draconian rules set up during bankruptcy to keep this a viable career. I give it 50/50 if today's pilots have the stomach for it... I hope they do.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
Wow... the self defeatist and whiners are in abundance.....

Recall the UAL pilots in 1985 successfully struck and won. They've done it, and can do it again.

More importantly, all the cry babies on this thread have one thing in common....

"What is ALPA going to do?"

"ALPA had better...."

"If ALPA doesn't, then we are all screwed"


No one.... has stated.... "when and where do we strike. Count me in. I am solid, unified and ready to fight for my career"


Time to man up.......


With threats like this are excellent opportunies to rally the support and get in lock step with your fellow pilots. You don't have to be a UAL pilot to stand with the UAL pilots.......
 

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
Antitrust questions dog airline alliances

by: D.R. STEWART World Staff Writer
Saturday, March 14, 2009
3/14/2009 3:51:51 AM

A congressman, concerned about the growing power of global airline alliances and their effect on air fares, has introduced legislation calling for a federal study of alliances and the antitrust immunity they receive.

An airline industry trade group, however, says withdrawing antitrust immunity from airline alliances would carry a heavy price tag and cost the industry 15,000 jobs.

"Arbitrarily terminating antitrust immunity will have a harsh impact on airline employees and cause a ripple effect across the travel and tourism industry at a time when U.S. employment is escalating rapidly," said James C. May, chairman of the Air Transport Association, in a letter last week to Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn.

In February, Oberstar introduced H.R. 831, "A Bill to Ensure Adequate Airline Competition." Its provisions have since become attached to the FAA Reauthorization Bill, which is being considered by the House.

"I have become increasingly concerned with the decline of competition in international markets, particularly between the United States and Europe," Oberstar said. "These markets used to be served by independent carriers from most European countries and by a number of U.S. carriers. Increasingly, the market has come under the control of three alliances composed of one or more U.S. carriers and several European carriers."

Oberstar, chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said three major airline alliances have come to dominate world airline service. They include the Star Alliance led by United Airlines, the SkyTeam alliance formed by Delta Air Lines and the oneworld alliance, whose members include American Airlines.

Alliance members, Oberstar said, have shifted from cooperating on ticketing and terminal lounges to asking the government to grant members of the alliance antitrust immunity to jointly plan services and fares across international markets.

Star and SkyTeam have been granted both U.S. and European Union antitrust immunity. An application for immunity by oneworld's American Airlines, British Airways and Iberia was filed last August, and a decision is expected this year.

Oberstar's legislation calls for a study of airline alliances by the Government Accountability Office. The GAO study would investigate:


  • The legal requirements and policies followed by the Department of Transportation in deciding whether to approve alliances and grant antitrust exemptions.
  • Whether there should be changes to the legislative authority under which DOT determines whether to grant antitrust immunity.
  • Whether the DOT should exercise the right it has reserved to amend, modify or revoke any antitrust immunity previously granted.

"These alliances have strong market power," Oberstar said. "Combined, the Star, SkyTeam and oneworld alliances account for almost 80 percent of the total world airline capacity, 78 percent of world revenue passenger kilometers and 73 percent of passengers carried. These three alliances control over 87 percent of the traffic between the United States and Europe."

Michael Boyd, president of the Boyd Group International, an Evergreen, Colo., airline consultant, said alliances enhance passenger traffic and are "generally" beneficial.

"When American Airlines code shares with oneworld's Japan Airlines and Cathay Pacific, it gives them access to places they would never get to. That's fine," Boyd said. "The question is, when does an airline become a lift provider and lose its individuality? If Iberia flies a route and shares the revenue as if American flew it, it's going to hurt American jobs."

Greg Overman, spokesman for American's Allied Pilots Association, which represents 13,000 pilots, said Oberstar's legislation makes sense.

"In principle, the idea of a GAO study is in keeping with what we have been saying all along, which is: Let's take a long look at this," he said.




D.R. Stewart 581-8451
don.stewart@tulsaworld.com



Copyright © 2009, World Publishing Co. All rights reserved
 
Top