Interview lunch went well I think

[FracCapt]

This is not corporate, but I am an F/O on a 727 flying night cargo, hired at 550 hrs, upgrading this summer with ATP mins and 1000 hrs in the right seat, never had a problem with low time, all about who you know and how u fit in.

I agree with the others, I am living proof that you can be hired with no time.

First of all....it's a bit different since you flew/fly -135's in the military. That's not nearly the same as a 550 hour CFI. Second....what company is going to upgrade you to PIC with 1500tt on a 727?

 

[Stearmandriver]

OK, let me have it! Am I right or wrong?
SCT

PS- Don't compare military pilots to what we are doing. It's apples and oranges.

Well, I agree that experience is very valuable, but I'm not sure you can put a number on it like that. To flatly say that no 1000 hr pilot is qualified to sit in the right seat of a jet is kind of unfair, I think. I've flown with many fo's that were hired around 1000 hrs, and sure, some of them were a little behind in terms of keeping up with airline ops, but I never really doubted their ability to keep the plane upright and get it on the ground in one piece if I suddenly keeled over.

Also, why can't we use military pilots as a comparison? They deal with the same things we do... wx, mx issues, tough schedules etc... plus there's that little combat thing on top of it. If a low time mil guy is good enough to act as pic while getting shot at, why wouldn't a low time civ guy be qualified to drive from A to B?

 

[wingnutt]

Also, why can't we use military pilots as a comparison?

easy...how many 1000 hour civilian pilots do you know that have nothing more than C152/172 time, now compare that to the kind of time most 1,000 hour military guys have

 

[gear_guy]

there is no way a 1000 hr pilot should be in the right seat of a professionally flown GV corporate jet in my opinion!

Wow! I guess I should have got another couple thousand hours of c-152 time before I made the BIG jump to jets. Let's face it. It's not rocket science. People put way to much emphasis on Total time if you asked me. Not enough on quality of time.

 

[SCT]

GearGuy,

I agree with you in that you can not lump every 1000 hr pilot into one "experience level" basket. But I still stand behind my statement that a 1000hr pilot does not belong in the right seat of a Gulfstream, Challenger, Falcon, etc.... An average GA trained 1000hr pilot does not have the experience and skills to be a part of a professionally trained crew in my opinion. (Yes, you can train anyone to raise/lower the gear and talk on the radio.) If a company does hire a 1000hr pilot for such a 91 job, they are more interested in saving money then professionalism and safety of their passengers. I do not see this trend from F500 companies that I've been around.

This is just my opinion and believe me, I'm the first to admit I'm just an idiot line pilot.

SCT

 

[English]

SCT,

How do you explain, then, how Eagle, CoEx, and every other regional airline out there is able to train 1000 hour pilots to 121 standards, in Canadairs and Embraer jets? I know for a fact most of these 1000 hour new hires do more than work the gear and radios.

 

[SCT]

English,

Like I said before, this is only my meager opinion. And I'm only speaking from a 91/135 perspective. I do not see a trend in the F500 departments hiring 1000hr pilots to fly their company CEOs, executives and clients. (There are exceptions) From what I see from the big 91 departments, most are more interested in safety then saving money . Most seem to be hiring experienced co-captians for their company a/c.
Any thoughts,
SCT

 

[English]

I agree. Many of my friends (three in fact) that have recently been hired at top companies have been hired as co-captains. I just don't agree with this statement...

But I still stand behind my statement that a 1000hr pilot does not belong in the right seat of a Gulfstream, Challenger, Falcon, etc....

...or this statement...

An average GA trained 1000hr pilot does not have the experience and skills to be a part of a professionally trained crew in my opinion.

I disagree because I've seen pilots with this kind of flight time as part of professionally trained flight crews. I've also seen several 1500 hour pilots in the right seats of 737s. I might agree on the experience comment, but not the skills part. Skills are easy to learn, it's the experience that might take a while to accrue.

 

[Stearmandriver]

easy...how many 1000 hour civilian pilots do you know that have nothing more than C152/172 time, now compare that to the kind of time most 1,000 hour military guys have

Well, I've actually known quite a few with better time than that at a thousand hours... including me. Like English said, there are many airlines out there putting thousand hour pilots in the right seat of jets. I fly with quite a few of them. Are they qualified to be captains? No, of course not, not at that point. But can they safely fly the airplane from A to B? Well sure, why shouldn't they be able to? It's the same darn thing they've already been doing for a thousand hours! So what if it's powered by big fans and has video games up front? It's the same basic machine as that 152 with a recip engine and round dials... it's a freakin airplane. Why make this job more complicated than it is?

 

[flyfastinmy10]

Flight departments in a perfect world would hire nothing but high time captains. They would pay them very well and take care of them and these Captains would stay forever.

Ask yourself this, Why do they need someone?

Flying a business jet is a good job. Most companies have some nice trips and all expenses are paid. I have stayed in the Caribean on an Island for a week at a time. I've stayed in Eagle, Aspen and Teluride. Been to the beach on both coasts. I've been everywhere in Europe. I now work for an airline and people ask me why I left. Try Being on call 24/7/365. My last year there I worked Christmas day and week. New Years eve and day. Easter, My birthday, and was unable to attend my uncles funeral. I flew 98 hours one month. I've had 22 hour duty days, 14 hour flight days and periods where my rest was reduced to 5 or 6 hours.

This is why a company would hire a low time FO. Business is business. Training is expensive. If you were a high time Captain would you take this position? If you would, I would be willing to bet your not very good. I've flown with a few high timers that should be bagging groceries.
The companies view on this is hire someone that they can keep for hopefully 5 years or more. It will cost somewhere arround 30K to 40K for an initial course, then about 20K per year after that for recurrent. If they get the right low time pilot, they can mold him into a very good seasoned Captain and stand a better chance of keeping him.
The 135 charter business is demanding. mix in some 91 trips to keep everything legal. This is great experience but not a place to retire. There is turnover and oppertunities.
After working here for 5+ years you can look for a corporate job that pays a lot better, takes care of you and requires your higher level of experience. These are the jobs everyone here is talking about. They are also very hard to find or get.
Throttlebender, good luck and let us know what happens.

 

[slowtation capt]

I would have to agree with SCT that a 1000 hr pilot at a professional company is a little to low. Can someone with that time fly the aircraft. Sure they can, all planes fly the same. But what about going into TEB at 5pm when the weather is down and NY ATC is doing their usual. Where is this person going to be, probably back at the airport where they took off from.

How do the commuters train their pilots, well use the autopilot at 400' agl after takeoff until DH. No thinking involved on their part, company does all their planning and have you ever heard on the radio, "stby have to check with company" They don't think, they are monkeys.

 

[English]

How do the commuters train their pilots, well use the autopilot at 400' agl after takeoff until DH. No thinking involved on their part, company does all their planning and have you ever heard on the radio, "stby have to check with company" They don't think, they are monkeys.

I take it you've never flown for a part 121 carrier?

The only place that ever trained me to turn the autopilot on after takeoff was FlightSafety, single pilot for a CE525.

I was a 1000 hour pilot in the right seat of a Saab for a regional (I take it you mean commuter to be the same as a regional airline). Within my first three months there, I was flying out of DFW, MIA, JFK, BOS and LAX. I wasn't lost - no big deal, really. Hand flying was the norm until 10,000 feet, autopilot on, then off during the descent. Now, I'm sure my first few captains kept an eye on me, but I flew the plane the same as everyone did. No one knew my flight time unless I volunteered it.

It's not brain surgery, it's flying an airplane.

 

[Stearmandriver]

It's not brain surgery, it's flying an airplane.

My point exactly. Seems like some people try to make this job out to be more than it is. I'm not saying we aren't highly trained professionals (who should be paid and treated accordingly), but c'mon, what we do isn't a moonshot back in the days of slide rules. It's not launching off a boat at night in horrible weather and going into combat alone. It's not driving a DC-3 from one grass, oil-can lit strip to another in horrible icing conditions. We fly big, stable, reliable, and (in most cases) wonderfully equipped airplanes straight and level from one modern airport to another, most of the time above the significant weather.

As for this:

I would have to agree with SCT that a 1000 hr pilot at a professional company is a little to low. Can someone with that time fly the aircraft. Sure they can, all planes fly the same. But what about going into TEB at 5pm when the weather is down and NY ATC is doing their usual. Where is this person going to be, probably back at the airport where they took off from.

I do that with new FO's all the time, only into EWR which is probably worse. Most of the time new guys like to handfly approaches, and I can't say I've ever had a problem with it. I mean, if you can't handfly a busy approach in low weather, what training department is gonna turn you lose on line?

Anyway, whatever, it doesn't matter to me. I suppose the more people there are out there that regard lower time guys as incompetent, the less competition there is for mid-time guys like myself. Just doesn't seem quite fair, is all. How many times have you heard that good departments don't hire the pilot, but the person? I think if I were hiring someone, I'd sooner take the lower time guy I liked (assuming demonstration of basic skills) and accept that he might have some learning to do, before I'd take the higher time guy that just didn't seem like he'd fit in as well. But, what do I know...

 

[FracCapt]

I was a 1000 hour pilot in the right seat of a Saab for a regional (I take it you mean commuter to be the same as a regional airline). Within my first three months there, I was flying out of DFW, MIA, JFK, BOS and LAX. I wasn't lost - no big deal, really.

The way I look at it is....if there's a place for a 1000 hour CFI to be flying jets, it's at a 121 carrier, where things are extremely structured and fewer decisions to be made. The corporate world(which generally has very little structure, except for some flight depts that generally do NOT hire low timers anyways), in my not so humble opinion, is no place for those guys. I admit, I've flown with some low timers as SIC's on contract gigs, but I knew in advance I was essentially single pilot. Yes, those pilots went through FSI for the SIC checks in those aircraft....but some were very low time, and way behind the airplane. Of most would probably say I'm a total pr!ck of a Captain....and they would be right....but at least I bought the beer!

Don't throw that tired old argument that military pilots are in command of a single seat fighter at 300 hours....last I checked, civilian training is NOWHERE NEAR that of military training. Plus, those single seaters don't carry pax, and all have an option we don't have in the civilian world.....ejection..

 

[FracCapt]

I do that with new FO's all the time, only into EWR which is probably worse.

Ok...I've seen you make numerous comments about flying with low time FO's all the time...your "Current position" in your profile shows E145fo. How long have you been a Captain on the ERJ?