Interesting MOA encounter with Viper

[Caveman]

You have GOT to be kidding me! This argument has been had time and time again and the bottom line is, YOU ARE RISKING OUR LIVES BY FLYING THROUGH AN ACTIVE MOA!!!

At 400+ kts with a formation my ability to see and avoid is in the matter of seconds and with restricted ability to manuever becomes almost impossible. If someone enters the MOA I have to stop and try to VID the guy. We have tracked down tail numbers and sent letters to civies saying that they almost died because they wandered into a practice dogfight.

I think all MOA's should become restricted areas, but that will never happen, so I offer a solution. If a MOA is active try your best not to fly through it. If you have to for operational reasons like pipline survey or something similar then call the squadrons that use it at let them know you'll be there, what altitude, track, and times. I have no problem using another MOA if availiable or restricting myself to a certain corner if able.

Chances are civies won't do this, why? Because they still want to prove their RIGHT to be there and are too lazy to make it safe for all of us.

Safety is the number one priority. I'm willing to make help out, are you?

YOU ARE RISKING OUR LIVES WHEN YOU FLY HIGHSPEED MANEAUVERS IN AN MOA WITHOUT CLEARING THE AREA FIRST. You may not like it, but it is shared airspace. It is not military airspace. If the feds wanted it to be your exclusive domain they would have designated it that way, but they didn't. It's designated as military in the sense that military operations are permitted there. That means anybody flying through it shouldn't be surprised when they see a light gray blur go streaking by. You shouldn't be surprised either when you discover a 172 cruising through. Everybody in an active MOA has the responsibility to see and avoid. Your problem is you want to be exempt from your part of the bargain. Your answer is to claim some higher authority to be there over the GA airplane. You're wrong. There is no heirarchy in MOA's. .

Personally, I'd have to have a pretty compelling reason to fly into a hot MOA. It's the same rationale I use to avoid designated civilian flight training areas too. What galls me is the holier than thou entitlement aspect of this discussion. MOA's are shared airspace despite what you believe is a god given right to exclude others from it. If you absolutely have to have a chunk of airspace to yourself then go use restricted airspace. It's restricted for a reason.

 

[DarinFred]

MTRs

Here's why you don't fly through MTRs, especially at low altitude. No squawk, the other aircraft was oblivious...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLVtstYAZLY

 

[Caveman]

Congrats, you've made the dumbest comment on in this thread. If thats the case, why the fvck do we have MILITARY OPERATIONS AREA'S.

It's all in the name.

You're right it is all in the name. Why isn't it called a Military Operations Only Area? Because it wasn't designed to be your exclusive airspace, that's why. The title and the airspace is designated that way on purpose to let everyone know what to expect. IOW, enter at your own risk. That risk applies to both parties. GA aircraft enter knowing there may be fast movers in there. You should enter knowing there may be GA aircraft in there. Both parties have a responsibility to see and avoid. Why the fvck can't you grasp that simple concept?

 

[Caveman]

I'm not defending or advocating flying into a hot MOA. I'm suggesting that a military pilot shouldn't be surprised or upset when they encounter a GA airplane in a MOA. They are allowed to be there and you are aware or should be aware that the threat exists. Pissing and moaning about it isn't the answer. Recognizing the threat and looking for it is the answer. At least until if and when they change the rules about MOAs.

 

[Deuce130]

And we file VR routes under IFR control on an IFR flight plan. You need to go back and relearn just what exactly the difference is between an IR and VR route, not what rules you're under when you're on it.

You know nothing about tactical aviation, so why are you arguing?

Sig, I'm not arguing. You are not under IFR control when operating on a VR route, unless you get constant radar coverage below 500' and get flight following. How many MVAs do you know that go down to 500? We fly our VR routes VFR. I never said anything about IR routes, so why would you say I did.

What's with the insults? I haven't insulted anyone yet. I know nothing about tactical aviation? What do you suppose I've been doing the last 13 years? I've got 500 combat hours in OIF/OEF, much of it at night below 300' that says I know something about tactical combat aviation. Don't you remember PMing me a while back when you were about to wash out of fighters about my reserve unit? I explained what we did to you then, I guess you forgot it.

 

[Jimmy C. Corn]

I think too many of you seem enamored with Tom Cruise and the whole Mav persona a little too much. Doesn't matter what kind of day this particular fighter pilot was having, or what kind of idiots those two civ pilots were being. The fact that a USAF pilot thought it was a good idea to intercept and fly wingtip with two strangers when he didn't have to is the point here. Anyone who applauds this type of action is a moron, and probably shouldn't be flying. Plain and simple.

Spoken like a true heavy pilot.

Sorry you didn't get a T-38, dude. I've come to terms with it. So should you.

 

[Deuce130]

Spoken like a true heavy pilot.

Sorry you didn't get a T-38, dude. I've come to terms with it. So should you.

*Yawn* Nice try, dude. Did you even read the thread or just cherry pick posts to try out your little zingers?

Edit: I'm done with this thread. What started out as a discussion on the appropriate response of military pilots to civilians going through a MOA has, in true fightinfo.com fashion, disintegrated into a Mil vs. Civ and now a Heavy vs Fighter thread. Flame away.

 

[SIG600]

You're right it is all in the name. Why isn't it called a Military Operations Only Area? Because it wasn't designed to be your exclusive airspace, that's why. The title and the airspace is designated that way on purpose to let everyone know what to expect. IOW, enter at your own risk. That risk applies to both parties. GA aircraft enter knowing there may be fast movers in there. You should enter knowing there may be GA aircraft in there. Both parties have a responsibility to see and avoid. Why the fvck can't you grasp that simple concept?

Get some tactical experience and get back to me.

For those that don't get it, reference the following videos, then remember that most of these fights are at greater than 5 g's, and the only way to win a fight is to padlock your eyes on the other guy. So with all your experience in pointy nose jets, tell me how in the hell you're supposed to scan for retards droning through. By the way I've got over 1000 hours of Civi time so I know the story and education of both sides. Bottom line, stay the fvck out because you should, don't drone through because you can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyXjo9T1TF8&feature=related

This one is gay as hell (save yourself and mute it), but an accurate portrayal of what goes on in a MOA. Again, tell me with what extra time you're supposed to scan for traffic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INb-421E-mo


Deuce, no one said anything about your combat experience, you did. I doubt there's a guy on this thread that didn't get green ink of some form last year. Yeah I do remember (it was well over a year ago), and I went on to spend 7 months of last year blow drying bombs over Afghanistan and Iraq.

By tactical, I was referring to pointy nose engaged stuff. Tactical is a relative term.

BTW, Beer offer still stands.

 

[SIG600]

.repost

 

[talondriver]

I'm not defending or advocating flying into a hot MOA. I'm suggesting that a military pilot shouldn't be surprised or upset when they encounter a GA airplane in a MOA. They are allowed to be there and you are aware or should be aware that the threat exists. Pissing and moaning about it isn't the answer. Recognizing the threat and looking for it is the answer. At least until if and when they change the rules about MOAs.

Great....that's all I need....Sig blowing my tax dollars in the MOA looking for Mr. GA half the time and not training to kill the bad dudes :beer: