Interesting MOA encounter with Viper

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Tactical guys: If true.... Why would an F-16 'aggressively pursue' and 'follow in a dive' a civilian aircraft?

 

[Bjammin]

Would you drive your car through a race course? Would you go plowing through a waterski show with your boat? NO!!
Why? Because guys are busy doing things that require more attention then looking for you. You are causing a hazzard. If I don't concentrate on my mission I jepordize safety.

How much time do you think it takes from the time I can physically see you until I hit you at 400+ KTS?

How much time can I acually spand looking for you when I need to concentrate on formation, tactics, navigation, weapon systems, aircraft systems, instrumentation?

If I saw a sign on the ground that said: "Military Operations Area, excercise extreme caution!"
I would avoid that area at all costs. I would think it too risky for me to be walking around in there and would find another way to go.


I have offered a good idea about calling us to let us know you will be there at not ONE civilian has offered to do so. Why Not?

 

[Bjammin]

Tactical guys: If true.... Why would an F-16 'aggressively pursue' and 'follow in a dive' a civilian aircraft?

My thought is he might have been trying to get his tail number or letting the guy know he is causing problems. I truely don't think he was trying to be a danger.

If the F-16 pilot was being dangerous then he should be punished.

 

[mzaharis]

Here's the Luke AFB side of the story (maybe). From a post on this website (the one which originally posted the story), supposedly from another fighter pilot based at Luke:

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsiderBlog_IfYouCantHandleMigs_F16s_MOAs_197505-1.html

Let me clear up a few things about this incident.
1. The Pilatus and Raytheon Premier both flew through the middle of a 2 v 2 Tactical Intercept Mission
2. The Pilatus pilot flew right through the Blue Air CAP, leading to the first "intercept". The F-16 came no closer than 1000' to the Pilatus verified by the F-16 HUD tape (with radar lock), ACMI track, and civil radar recording.
3. The "intercept" on the Corporate Image Aviation Jet (Raytheon Premier) ocurred as a result of a fast mover (320 KIAS) in the middle of the fight at 16,500. This happened to be the middle of the Red Air altitude block (5-9s). The F-16 came no closer than 600', verified by HUD tape (with radar lock), ACMI track, and civil radar recording.
4. The accounts by both civil pilots of aggressive maneuvering and 10' and 20' spacing by the F-16 pilot we're verified as false by HUD tape and recorded ACMI data.
5. Thankfully the civilian aircraft were seen prior to becoming a further factor to the F-16 training.
The F-16 training was terminated as a result of the traffic. Total cost to taxpayer at ~ $8000 per flying hour x 4 F-16s x 1.3 = $41,600 lost + cost of bad press received due to civilians flying through the MOA closest to the world's largest F-16 base + cost of investigation ($ amount yet determined).
For everyone's safety, please don't fly through active MOA's. If we end up with a mid air, we all lose! www.seeandavoid.org
posted by Luke Viperpilot on April 3, 2008 (report

 

[Bjammin]

www.seeandavoid.org

Great websight!!!!

 

[Frisko]

No closer than 1000' to the Pilatus and 600' to the Premiere verified by ACMI and Hud footage.
Care to change your story Mr McCall? What a tool.

 

[Frisko]

Assuming you survive the collision. I'd rethink this position if I were you. Hopefully somone in your element or division is clearing if you're not going to. This is part of the deal when operating in a MOA isn't it?

Deuce-
I'd rethink your position as well, you've made some blaringly naive posts on this thread.
Things are different in a single seat cockpit where you don't have a crew looking for traffic.
I'll offer the opinion as well that maybe you shouldn't criticize a fellow mil. pilot on a public forum unless you have all the facts.

 

[jetjock6]

After reading all of this somehow NOE on goggles seems much safer.:beer:

 

[stonewall]

Deuce-
I'd rethink your position as well, you've made some blaringly naive posts on this thread.
Things are different in a single seat cockpit where you don't have a crew looking for traffic.
I'll offer the opinion as well that maybe you shouldn't criticize a fellow mil. pilot on a public forum unless you have all the facts.

I've been watching this thread degnerate after quickly posting before I knew the facts. Deuce never criticized the F-16 guys. He consistently said IF the F-16 pilots did as the lawyer claimed, they were in the wrong. And he would've been right.

Next, we DO, as single seat guys, clear the area before BFM, ACM, or ACT engagements. Granted, it's mostly via radar, but it's pretty effective. You know when you get a hit whether or not it's a non-player, and it's rare, despite some of the crowing here, that a non-player is ever a factor in any type of fighter engagement.

That's probably what happened here...the idiot wanders into a fight he didn't know was happening, someone saw him on the radar, knocked it off, and averted an incident.

Finally...I know Deuce pretty well. All the fighter guys here can trust me when I say he knows much more about OUR tactics and techniques than we know about HIS. And if you don't think the MC-130 world is heavy into tactics after the last 7 years, then you're wrong.

 

[Caveman]

I've been watching this thread degnerate after quickly posting before I knew the facts. Deuce never criticized the F-16 guys. He consistently said IF the F-16 pilots did as the lawyer claimed, they were in the wrong. And he would've been right.

Next, we DO, as single seat guys, clear the area before BFM, ACM, or ACT engagements. Granted, it's mostly via radar, but it's pretty effective. You know when you get a hit whether or not it's a non-player, and it's rare, despite some of the crowing here, that a non-player is ever a factor in any type of fighter engagement.

That's probably what happened here...the idiot wanders into a fight he didn't know was happening, someone saw him on the radar, knocked it off, and averted an incident.

Finally...I know Deuce pretty well. All the fighter guys here can trust me when I say he knows much more about OUR tactics and techniques than we know about HIS. And if you don't think the MC-130 world is heavy into tactics after the last 7 years, then you're wrong.

Good post Magnum.