Interesting MOA encounter with Viper

[ExAF]

Thought So

Here's the Luke AFB side of the story (maybe). From a post on this website (the one which originally posted the story), supposedly from another fighter pilot based at Luke:

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsiderBlog_IfYouCantHandleMigs_F16s_MOAs_197505-1.html

Let me clear up a few things about this incident.
1. The Pilatus and Raytheon Premier both flew through the middle of a 2 v 2 Tactical Intercept Mission
2. The Pilatus pilot flew right through the Blue Air CAP, leading to the first "intercept". The F-16 came no closer than 1000' to the Pilatus verified by the F-16 HUD tape (with radar lock), ACMI track, and civil radar recording.
3. The "intercept" on the Corporate Image Aviation Jet (Raytheon Premier) ocurred as a result of a fast mover (320 KIAS) in the middle of the fight at 16,500. This happened to be the middle of the Red Air altitude block (5-9s). The F-16 came no closer than 600', verified by HUD tape (with radar lock), ACMI track, and civil radar recording.
4. The accounts by both civil pilots of aggressive maneuvering and 10' and 20' spacing by the F-16 pilot we're verified as false by HUD tape and recorded ACMI data.
5. Thankfully the civilian aircraft were seen prior to becoming a further factor to the F-16 training.
The F-16 training was terminated as a result of the traffic. Total cost to taxpayer at ~ $8000 per flying hour x 4 F-16s x 1.3 = $41,600 lost + cost of bad press received due to civilians flying through the MOA closest to the world's largest F-16 base + cost of investigation ($ amount yet determined).
For everyone's safety, please don't fly through active MOA's. If we end up with a mid air, we all lose! www.seeandavoid.org
posted by Luke Viperpilot on April 3, 2008 (report

Game...Set...Match.

 

[AnimalMother]

Alright, I can't take it anymore...

1. Military fighter pilots are not going to "get used to" looking for civilian clowns in the middle of a hot MOA that are doing 200 knots while we're trying to lead a 4 ship of fighters doing 500 knots plus, whether gas is $4, $10, or $100 a gallon. When the MOA is hot, it's hot. There is a reason why we're there, i.e. we're in there training to ensure we keep this country free. I don't give a flying f*ck what gas costs you, but I'm sure you'd rather have us in there training than you speaking Chinese and having zero ability to buy gas freely at all.

2. You don't have a dog in this fight, you did get that part correct. You don't know the first thing about what we do, and in this case ignorance is not bliss.

3. And frankly you're right about it's not smart flying through a MOA if you do indeed value you're life. Reference bullet #1. I'm sure paying a little more in gas costs certainly outweighs you never flying again right?

Bottom line for all civilian guys out there - don't fly through a hot MOA (legal or not). It's just plain stupid. I grew up flying 172's long before I joined the military so I have all the respect for GA. And I also fly for the airlines. But don't be an idiot.

Gutsiest post I have ever seen Mav. China already owns us.

 

[Frisko]

Granted, it's mostly via radar, but it's pretty effective. You know when you get a hit whether or not it's a non-player

Must be nice (reference profile)

Agreed, we clear the best we can, with or without radar. Still a big problem.

Noted that Deuce used the big "IF". I think random hypothesizing still hurts the incident pilot's cause, but I guess that's the name of the game here.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My thought is he might have been trying to get his tail number or letting the guy know he is causing problems. I truely don't think he was trying to be a danger.

If the F-16 pilot was being dangerous then he should be punished.

I don't get this..... getting his tail number?

The TCAS in civ aircraft tell pilots to get away from the threat... so the closer the tactical jet gets the harder the civ pilot tries to get away...

What would the tactical jet pilot do with his tail number? Call 1-800-FAA-NARC?

I call BS on the F-16 guy for pursueing, IF that is the facts... He should've just flown away....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Gutsiest post I have ever seen Mav. China already owns us.

He's AF not Navy... so its Doug Masters...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Alright, I can't take it anymore...

Stand back... Scrapdog can't take it no more!!

1. Military fighter pilots are not going to "get used to" looking for civilian clowns in the middle of a hot MOA that are doing 200 knots while we're trying to lead a 4 ship of fighters doing 500 knots plus, whether gas is $4, $10, or $100 a gallon. When the MOA is hot, it's hot. There is a reason why we're there, i.e. we're in there training to ensure we keep this country free. I don't give a flying f*ck what gas costs you, but I'm sure you'd rather have us in there training than you speaking Chinese and having zero ability to buy gas freely at all.

Damm liberal Chinese loving MOA insurgents!! Ya shoulda splashed 'em with your jet with Chinese made parts!!! They are degrating our free loving country!! Forcing thier chinese ways... barging through MOAs! But you tell em Scrapdog on your computer with chinese parts!

Question? Did you joing the Armed Services cause you wanted a cool job or you need aggrandizement?

Why is it many if not most MIL guys serve with humility?

2. You don't have a dog in this fight, you did get that part correct. You don't know the first thing about what we do, and in this case ignorance is not bliss.

Who let the (Scrap)dog out? Who? Who?

No idea what you do? shhhhhhhh secrets! Do you have a Top Secret Clerance? Can you tell us? Maybe? Just a hint?

3. And frankly you're right about it's not smart flying through a MOA if you do indeed value you're life. Reference bullet #1. I'm sure paying a little more in gas costs certainly outweighs you never flying again right?

Today on Jerry Springer.... Scrapdog speaks out!

Bottom line for all civilian guys out there - don't fly through a hot MOA (legal or not). It's just plain stupid. I grew up flying 172's long before I joined the military so I have all the respect for GA. And I also fly for the airlines. But don't be an idiot.

So... Civilian guys should not be idiots cause you flew C172s long before you were a MIL pilot?

I think what will really change those idiots is the fact that you also fly for the airlines.


Magnum.... might I suggest you proof read his stuff before he posts....

 

[MJG]

You totally missed my point. I do not for one second condone any GA pilot flying through an active MOA, I agree it's one of the more dangerous things you can do in an aircraft.

All I'm saying is that those of you who fly military aircraft in MOA's should expect these kinds of incidents to not only continue to happen, but to increase in frequency.

I don't know jack about what you guys do in there. What I do know is the mentality of these private aircraft owners. We're talking about men who have far more money than they do common sense. I'm telling you right now that these men and their high priced, high performance aircraft are going to continue cutting through active MOAs just to save a few bucks on their fuel bills. Why do you think these two clowns were flying VFR in the first place?

I don't get it either, if you can afford a PC-12 or Eclipse, then why the heck are you worried about a couple extra bucks in fuel costs? But I'm telling you, I've been around these people, I know how they think and operate, and they're some of the cheapest people you will ever meet. They pull into an FBO with their high priced turbine and totally stiff the line guys who are busting their butts to accomodate them. Why, because they are cheap A-holes, that's why.

I totally agree, their SHOULD be more airspace designated as restricted. Sadly until that happens, this is going to be a problem. The way to change it is to embrace your fellow civilian pilots who happen to SHARE you outrage. They are the ones who belong to the alphabet groups, NBAA, AOPA, SAA, EAA, etc.

Any time the government proposes to restrict airspace in this country, it is these groups who are the loudest to oppose it. Believe it or not, some members of these groups do not march in lock step with the belief that we should not give up more airspace to the military. Some members are educated enough to realize the enormous handicap we have placed on our service personelle by restricting their training times and spaces.

To wrap it all up: Some of us are on your side of this arguement!

 

[popgoesbubble]

Well after reading the Air Force report here looks like Mr. McCall is gonna have some explaining to do. I hope the Air Force sends him the Bill for the Tax payers money he wasted for flying like an Idiot.

If you get a chance take a look at his website www.patrickMcCall.com looks like he's doing pretty well if he owns his own PC-12 I'm sure he has a nice home somewhere in the Newport Beach area. I say send him the Bill. He's also on AM 870 where he give legal advice to callers maybe we should all be call him and give him flying advice about flying thru Hot MOA's.

I think the arguement about being able to fly thru MOA's is Weak it's just like pilots flying into uncontrolled airfields with no radios and doing pattern work. Is it Legal? Yes Is it safe and Smart? Hell No!

How many of you have gone into a uncontrolled airport done everything by the book set up your pattern entry with the other aircraft in the vicinity only to get cut off by some fool thats not talking to anyone and forced to do a go around?

If Mr. McCall is a "Highly Experienced" Pilot as he claims he should have filed an IFR flight plan like the rest of the Professionals out there

 

[Future SNA]

What a D-Bag. I mean for Christ's sake is 600' even considered formation flying? Sounds like stuff they do in MC-130 land...."yup, I can just make out there's another plane out there...yeah buddy...we're formation flying now."

 

[Bjammin]

I don't get this..... getting his tail number?

The TCAS in civ aircraft tell pilots to get away from the threat... so the closer the tactical jet gets the harder the civ pilot tries to get away...

What would the tactical jet pilot do with his tail number? Call 1-800-FAA-NARC?

I call BS on the F-16 guy for pursueing, IF that is the facts... He should've just flown away....

Yes, their tail number. You can find where they came from or going, call the FBO, and have them leave a message on the windscreen. We've done it a couple of times so they may think twice about doing it again.

They have all been C-172's so I don't think TCAS was a player.

It's just one more, little way we can get the word out that flying through an active MOA is dangerous.



ONCE AGAIN, is anyone willing to call the users of the MOAs that they are going to be going through???

 

[erj-145mech]

Yes, their tail number. You can find where they came from or going, call the FBO, and have them leave a message on the windscreen. We've done it a couple of times so they may think twice about doing it again.

If they are VFR, chances are that there was no flight plan filed, so how are you going to find out where they came from and where they are going?

If you call my FBO and tell them to leave a message on the windshield, they are going to tell you to go pack sand!

MOA's are joint use airspace. Its not your place to tell someone that they do not belong there. If your mission requires you to maneuver with careless abandon, then you need to take your games to a restricted area.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes, their tail number. You can find where they came from or going, call the FBO, and have them leave a message on the windscreen. We've done it a couple of times so they may think twice about doing it again.

They have all been C-172's so I don't think TCAS was a player.

It's just one more, little way we can get the word out that flying through an active MOA is dangerous.



ONCE AGAIN, is anyone willing to call the users of the MOAs that they are going to be going through???

You mean like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x70o5lTd1U

 

[stonewall]

MOA's are joint use airspace. Its not your place to tell someone that they do not belong there. If your mission requires you to maneuver with careless abandon, then you need to take your games to a restricted area.

It's not careless abandon, nor are they games. I think you know that...I think you were just trying to say something cool and witty. Instead, you come off sounding much more arrogant than any fighter guy on here.

I'd love to fly in restricted or warning areas on every sortie. Unfortunately, we can't always get it. It's also tough to redesignate MOAs as restricted because, well, people like you will b*tch and complain about the military "games."

 

[Papyco]

Why is it so hard for non Tac-Air guys (non fighter) to understand that I can’t spend time to look outside to watch out for a retarded 172 when i am running down range at Mach .9+? Let alone when I am in a 2v1 (or any WVR engagement). It’s not like I am going to be able to clear the space about me when I can go from 5,000 ft to 35,000 ft in the time it takes for a 172 pilot to pick his nose.

A fighter guy is not being unsafe when he says that he can’t spend time to avoid you. He is simply trying to avoid hitting the guy he is currently fighting (ever pull G while fighting another fighter? It’s a full time job just maintaining separation from the guy you have padlocked). It’s not like flying at 200kts in straight and level flight. I don’t care how many C-130 hours you have. Unless you have flown multiple BFM engagements with multiple bandits/fighters don’t try to tell me how to keep an eye out for a dumba$$ who decides to go wandering through my DEZ.

Just stay out of an active MOA. If you can’t, please coordinate with the controlling agency. There are smart ways of crossing an active MOA. The civilian pilot in question decided he was too good to use commonsense. The F-16’s in question probably wanted to make sure that the civilians were indeed proceeding out of the area before they restarted their engagement.

600 feet being confused for 10 feet. You got to me sh!$$%ng me.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why is it so hard for non Tac-Air guys (non fighter) to understand

Why is it so hard for you TacAir guys to understand? Is this all about you? If the DoD and the Dept of Commerce and Transportation wanted you to have an exclusive area they'd give it to you...

I guess you gotta share.

The F-16’s in question probably wanted to make sure that the civilians were indeed proceeding out of the area before they restarted their engagement.

Seems like a controller activity. You come across as a bully.

600 feet being confused for 10 feet. You got to me sh!$$%ng me.

Again... you don't want to understand, but you want to be understood? You just come across as the Bad Ass TacAir guy who is all righteous.

In this post 9/11 world, a Civ guy with TCAS TA/RA going off and a fighter jet in view can be pretty intimidating... As the CIV guy tries to get away the F-16 'aggressively pursue' and 'follow in a dive'... you'd better bet the 600ft looks like 10 feet.

The guy was probably fearful.. and fear turns to anger...


Seems your problem is how MOAs are designated... talk to your gov't.

 

[SIG600]

Wait a minute... so the lawyer LIED?!?!?!

Say it ain't SO! He'll need a shoe horn to get his foot out of his mouth.

 

[stonewall]

Sounds like stuff they do in MC-130 land...."yup, I can just make out there's another plane out there...yeah buddy...we're formation flying now."

Out of curiosity, how close do MC-130s fly when they're doing close trail on the gogs at 500' AGL?

I know the answer, but I don't think you do. Glad to see that didn't stop you from posting.

 

[Papyco]

If the DoD and the Dept of Commerce and Transportation wanted you to have an exclusive area they'd give it to you...

No they can’t. Civilians will b!#$% and moan too much.

The guy was probably fearful.. and fear turns to anger...

He should have been scared. He could have caused a midair. Talk to the controlling agency before you go wandering through a hot MOA.

Seems your problem is how MOAs are designated... talk to your gov't

You really think that we don’t bitch about this? Nothing gets done because AOPA/Airlines/FAA/whoever always wins. In the last 20 years we have lost a lot of MOAs. We can’t even keep what we have, let alone get new airspace. Any idea how long it took the Navy to get a new MOA over NAS Lemoore? Answer: Decades.

 

[stonewall]

I don’t care how many C-130 hours you have. Unless you have flown multiple BFM engagements with multiple bandits/fighters don’t try to tell me how to keep an eye out for a dumba$$ who decides to go wandering through my DEZ.

You should be keeping an eye out for ANYONE who wanders into your DEZ. If they're in your DEZ, it's your job to know about it.

I know what you mean in your post, but I find it ironic that you try to correct another mil aviator while perhaps confusing your own terms.

Try to remember this is about MOAs and uninformed GA guys flying through them. They shouldn't be there, but IF they are, and you hit one doing BFM (an extremely rare likelihood, I know), saying "that guy was a dumba**" won't get you off the hook.

 

[Papyco]

They shouldn't be there, but IF they are, and you hit one doing BFM (an extremely rare likelihood, I know), saying "that guy was a dumba**" won't get you off the hook.

Magnum,

You know what I mean. Of course I should know what is going on in my DEZ. What happens when you are getting reverse AIC and no one sees that low flying 172? Where do a lot of BFM engagements end up?

This is the last thing I am going to post on this topic.

Out.