Interesting MOA encounter with Viper

[NewmanF16]

I've almost had a midair with GA in twice in Gladden. Both times in the middle of a BFM set, while I was defensive teaching a stud offense.

Most GA guys are surprised to know those areas are uncontrolled, we get no warning from anyone that a civilian in entering the airspace, and we DO NOT have TCAS. No warning+no control+no TCAS=No SA. If we find someone during BFM it's pure luck, and hopefully we don't trade paint.

I agree it was poor judgement to rejoin on the idiots. I did find the appropriate time to demo flare jettison to my student after missing a Bonanza by 500', though. The Bo made for the border pretty quickly...

 

[milflyboy]

Don't know if US F-16s are allowed to do this, but in our Air Force we always select mode C off before intercepting Civilian aircraft in order not to set of a TCAS resolution advisory. Our GCI Controller has to know that we are doing it.

Also, the civilian will if he is in contact with any agency get notifed that we are doing it. If he has legal right to be there I wouldn't go within 1000' unless he lets me.

We do however sometimes set of TCAS on aircraft flying outside of our MOAs even though we are well established within. Especially during supersonic runs. We are aware of the problems associated with a TCAS res and try hard to avoid it.

 

[Doug Parker]

What are they cryin about???? I would have a rock hard chubby if a Viper joined up on my wing !!!!!!!! Prolly snap a few photos for posterity's sake...........


.

 

[414Flyer]

How in the world did this thread get twisted into whether or not the civvies should've been in the MOA? Everyone agrees they should not have been. I just didn't realize that so many people would think the appropriate response from the mil side would be to join up on those particular aircraft. I've been in alot of MOAs myself, even had to KIO a few times for unbriefed aircraft in the area. I never once considered joining up on them as some kind of way to "flip 'em the bird" or show them what dumba**es they were. Mostly because I'm not a dumba** myself. However, I will caution anyone out there who thinks that joining up on civilian aircraft is a good idea, especially without orders to do so, that nothing good can come of it. It's your career, your wings. Have at it if you think you're justified in doing so. Just realize that only support you'll get is from the posters here at FI.com.

I will agree, for the fact that unbriefed or at least unplanned formations, have resulted in numerous crashes.

While I am not going to automatically accept the 20 ft off his wing claim, would there have been a reason to join up on him? This thread has turned into the debate of going into MOAs, and not the original idea at hand. I had a Flanker once use me for intercept practice, but at least he did not park next to me.

 

[Caveman]

1. An MOA is shared airspace.
2. Both parties are entitled to be there.
3. Both parties have an obligation to see and avoid.
4. Neither party has the right to aggressively pursue the other one.
5. Neither party can legally fly in formation unless prior coordination is made.

If you're the one doing performance maneauvers it is your responsibility to make sure the area is clear. The guy flying straight and level has the responsibility to make sure where he's going is clear. It sounds like both parties did their part. The Viper called off whatever he was doing and the civilian was monitoring the area and his TCAS. Everything was good to go until the fighter stud decided to imitate Maverick. Bad call on his part. Sounds like his frustration turned into 'air rage'. Not good. I expect better judgement and a cooler head from someone charged with flying a multizillion dollar hotrod that could be loaded with all kinds of death and destruction.

 

[jetjock6]

Related Content:
Audio interview with Pilatus pilot Patrick McCall[/quote]

After listening to this interview, I'm a little confused. Was its purpose so some d-bag could complain about an encounter with a Viper in a place he shouldn't have been or so some d-bag lawyer could brag about the equipment in his Pilatus.

Maybe he just wishes he could close in on ambulances that fast.

 

[tumbleweed]

Isn't there a table on the Sectional Charts that lists the controlling agency, frequency, telephone number, and operating hours for the known MOAs? Or is that just Restricted Areas? Seems to me any prudent pilot (mil or civ) would take a couple easy steps before pointing their nose in airspace that may or may not be active. At least let someone know you're there!

That being said...I don't know anyone in any of the squadrons I've been in who would do as described (if indeed that is the way it happened). Usually when a stranger enters the airspace we set an altitude floor or ceiling to avoid them completely if possible. The airspace is designated a MOA for a reason...not just because we feel like it.

 

[ExAF]

Tool Lawyer

After listening to the podcast, he sounds even more clueless about what really goes on in a MOA and didn't even realize what he was doing. "I'm a lawyer and I can go wherever I want cause it's legal. They better stay out of my way and avoid me cause I'm straight and level." Also sounds like his avoidance maneuver was excessive since he didn't have the transgressor in sight. I doubt he was following TCAS guidance. "What would you like to see done as a result of this incident?" I think (and I know it will never happen) that all MOAs should be converted to Restricted Airspace so tools like this can only go there when they are inactive. Problem solved. Not the answer the layer would give. The AF pilot may have been wrong (if the story only has one side to it) in joining on the tool, but the whole problem could have been avoided if the tool had used better judgment and STAYED OUT OF THE ACTIVE MOA whether it is legal to go there or not. I sure would like to hear the other side of the story.

 

[SIG600]

For all you guys that have no tactical experience whatsoever and think see-and-avoid is possible, in MILTARY OPERATIONS AREAS (it's designated as such for a reason) while engaged... I have one thought for you....

I can not, nor will I devote the energy to look for you. I'm too busy trying to fight the guy 1000 feet away, and not hit him, while max performing my jet. IF YOU CRUISE THROUGH AND I HIT YOU... regardless whose at fault, I have an ejection seat. Enjoy the ride.

 

[Deuce130]

For all you guys that have no tactical experience whatsoever and think see-and-avoid is possible, in MILTARY OPERATIONS AREAS (it's designated as such for a reason) while engaged... I have one thought for you....

I can not, nor will I devote the energy to look for you. I'm too busy trying to fight the guy 1000 feet away, and not hit him, while max performing my jet. IF YOU CRUISE THROUGH AND I HIT YOU... regardless whose at fault, I have an ejection seat. Enjoy the ride.

Assuming you survive the collision. I'd rethink this position if I were you. Hopefully somone in your element or division is clearing if you're not going to. This is part of the deal when operating in a MOA isn't it?