Interesting MOA encounter with Viper

[Dizel8]

MOA's are open airspace and due diligence is required by all parties entering nd operating within, the military does not have precedence.

If you have ever flown GA out west, particularily slow planes, then you know that some of these areas takes forever to circumnavigate. The exciting areas are "R's" and when in use, stay the heck out.

Heck, next thing we will hear is how all GA planes must avoid MTR's or be called idiots.

 

[Future SNA]

Copy...all you have to do is admit you don't the answer.

Don't the answer what?imp:

 

[stonewall]

Don't the answer what?imp:

The what answer to question huh?

Dude, you started the pissing contest by spouting off on something about which you know nothing...namely MC-130 formation. I asked a simple question, you claimed to know the answer yet fail to answer.

You're coming across as the guy in the debrief that says "oh yeah, I had SA right there...I was thinking X,Y,Z, but yada yada yada." Making sh*t up the whole time.

 

[Bjammin]

MOA's are open airspace and due diligence is required by all parties entering nd operating within, the military does not have precedence.

I would argue that the military does have precedence. We can operate in a MOA differently then other airspace, GA is restricted from operating IFR in a MOA. How is that NOT precedence?

MILITARY operations area. ie: Fast, military jets will be operating at high speed in large numbers. How is it that GA thinks it's OK to blast through there?

MTR's are very easy to avoid. Some near Yuma I would avoid at all costs. Some in Texas NEVER get used.

2 questions:

1. Why will no one agree to calling before entering to make us aware of you so WE can change our plans and avoid you?

2. Would you go blasting through a sailboat race with your boat? It's legal.


P.S. Magnum and SNA, unless your discussion is relevent to the thread topic either please PM each other or start a new thread.

 

[Dizel8]

Bjammin,

Just playing devils advocate here, but if the military needs unrestricted use of the airspace, it becomes a "R" area.

MOA merely means that the military may be operating and even during active hours, the military often isn't actually operating, merely advising that they might be.

I am not sure there is anyone a GA pilot can call to advise you, the mil pilot or the operating facility , that they will be passing through. Normally as you know, the GA pilot can call FSS and inquire as to activity, but doubt that gets handed to you.

MTRs as you said yourself, are depicted, but are often not used, so whereas it might be possible to see Mil activity, on many, odds are higher hat you would be struck be lightning.

As for your sailboat racing analogy, not sure it applies, certainly no one would fly an airplane through the path of say a tanker dragging fast movers. Futher, a sailboat race is in a relatively defined area and I doubt you would avoid sailing, if the around the world race was going on. Some of the MOA's are so big, that the odds of running into a fast mover is akin to your boat being hit by a tanker in the Atlantic on any given day.

I have spent a fair amount of time out west, in and around MOAs flying puddlejumpers and honestly I cannot say, that I ever saw a fast mover. Were they there, probably, did one ever have to maneuver to avoid me, doubtful.

 

[bagasticks]

Bjammin,

Just playing devils advocate here, but if the military needs unrestricted use of the airspace, it becomes a "R" area.

MOA merely means that the military may be operating and even during active hours, the military often isn't actually operating, merely advising that they might be.

I am not sure there is anyone a GA pilot can call to advise you, the mil pilot or the operating facility , that they will be passing through. Normally as you know, the GA pilot can call FSS and inquire as to activity, but doubt that gets handed to you.

MTRs as you said yourself, are depicted, but are often not used, so whereas it might be possible to see Mil activity, on many, odds are higher hat you would be struck be lightning.

As for your sailboat racing analogy, not sure it applies, certainly no one would fly an airplane through the path of say a tanker dragging fast movers. Futher, a sailboat race is in a relatively defined area and I doubt you would avoid sailing, if the around the world race was going on. Some of the MOA's are so big, that the odds of running into a fast mover is akin to your boat being hit by a tanker in the Atlantic on any given day.

I have spent a fair amount of time out west, in and around MOAs flying puddlejumpers and honestly I cannot say, that I ever saw a fast mover. Were they there, probably, did one ever have to maneuver to avoid me, doubtful.

You do realize that tankers do drag fast-movers through moa's (although normally high enough to be no factor). . . . ? That is the danger as uninformed ga pilots (I am one too) we dont know whether we're dealing with a 2 ship goofing off lazily or some LFE involving many many manuevering aircraft. .

Oh and B-jammin. I have called controlling agency of a moa. In fact last friday i did (its easy when you have an AP-1B in your civvy flight bag though). .

 

[avbug]

MTR's are very easy to avoid. Some near Yuma I would avoid at all costs. Some in Texas NEVER get used.

Not really, especially for light aircraft when the MTR crosses your route of flight. You've got to overfly the route. The analogy might be better compared to crossing train tracks, but without any form of warning. You can't just stay on one side of the tracks forever. The rule for military and civillian aside, like it or not is see and avoid...and it's not just a good idea. It's the law.

Even in instrument conditions.

When I lived in Kansas and sprayed (crop dusted) full time, we had a B-1 route that cut through our operating area. Not uncommonly we'd be spraying a field, far from any MOA, and a B-1 or other aircraft would come blowing through at low level...sometimes as we might be pulling up out of a field from a low altitude spray run. I kept a very sharp lookout for traffic all the time, especially any time I had to climb above 5'. I doubt the Lancer pilots would have spotted me, but the main thing is that we were both looking.

I can tell you I certainly was. Furthermore, simply because someone elected to put an oil burner route through my working area doesn't mean that I'm going to fold up and go out of business.

It's a matter of staying heads up and everybody working to share the same airspace. There's only so much to go around, and MTR or MOA, it's nobody's domain. Everybody's got to learn to share.

 

[bssthound]

avbug says

It's a matter of staying heads up and everybody working to share the same airspace

Truer words were never spoken. Flying the RF-4 on MTRs in Alabama and Mississippi, two of the lesser populous states, I can recall a couple times we came close to Cessnas and can't tell you how many times we saw cropdusters. They were bright yellow and we were trained to clear for aircraft so we'd usually see them well before getting too close. Still, there'd always be the potential for one to pop up from behind a treeline. In the heavy ag areas during spray season we'd often climb up to 500' to further ensure clearance.

Only MOA encounter was with a Mooney. We were doing a two ship pop-up attack in line abreast formation. When we popped up the other WSO and I saw a white Mooney with a blue stripe. Probably startled him a lot more than it did me, to have a very fast jet suddenly come up out of the woods and fill up his windscreeen. Oh well, that was the risk he was taking.

 

[transpac]

When I lived in Kansas and sprayed (crop dusted) full time, we had a B-1 route that cut through our operating area. Not uncommonly we'd be spraying a field, far from any MOA, and a B-1 or other aircraft would come blowing through at low level...sometimes as we might be pulling up out of a field from a low altitude spray run. I kept a very sharp lookout for traffic all the time, especially any time I had to climb above 5'. I doubt the Lancer pilots would have spotted me, but the main thing is that we were both looking.

When I was a FAA Inspector many years ago we had an ongoing problem of military aircraft straying off of a low-level route in our district. One time a B-52 flew through the traffic pattern of a very busy GA airport with a pattern full of students from a university flight school. The airport was 12 miles from the edge of the low level route. Several near misses occured and one Tomahawk on base leg was inverted by the vortices. Luckily that one had an instructor onboard and didn't crash. We got no cooperation from the AF commander, not even a promise that they would look into the issue. Their attitude was that they were saving us from communism and we should be grateful and stay out of the way. I was pretty fresh out of military aviation and I was embarrassed by the attitude on display. We finally violated the the B-52 crew for failure to give way to an aircraft being overtaken. The AF refused to divulge any action taken against the crew and I doubt that there was any. Eventually we got frustrated and managed to go through channels and get the Senate Armed Services Committee interested. That led to the current agreement that military services will respond to the FAA Administrator about actions taken to resolve a FAA violation. I suppose navigation has improved somewhat with all the gee-whiz stuff we have nowadays.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

sounds like some of the MIL attitudes on this thread... lucky for all there are cooler heads in the USAF/USN..... and the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Its good we live in a democracy. Places like commie China, the MIL stonewall public safety....

 

[bssthound]

message deleted

 

[SIG600]

You commented on it so you must care on some level. Or it could be you're just another Navy pilot who spouts sh*t like he knows what he's talking about, which usually isn't the case. Sort of like thinking we still wear ascots. Kinda like y'all wear golf shirts under your flight suits.

What's the answer?

He's a Marine, and a RAG student, so don't pay attention. He's got no operational experience, and thus no real argument in this thing.

Answer to how close MC-130's go lead-trail at night in the moutains on gogs? Way fugging closer than I want to be. Watched a multi ship of those guys in a valley in Afghanistan, from WAY up high. Yeesh.

 

[Future SNA]

If you read back a couple posts from my first I was actually mocking the MC-130 guy that was AGAINST what you all were saying. But I digress.

 

[stonewall]

If you read back a couple posts from my first I was actually mocking the MC-130 guy that was AGAINST what you all were saying. But I digress.

It's all good here. We're on the same team, including Deuce. I know him well, and we had a fairly heated discussion about this thread. He convinced me he was actually correct in what he was saying, but he does agree the civvie guys were dumba**es. I jumped to his defense on a few things, simply because I know alot about what he does and what he did in OEF and OIF. In the future, you probably shouldn't try to mock guys that have more night combat time below 1000' AGL than you have total time, no matter what they fly.

SIG, thank you for being the voice of reason and rising above the petty rivalries here. And for continuing to say Dave Griffin is an a** every chance you get.

SNA, best of luck in the RAG and over the next couple years. They will be, without question, some of the best and most challenging years of your life. Enjoy it!

 

[stonewall]

Answer to how close MC-130's go lead-trail at night in the moutains on gogs? Way fugging closer than I want to be. Watched a multi ship of those guys in a valley in Afghanistan, from WAY up high. Yeesh.

200'.

 

[SIG600]

200'.

Oh I know, had a great view from up high with Baro Alt Hold selected, watching them through my NVG's and FLIR, glad I didn't have to do that.

I have the upmost respect for all the USAF bretheren, but I'll always make fun of ascots too.

 

[Bjammin]

Many times MOA's are not hot and most centers will have the info for you. The contrlling angency for the MOA's is listed in the low charts and, I think, the sectionals. You will get a favoribale response if you call a squadron and/or wing and let them know you will be transiting. They cannot tell you NO, but may say it is going to be very active, or that one guy is going to be in there and will avoid your altitude. Wouldn't you like to know that?

I am far in away in agreement that ANY mil guy that deviates from a MTR or flys unsafe outside a MOA should be delt with EXTREAMLY harsly, both from inside AND outside the military.

We all clear our airspace inside the MOA when doing work, it's even stated in our pre-aerobatic checklist, but we do fly to the extream in the MOA, like it or not and HAVE to divide our attention.

FAA guys, please make yourself available to squadrons and tell us how we can do our jobs better and safer. You will have a captive audience.



I understand some of the attitude against military pilots. I fly with Know It All a-holes all the time. Guys that think they are ABOVE the law and fly like crap, even guys that can be unsafe. We weed them out when we can, but there will always be a few around. Same when I was a civialian flight instructor. I just think the public expects more from a military trained pilot, and sometimes we fall short. I apoligize for that.

Thanks for the good, open discussion here and hopefully we all got the points across.

 

[bssthound]

200'

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGG!!

I fly with Know It All a-holes all the time. Guys that think they are ABOVE the law and fly like crap, even guys that can be unsafe

Amen, I've seen that in both my Reserve and 121 gig.

 

[BushwickBill]

You will get a favoribale response if you call a squadron and/or wing and let them know you will be transiting. They cannot tell you NO, but may say it is going to be very active, or that one guy is going to be in there and will avoid your altitude. Wouldn't you like to know that?

Mostly I just glance over the Military section FI. I just wanted to know how you could go about contacting a squadron and how you could find out what squadron uses a certain MOA?

FYI everyone, airspace is taught as ok or not ok in the civi world. Everyone can tell you restricted areas are not ok to enter. I think there is quite a bit lost in translation when instructors teach MOA's are ok to enter but...

I always try to tell my students about my encounter with a C-17 in florida that was about 500' agl and in a 90 degree bank. I was in a car. Still it made a fairly big impression on me and it was while I was getting my PPL.

Still the "its ok to enter MOAs but" leaves a lot of people with the idea that its ok to enter MOAs. They just forget about the but...

 

[avbug]

Contacting a squadron to enquire about an airspace parcel is a futile concept...as airspace isn't assigned to just one squadron. Or Wing. Or group...you get the idea. How about joint use airspace?

Not even contacting ATC will enable you to know if the airspace will be hot in the near future. Just if it's in use now...and not even then all the time.

I'm sure a squadron would love for you to call. The PAO or XO has nothing better to do than wait around all day for your call...but it's not going to do much for you downrange as you cross the MOA.