Interview lunch went well I think

[slowtation capt]

I would have to agree with SCT that a 1000 hr pilot at a professional company is a little to low. Can someone with that time fly the aircraft. Sure they can, all planes fly the same. But what about going into TEB at 5pm when the weather is down and NY ATC is doing their usual. Where is this person going to be, probably back at the airport where they took off from.

How do the commuters train their pilots, well use the autopilot at 400' agl after takeoff until DH. No thinking involved on their part, company does all their planning and have you ever heard on the radio, "stby have to check with company" They don't think, they are monkeys.

 

[English]

How do the commuters train their pilots, well use the autopilot at 400' agl after takeoff until DH. No thinking involved on their part, company does all their planning and have you ever heard on the radio, "stby have to check with company" They don't think, they are monkeys.

I take it you've never flown for a part 121 carrier?

The only place that ever trained me to turn the autopilot on after takeoff was FlightSafety, single pilot for a CE525.

I was a 1000 hour pilot in the right seat of a Saab for a regional (I take it you mean commuter to be the same as a regional airline). Within my first three months there, I was flying out of DFW, MIA, JFK, BOS and LAX. I wasn't lost - no big deal, really. Hand flying was the norm until 10,000 feet, autopilot on, then off during the descent. Now, I'm sure my first few captains kept an eye on me, but I flew the plane the same as everyone did. No one knew my flight time unless I volunteered it.

It's not brain surgery, it's flying an airplane.

 

[Stearmandriver]

It's not brain surgery, it's flying an airplane.

My point exactly. Seems like some people try to make this job out to be more than it is. I'm not saying we aren't highly trained professionals (who should be paid and treated accordingly), but c'mon, what we do isn't a moonshot back in the days of slide rules. It's not launching off a boat at night in horrible weather and going into combat alone. It's not driving a DC-3 from one grass, oil-can lit strip to another in horrible icing conditions. We fly big, stable, reliable, and (in most cases) wonderfully equipped airplanes straight and level from one modern airport to another, most of the time above the significant weather.

As for this:

I would have to agree with SCT that a 1000 hr pilot at a professional company is a little to low. Can someone with that time fly the aircraft. Sure they can, all planes fly the same. But what about going into TEB at 5pm when the weather is down and NY ATC is doing their usual. Where is this person going to be, probably back at the airport where they took off from.

I do that with new FO's all the time, only into EWR which is probably worse. Most of the time new guys like to handfly approaches, and I can't say I've ever had a problem with it. I mean, if you can't handfly a busy approach in low weather, what training department is gonna turn you lose on line?

Anyway, whatever, it doesn't matter to me. I suppose the more people there are out there that regard lower time guys as incompetent, the less competition there is for mid-time guys like myself. Just doesn't seem quite fair, is all. How many times have you heard that good departments don't hire the pilot, but the person? I think if I were hiring someone, I'd sooner take the lower time guy I liked (assuming demonstration of basic skills) and accept that he might have some learning to do, before I'd take the higher time guy that just didn't seem like he'd fit in as well. But, what do I know...

 

[FracCapt]

I was a 1000 hour pilot in the right seat of a Saab for a regional (I take it you mean commuter to be the same as a regional airline). Within my first three months there, I was flying out of DFW, MIA, JFK, BOS and LAX. I wasn't lost - no big deal, really.

The way I look at it is....if there's a place for a 1000 hour CFI to be flying jets, it's at a 121 carrier, where things are extremely structured and fewer decisions to be made. The corporate world(which generally has very little structure, except for some flight depts that generally do NOT hire low timers anyways), in my not so humble opinion, is no place for those guys. I admit, I've flown with some low timers as SIC's on contract gigs, but I knew in advance I was essentially single pilot. Yes, those pilots went through FSI for the SIC checks in those aircraft....but some were very low time, and way behind the airplane. Of most would probably say I'm a total pr!ck of a Captain....and they would be right....but at least I bought the beer!

Don't throw that tired old argument that military pilots are in command of a single seat fighter at 300 hours....last I checked, civilian training is NOWHERE NEAR that of military training. Plus, those single seaters don't carry pax, and all have an option we don't have in the civilian world.....ejection..

 

[FracCapt]

I do that with new FO's all the time, only into EWR which is probably worse.

Ok...I've seen you make numerous comments about flying with low time FO's all the time...your "Current position" in your profile shows E145fo. How long have you been a Captain on the ERJ?

 

[English]

Of most would probably say I'm a total pr!ck of a Captain....and they would be right....but at least I bought the beer!

Hey, no name calling of the guy who buys the beer!

 

[FracCapt]

Hey, no name calling of the guy who buys the beer!

It's fair if they call me certain names....after all, those names are things that I call myself in my initial brief with a new pilot. They can't say I didn't give 'em fair warning!

 

[Stearmandriver]

Ok...I've seen you make numerous comments about flying with low time FO's all the time...your "Current position" in your profile shows E145fo. How long have you been a Captain on the ERJ?

LOL thats pretty old... maybe someday I'll update it. I was a prop captain for a couple years before 9/11, downgraded to the right seat of the rj for a while following 9/11 so as not to have to sit reserve... been back in the left seat (of the jet) for around a year now.

 

[bigD]

These threads always interest me because my flight time puts me in the "incompetent low time pilot" category that people talk about. I meet the minimums of all the regionals now, and sometimes I think about how I'd manage flying some regional jet, or Saab, or whatever else. The Type A pilot in me wants to say, "of course, I can handle it!"

But then I find myself getting slam dunked into HOU at 9pm, the rain hitting the windshield is deafening, the plane is bouncing around to the point where I can't get a good grab on the PTT to tell approach that my vector is gonna put me into some red. The frequency is jammed with everyone else b!tching about their vectors as well. Meanwhile I'm cursing the controller for keeping me so high, the finicky RAM engines and the 50 degree CHT range that the chief pilot dictates to me, the 140 knot Vle, the approach plates that just fell to the floor, the fact that I'm having to rap on the glass of the HSI to get the glideslope to unstick, my INOP autopilot, and finally my football team for its inability to beat Oklahoma.

And so I gotta admit - at times like these, I'm pretty close to the limit of what I can handle. And this is in a cabin class piston twin. Not some fast complicated jet, or even a turboprop. Back when they had just over a 1000 hours, Stearmandriver and English were likely better pilots than I am now, so for them, maybe they're right. And really, the job *is* easy 95% of the time. But every once in awhile weather, fatigue, or whatever else makes me happy that I'm flying what I am, and not being a liability in something larger and faster.

 

[SCT]

BigD,

I think you would find flying a small jet easier in some aspects, then flying a cabin class piston twin. I don't think 1000hr pilots are incomp., but like in any career they are learning and gaining exp. (And I know that you cannot lump everyone's experience into one basket.) When I was at 1000-1500 hrs and flying a light twin, I was not ready to jump into a large jet.

I just don't see a trend of large 91 departments hiring 1000hr pilots into the right seats of large corporate jets. (Yes, there are exceptions.) Most seem to be hiring middle age guys with jet time who will fit into their "company mold". There are plenty of these guys unemployed to pick from that pool. If a chief pilot is hiring a 1000hr pilot into the right seat of a Gulfstream, Falcon, etc they are more interested in saving money then safety. I would like to see him explain his decision to the CEO and his family when they are getting on the a/c. In my experiences, the CEOs I've flown for are alot more interested in safety then money.

If this was a trend, my boss could get rid of 1/2 of us overpaid middle age guys and replace us with CFIs from the local FBO......this move would offset the higher fuel prices in his budget for the year. I'm sure they would sit in a 604 for 30K a year.......but this WILL also drag down the industry wages.

Just my opinion, but my ex thinks I'm an idiot, anyway!!
SCT

 

[Flying Illini]

I'm nearing 1000hrs TT. I am lucky enough to have over 400hrs of turbojet time. I currently have more DA-10 time than 2 of the captains I fly with. They ask me operational and aircraft questions. I have more DA-20 time than 1 of the captains I fly with. Same situation as above. The -10 is one captains first jet. He has 4500 hrs of cheyenne time and he is a good pilot but the -10 is fast and it is a handful for him. He keeps up with the airplane but I watch him more than he watches me.
He is a great captain and I respect his skills and the flying knowledge that he has to share. The only reason I bring this up is to show that this argument can go both ways.

And personally, I routinly handfly into the FL's and anything below 10,000 on the descent...including low approaches. I feel that if anything, at my low TT I have something to prove. THere is more pressure on me to perform than there is on a higher time pilot. People tend to think that just because someone has 3000 hrs that they are competent good pilots. Not always the case...shoot, I've come across pilots who have 2-3000 hours but over 2/3rds of it is banner towing! They can tow a banner better than I can, they can land a tailwheel better than I can, but I wouldn't want to be flying a low approach in icing into ORD with them.
Who would you hire...1000hr CFI-I/MEI (who flies in good or bad wx) or a 3000hr banner tow pilot (who flies mindless hrs up and down a beach at 50mph)? I would go with the lower time-higher quality person.

I feel that if I can't perform my assigned duties to as high a level as a captain, than I shouldn't be here. My goal is the left seat, not the eternal right seat so I might as well start flying and making decisions like a captain. Have I made wrong decisions before? Yes. But nothing that is going to affect the safety of flight. There is one captain whom I fly with regularly that treats me like a captain. He creates the environment that I'm the new captain and he's the training captain (which he is). I file the flight plan, I plan the fuel, I make all of the decisions. Of course I run everything through him and he either agrees or disagrees and if the latter is the case, he makes a suggestions or guides my decision making process in another direction.

Before anyone jumps on my case for being overconfident or whathaveyou, I don't intend to come across that way. I just feel that you can take an older guy and a younger guy, drop them into a new environment for both of them, and they will both accel. I realize that I am NOT captain material...yet. There is still learning to do, just as everyone (left seat or right seat) has learning to do on every flight.
Too much weight is placed on TT and not enough on quality of time. Yet, to get that quality time, someone has to take a chance and give a low time CFI or banner pilot their big break. Everyone on this board got their break somewhere...for some in came sooner, for others it came later.

 

[bigD]

BigD,

I think you would find flying a small jet easier in some aspects, then flying a cabin class piston twin. I don't think 1000hr pilots are incomp., but like in any career they are learning and gaining exp. (And I know that you cannot lump everyone's experience into one basket.) When I was at 1000-1500 hrs and flying a light twin, I was not ready to jump into a large jet.

I don't think I'm ready to move up yet, and in reality, I don't want to be. I really enjoy the flying I'm doing, and the money isn't bad either. Like you said, I'm building experience and learning, and loving every minute of it. I'm certainly not complaining!

 

[Publishers]

That kind of flying is what makes you and you may well be as current as you will ever be. From many perspectives, jets are easier than your average Baron and the bigger the easier. Yeah there are all those systems that you have to learn and high altitude, but they usually come equipped with some real nice stuff to help you out.

 

[gear_guy]

I'm nearing 1000hrs TT. I am lucky enough to have over 400hrs of turbojet time. I currently have more DA-10 time than 2 of the captains I fly with. They ask me operational and aircraft questions. I have more DA-20 time than 1 of the captains I fly with. Same situation as above. The -10 is one captains first jet. He has 4500 hrs of cheyenne time and he is a good pilot but the -10 is fast and it is a handful for him. He keeps up with the airplane but I watch him more than he watches me.
He is a great captain and I respect his skills and the flying knowledge that he has to share. The only reason I bring this up is to show that this argument can go both ways.

And personally, I routinly handfly into the FL's and anything below 10,000 on the descent...including low approaches. I feel that if anything, at my low TT I have something to prove. THere is more pressure on me to perform than there is on a higher time pilot. People tend to think that just because someone has 3000 hrs that they are competent good pilots. Not always the case...shoot, I've come across pilots who have 2-3000 hours but over 2/3rds of it is banner towing! They can tow a banner better than I can, they can land a tailwheel better than I can, but I wouldn't want to be flying a low approach in icing into ORD with them.
Who would you hire...1000hr CFI-I/MEI (who flies in good or bad wx) or a 3000hr banner tow pilot (who flies mindless hrs up and down a beach at 50mph)? I would go with the lower time-higher quality person.

I feel that if I can't perform my assigned duties to as high a level as a captain, than I shouldn't be here. My goal is the left seat, not the eternal right seat so I might as well start flying and making decisions like a captain. Have I made wrong decisions before? Yes. But nothing that is going to affect the safety of flight. There is one captain whom I fly with regularly that treats me like a captain. He creates the environment that I'm the new captain and he's the training captain (which he is). I file the flight plan, I plan the fuel, I make all of the decisions. Of course I run everything through him and he either agrees or disagrees and if the latter is the case, he makes a suggestions or guides my decision making process in another direction.

Before anyone jumps on my case for being overconfident or whathaveyou, I don't intend to come across that way. I just feel that you can take an older guy and a younger guy, drop them into a new environment for both of them, and they will both accel. I realize that I am NOT captain material...yet. There is still learning to do, just as everyone (left seat or right seat) has learning to do on every flight.
Too much weight is placed on TT and not enough on quality of time. Yet, to get that quality time, someone has to take a chance and give a low time CFI or banner pilot their big break. Everyone on this board got their break somewhere...for some in came sooner, for others it came later.

Nevermind...

 

[Flying Illini]

Nevermind...

I'd actually like to hear what you have to say about it.
You have to get experience somewhere...what's the difference getting it pt. 91 or pt. 121 (I think expressjet is hiring at 600/100?)?

ok, after re-reading my above post, I feel I came across as arrogant. That was not my intention. I've never been great at expressing my feelings in writing, I apologize. I guess that what I'm trying to say is that with the proper training you can take anyone of any experience level and turn them into good, level-headed pilots...with the proper training. An example of this would be military pilots. Excellent training=excellent pilots.

 

[Stearmandriver]

These threads always interest me because my flight time puts me in the "incompetent low time pilot" category that people talk about. I meet the minimums of all the regionals now, and sometimes I think about how I'd manage flying some regional jet, or Saab, or whatever else. The Type A pilot in me wants to say, "of course, I can handle it!"

But then I find myself getting slam dunked into HOU at 9pm, the rain hitting the windshield is deafening, the plane is bouncing around to the point where I can't get a good grab on the PTT to tell approach that my vector is gonna put me into some red. The frequency is jammed with everyone else b!tching about their vectors as well. Meanwhile I'm cursing the controller for keeping me so high, the finicky RAM engines and the 50 degree CHT range that the chief pilot dictates to me, the 140 knot Vle, the approach plates that just fell to the floor, the fact that I'm having to rap on the glass of the HSI to get the glideslope to unstick, my INOP autopilot, and finally my football team for its inability to beat Oklahoma.

And so I gotta admit - at times like these, I'm pretty close to the limit of what I can handle. And this is in a cabin class piston twin. Not some fast complicated jet, or even a turboprop. Back when they had just over a 1000 hours, Stearmandriver and English were likely better pilots than I am now, so for them, maybe they're right. And really, the job *is* easy 95% of the time. But every once in awhile weather, fatigue, or whatever else makes me happy that I'm flying what I am, and not being a liability in something larger and faster.

BigD,

It just goes to show that time is all relative. I haven't had a day as bad as the one you describe in awhile, just because of all the extra resources available to me in a well equipped, two pilot airplane. (Well, there was the time the freakin volcano woke up on our way to Peubla, wx was great so we didn't have an alternate, and there was a new cloud of volcanic ash over most of the useable airports in central mexico. That day sucked.) I'd probably find myself feeling a little overloaded if I was thrown into YOUR job. It's just what you get used to. The scariest flying I've done lately hasn't been in jets at all (with experienced guys OR new guys); it's been checking out two high-time jet pilots in a stearman. Both these guys have 7000+ hours, most of it in big iron, but unfortunately neither of them seems to remember what a rudder is for. One of them is ex-military, which seems (in my experience) to exacerbate the rudder-control problem. Dunno why. Anyway, point is, I probably wasn't a "better pilot" than you at a thousand hours... and what does that mean anyway? I had a bunch of tailwheel/acro time by then, so I was pretty good at stick and rudder stuff, but I was flying out of little farm airports in the IL cornfields. A Hobby situation like you describe was pretty far outside my realm of experience. But I did ok the first time I was thrown into something like that, and learned fast. It's all about adaptability, I think. You're right about one thing though: WhatEVER you're currently doing, it probably pays better than the freakin airlines!

SCT, I don't mean to sound like I'm arguing. I agree with you that the TREND certainly isn't to hire low time guys, and I'm glad as hell to see an industry that values experience. The LAST thing I want to do is drag down the industry. I really thought my company would be the ones to get started fixing the RJ wages; I seem to have misjudged my coworkers because I really think most of them are going to sign this POS contract offer we've got. Oh well, I'd decided to leave well before this... guess it just goes to show I made the right call...

Anyway, I just have this tendency to play devil's advocate. My point wasn't that 1000 hr guys in F500 jets should be the norm, just that it's certainly possible to do it safely, with the right training. For instance, some chief pilot's friend or relative that he knows well, has flown with, and believes would be a great fit in the department, might get hired low time like this because he's a known quantity. This happens sometimes, and strangely enough, these airplanes aren't plummeting from the sky the first week the new guy's on the job! Heck, back in the day, UAL was hiring 300 hr guys without instrument ratings, training them, and throwing them in the right seat of stuff that was bigger and more complicated than anything you or I fly.

How'd we get on this subject anyway? The original point (I think) was that a 3000hr ATP would have no trouble getting insured!

Later...

 

[AA717driver]

BigD--I believe flying single pilot in a piston or turboprop twin is the most demanding civil flying you can do. You probably won't be any sharper than when you leave that for a multi-crew aircraft.

The fact that you can handle all the crap you described and both retain you ticket and live to tell about it says something about your abilities.

Enjoy!TC

 

[HMR]

BigD,
Will you please go for a ride in a jet or t-prop and come to your senses. I think flying a C340 single-pilot, IFR is one of the most difficult things a commercial pilot can do. Trust me, it will all get easier from here. I still get a twitch when I think of the 340.

 

[gear_guy]

I'd actually like to hear what you have to say about it.

Well, I was avoiding the post because I too am concerned about how I come across to people. And, I did not want to discourage you. I come from a similar backgound. I started flying jets at around 600 hours. Got my first type with 850 TT. So please understand that I have been there done that. My only advice would be to slow down and excercise some patience. You are highly motivated and that is great news. I would look to hire someone like yourself. Just know that your motivation will pay off, but right now you should focus all your energy to being the best F/O a captain could have. The truth is that even though you feel like you are qualified to be captain you really are'nt. I am still in your shoes (kind of) but do have the time to be captain. But, I came to the place where I just don't care. It does'nt matter what seat I sit in. I know that experience counts for 90% of flying. Yes there are captain with 6000 hours that still struggle. And yes you may have to watch them, as I have and continue to do. But I speak from experience when I say, do it quietly. If you project that attitude to the folks you fly with you will likely get canned. I know it sucks, but pay your dues and eventually you will see the left seat. You are surely a "good stick" and that is about 10%. Your real skills will be developed over the next couple thousand hours. Believe me, they will. Remember I was in your shoes. Don't ever feel like you know it all and class is over. That would be a grave mistake. You will see alot in the next 1000 hours or so and that will really shape you as a pilot that you will be the rest of your career. I hope I did not come across wrong but that is my take on it. You are sitting pretty right now (flying jets). Just be patient. And Good Luck!
Ps- Don't ever feel like you have something to prove. That is a bad place to be. Just do your job with a smile. Belive me, everyone knows you can fly that plane good. They obviously already respect you for it. If you want to be a captain, act like one. Don't try to prove anything. And, by all means let the autopilot earn its $

 

[bigD]

Heh! Thanks everyone for the encouragement. I'm certainly having a blast at it! I'm not in any hurry to move up, although it'd be interesting to test this theory that I'd find it easier flying a jet. Any takers?


Flying Illini - kick @ss job you seem to have. Did you spend any time in anything beyond your typical light twin before you stepped into the Falcon? That must have been a heck of a transition.