Is ALPA Really Going To Allow This To Happen At UAL??

[Skippy]

yes but usually whenever UAL expands it's b/c they are codesharing thru/with th airline that is flying the route---- IE, UAL is not getting any new planes, using united's pilot group, or creating new jobs b/c of it.


They need major contract language training-- i've seen not only better contract language at the regional level, but better rules in general ( not all but soem of the important ones) IE--- on reserve at a particular regional if you show up for duty--BAM! 5 hours of pay-------or if you DH-- BAM 5 hours of duty--- but yet at UAL you DH to cvg to ord for your duty day woohoo :58 at 32 and hour-----

FIX IT

 

[AAflyer]

The cluelessness of so many posters is really shining in this thread. And for the guy(s) that claim to be UA pilots, have you called your rep or attending a union meeting or done ANYTHING besides read flightinfo.com to get any facts concerning this? I mean, you guys are acting like this is "new" information. We knew about this weeks ago.

1) First, the ALPA bashers. You guys are bashing ALPA over this? GMAFB. If I didn't have ALPA on the property, they'd be using UNITED airplanes with non-United pilots on these routes. ALPA is the only thing that is preventing that from happening.

2) I hate to say it, but this whole thing is just another code share. If you're posting on this thread and your airline has a codeshare with ANY other airline, you're going to have to explain to me how this is any different than the codeshare relationship you have with your partners. It's just another airline flying routes you could be flying. Yup, it sucks.

3) If there is a pilot group that really screwed up, unfortunately it's the Aer Lingus guys. It's THEIR airplanes that are being taken away from THEM and being flown by ANOTHER PILOT GROUP.

Most of you guys are getting worked up into a lather because because you see Aer Lingus pilots getting their aircraft taken away to be flown by non-union pilots. Great. Get worked up over that and support those guys because it does suck for them. Keep that from happening at your airline. If you have ALPA on your property, it probably can't happen anyway.

On this end of the pond however, I can't think of a major airline that doesn't have a codeshare with a foreign carrier with routes that could otherwise be flown by U.S. pilots. If that's what you're upset about......great. Where were you a decade ago? And why are you only bashing UA?

Very Valid points not to mention this has already been tried and is successful.. Open Skies airline has bypassed BALPA. They fly 757s across the Atlantic without British Airways pilots.

This is now a shot directly across OUR bow. The implications are far reaching. This is not just about UAL, everyone from AA to SWA better watch this, it will impact all of us.

AA

 

[Max Powers]

PIC on the A330, in sunny Spain? Sign me up! I like the idea of a fresh start-up....the type of operation that doesn't need union interference.

You truly are a Bush Republican than. Nice Avitar shows your true colors. A scab in waiting I bet.

 

[ROSWELL41]

The cluelessness of so many posters is really shining in this thread. And for the guy(s) that claim to be UA pilots, have you called your rep or attending a union meeting or done ANYTHING besides read flightinfo.com to get any facts concerning this? I mean, you guys are acting like this is "new" information. We knew about this weeks ago.

1) First, the ALPA bashers. You guys are bashing ALPA over this? GMAFB. If I didn't have ALPA on the property, they'd be using UNITED airplanes with non-United pilots on these routes. ALPA is the only thing that is preventing that from happening.

2) I hate to say it, but this whole thing is just another code share. If you're posting on this thread and your airline has a codeshare with ANY other airline, you're going to have to explain to me how this is any different than the codeshare relationship you have with your partners. It's just another airline flying routes you could be flying. Yup, it sucks.

3) If there is a pilot group that really screwed up, unfortunately it's the Aer Lingus guys. It's THEIR airplanes that are being taken away from THEM and being flown by ANOTHER PILOT GROUP.

Most of you guys are getting worked up into a lather because because you see Aer Lingus pilots getting their aircraft taken away to be flown by non-union pilots. Great. Get worked up over that and support those guys because it does suck for them. Keep that from happening at your airline. If you have ALPA on your property, it probably can't happen anyway.

On this end of the pond however, I can't think of a major airline that doesn't have a codeshare with a foreign carrier with routes that could otherwise be flown by U.S. pilots. If that's what you're upset about......great. Where were you a decade ago? And why are you only bashing UA?

I hope you are more upset about this than your post conveys. Did you see what happened with Midwest Airlines? If you guys don't stop this at UAL, we will all be on the street in short order. In this scenario, the guy flying the 777 or 744 is no longer safe from outsourcing. THIS IS DIFFERENT!

 

[eaglesview]

it's never too late for the behind the scenes deal to be made---- AT TSA, we made it very clear that if you are going to be terminated or disciplined severely, not to expect the union to trade stuff, like grievances---- as in we wont fire him if you make such and such grievance go away--- we would just say screw it, we'll win them both- it's just a matter of time--- unfortunately the UAL local hasnt had magmnts number for -- how does that email go 5 years 9 months 2 weeks, 2 days 15 hours, 12 minutes and 4 seconds.... GMAFB

we've had so many damn ual/alpa slogans we could have a david letterman top ten:

we're taking it back
fix it
2172

please enter your own to make 10

i mean we cant even get our message board back up

I see, how's that Go Jet thing working out?

 

[ualdriver]

I hope you are more upset about this than your post conveys. Did you see what happened with Midwest Airlines? If you guys don't stop this at UAL, we will all be on the street in short order. In this scenario, the guy flying the 777 or 744 is no longer safe from outsourcing. THIS IS DIFFERENT!

Stop what, Roswell? Stop United management from taking UAL airplanes and flying them with non-UAL pilots? OK, we've done that.

Stop Aer Lingus pilots from giving up their jets so that non Aer Lingus pilots don't fly them? Ummm.....OK. How do you suggest we do that?

Stop all code sharing? Ummmm......OK. If you're upset about code sharing then why are you directing that comment only to UAL (you said "you guys")? What airline do you work for and what are you doing on your end?

 

[ROSWELL41]

Stop what, Roswell? Stop United management from taking UAL airplanes and flying them with non-UAL pilots? OK, we've done that.

Stop Aer Lingus pilots from giving up their jets so that non Aer Lingus pilots don't fly them? Ummm.....OK. How do you suggest we do that?

Stop all code sharing? Ummmm......OK. If you're upset about code sharing then why are you directing that comment only to UAL (you said "you guys")? What airline do you work for and what are you doing on your end?

Yes this is a codeshare. You are correct. I work for a carrier that UAL codeshares with also. We have taken over a large portion of UAL's domestic flying. I want to fly for UAL or another legacy someday. If this 'trial balloon' is successful, I doubt there will be many viable legacies left to work for.

Let's examine some facts about this codeshare:
-Aer Lingus will supply A330 aircraft.
-The new carrier will fly with UAL/Aer Lingus code from IAD-MAD to start.
-A new air carrier certificate is being started, will it be a U.S. carrier or an EU carrier?
-Non UAL or Aer Lingus pilots will be hired to fly these routes.

Look, many pilots who have long since retired saw no harm in allowing some CRJs to fly at Comair in 1994. 15 years later the majority of legacy domestic flights are on 'regional jet' type aircraft. This is the proverbial camel sticking its nose under the tent. I am not picking on you guys at UAL. It just happens that unfortunately, your management has decided to try this out. You guys are the first to see this type of outsourcing and your failure to stop it could be catastrophic. Just like in 1994 with the CRJ, the power is in the hands of the mainline pilot group.

 

[ualdriver]

You guys are the first to see this type of outsourcing and your failure to stop it could be catastrophic. Just like in 1994 with the CRJ, the power is in the hands of the mainline pilot group.

Roswell41-

This issue had everyone's full attention- weeks ago when this issue first came out. Why it's suddenly getting attention now on this forum is beyond me. And we have protections in our current contract that prevent what happened to the Aer Lingus guys from happening to us. However, concerning codeshares, the camel is already in the tent unfortunately. I suspect mainline pilots will have as much success rolling back existing codeshares as they will rolling back RJ flying.

 

[eaglesview]

Stop what, Roswell? Stop United management from taking UAL airplanes and flying them with non-UAL pilots? OK, we've done that.

Stop Aer Lingus pilots from giving up their jets so that non Aer Lingus pilots don't fly them? Ummm.....OK. How do you suggest we do that?

Stop all code sharing? Ummmm......OK. If you're upset about code sharing then why are you directing that comment only to UAL (you said "you guys")? What airline do you work for and what are you doing on your end?

Are you trying to convey that you are OK with this? Is it OK if ANA since they are a code share partner, leases a 747 and starts flying SFO HNK with non union pilots from a third party?? This is different, very different. Niether code share partner if flying the airplane. That is different and it is huge and so far WE(UAL Pilots)/ALPA have failed to stop it.

 

[ROSWELL41]

Everyone is rehashing this because the Chicago Tribune ran a full page story about this on the front page of its business section yesterday.

 

[ualdriver]

Are you trying to convey that you are OK with this? Is it OK if ANA since they are a code share partner, leases a 747 and starts flying SFO HNK with non union pilots from a third party?? This is different, very different. Niether code share partner if flying the airplane. That is different and it is huge and so far WE(UAL Pilots)/ALPA have failed to stop it.

That I'm OK with what, eagle? Aren't you an ALPA basher anyway? If guys like you had your way, ALPA wouldn't be on the property and instead of this just being another codeshare, we'd have non-UA pilots flying UA airplanes on our end, too. So it's kind of pointless debating an issue such as this with a guy like you, is it not? ALPA is a "limp" organization that can't do anything, right? So what is there to debate with you?

 

[ualdriver]

Everyone is rehashing this because the Chicago Tribune ran a full page story about this on the front page of its business section yesterday.

Ah. I didn't know that.

 

[eaglesview]

That I'm OK with what, eagle? Aren't you an ALPA basher anyway? If guys like you had your way, ALPA wouldn't be on the property and instead of this just being another codeshare, we'd have non-UA pilots flying UA airplanes on our end, too. So it's kind of pointless debating an issue such as this with a guy like you, is it not? ALPA is a "limp" organization that can't do anything, right? So what is there to debate with you?

I am an ALPA basher make no mistake about it. However maybe I have not made myself clear. My beef is with ALPA national not our volunteer union reps. I do believe we could be doing just as well in house without ALPA. In the end if you are indeed an United Pilot then surell you can see the difference between this and other code share agreements that are in place.

 

[ualdriver]

I am an ALPA basher make no mistake about it. However maybe I have not made myself clear. My beef is with ALPA national not our volunteer union reps. I do believe we could be doing just as well in house without ALPA. In the end if you are indeed an United Pilot then surell you can see the difference between this and other code share agreements that are in place.

Yes I can. Don't mistake me trying to address/explain this issue and not jumping up and down and getting all emotional about the issue as some lack of concern. Obviously with openers getting exchanged next month, negotiations starting after that, and mediation starting (more than likely) at the end of August, this needs to be addressed.

However, I don't see how you can be upset about this issue on one hand, and then say you have a beef with ALPA National and think we could do "just as well in house" without ALPA. ALPA is the ONLY organization representing pilots' interests at the national level with any reasonable chance of influence. If something like this isn't something that needs to be addressed at both the LOCAL and NATIONAL level, I don't know what is.

 

[eaglesview]

Yes I can. Don't mistake me trying to address/explain this issue and not jumping up and down and getting all emotional about the issue as some lack of concern. Obviously with openers getting exchanged next month, negotiations starting after that, and mediation starting (more than likely) at the end of August, this needs to be addressed.

However, I don't see how you can be upset about this issue on one hand, and then say you have a beef with ALPA National and think we could do "just as well in house" without ALPA. ALPA is the ONLY organization representing pilots' interests at the national level with any reasonable chance of influence. If something like this isn't something that needs to be addressed at both the LOCAL and NATIONAL level, I don't know what is.

Ok you have your history with ALPA and I have mine. I do belive we could be doing just as well in house as is being shown at SW and AA. All that is niether here nor there. If you are right and ALPA is the best way forward then great, I would love to be wrong. In my opinion they , ALPA, are in bed with to many pilot groups that do not have our best intrest in mind. All this has been hashed through before. In the end it is the pilot group themselves that will make it or not. The tie tack is not relevant. For this season I laugh at the excitement the tranny folks on here have for ALPA. If the pilot group stays the same so will the result.

With that said good luck to us both going forward. Strap in it's going to be a wild ride.

 

[ROSWELL41]

So how does UAL ALPA plan to stop this? Could this be ploy to get concessions on the low end scope in exchange for dropping this assault on the upper end scope? Ex. "Let us give the ERJ-190/CRJ-1000 to the regionals and we will get rid of this A330 deal."

 

[eaglesview]

So how does UAL ALPA plan to stop this? Could this be ploy to get concessions on the low end scope in exchange for dropping this assault on the upper end scope? Ex. "Let us give the ERJ-190/CRJ-1000 to the regionals and we will get rid of this A330 deal."

No one but the scumbags on Wacker drive could know the answer to those questions. Time will tell. In the end it's all about the scope as has been mentioned before.

 

[ualdriver]

So how does UAL ALPA plan to stop this? Could this be ploy to get concessions on the low end scope in exchange for dropping this assault on the upper end scope? Ex. "Let us give the ERJ-190/CRJ-1000 to the regionals and we will get rid of this A330 deal."

I can't imagine any situation where RJ scope would be relaxed further than it already has.

 

[Cobra17]

Of course they will let it happen.

Their bag of tricks only consists of giant blow-up rats and "catchy" slogans.

Don't forget the full page ads telling everyone how dysfunctional the company is.

 

[eaglesview]

Don't forget the full page ads telling everyone how dysfunctional the company is.

The company is dysfunctional. Not much question there.