Interesting MOA encounter with Viper

[SIG600]

200'.

Oh I know, had a great view from up high with Baro Alt Hold selected, watching them through my NVG's and FLIR, glad I didn't have to do that.

I have the upmost respect for all the USAF bretheren, but I'll always make fun of ascots too.

 

[Bjammin]

Many times MOA's are not hot and most centers will have the info for you. The contrlling angency for the MOA's is listed in the low charts and, I think, the sectionals. You will get a favoribale response if you call a squadron and/or wing and let them know you will be transiting. They cannot tell you NO, but may say it is going to be very active, or that one guy is going to be in there and will avoid your altitude. Wouldn't you like to know that?

I am far in away in agreement that ANY mil guy that deviates from a MTR or flys unsafe outside a MOA should be delt with EXTREAMLY harsly, both from inside AND outside the military.

We all clear our airspace inside the MOA when doing work, it's even stated in our pre-aerobatic checklist, but we do fly to the extream in the MOA, like it or not and HAVE to divide our attention.

FAA guys, please make yourself available to squadrons and tell us how we can do our jobs better and safer. You will have a captive audience.



I understand some of the attitude against military pilots. I fly with Know It All a-holes all the time. Guys that think they are ABOVE the law and fly like crap, even guys that can be unsafe. We weed them out when we can, but there will always be a few around. Same when I was a civialian flight instructor. I just think the public expects more from a military trained pilot, and sometimes we fall short. I apoligize for that.

Thanks for the good, open discussion here and hopefully we all got the points across.

 

[bssthound]

200'

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGG!!

I fly with Know It All a-holes all the time. Guys that think they are ABOVE the law and fly like crap, even guys that can be unsafe

Amen, I've seen that in both my Reserve and 121 gig.

 

[BushwickBill]

You will get a favoribale response if you call a squadron and/or wing and let them know you will be transiting. They cannot tell you NO, but may say it is going to be very active, or that one guy is going to be in there and will avoid your altitude. Wouldn't you like to know that?

Mostly I just glance over the Military section FI. I just wanted to know how you could go about contacting a squadron and how you could find out what squadron uses a certain MOA?

FYI everyone, airspace is taught as ok or not ok in the civi world. Everyone can tell you restricted areas are not ok to enter. I think there is quite a bit lost in translation when instructors teach MOA's are ok to enter but...

I always try to tell my students about my encounter with a C-17 in florida that was about 500' agl and in a 90 degree bank. I was in a car. Still it made a fairly big impression on me and it was while I was getting my PPL.

Still the "its ok to enter MOAs but" leaves a lot of people with the idea that its ok to enter MOAs. They just forget about the but...

 

[avbug]

Contacting a squadron to enquire about an airspace parcel is a futile concept...as airspace isn't assigned to just one squadron. Or Wing. Or group...you get the idea. How about joint use airspace?

Not even contacting ATC will enable you to know if the airspace will be hot in the near future. Just if it's in use now...and not even then all the time.

I'm sure a squadron would love for you to call. The PAO or XO has nothing better to do than wait around all day for your call...but it's not going to do much for you downrange as you cross the MOA.

 

[jetjock6]

I always try to tell my students about my encounter with a C-17 in florida that was about 500' agl and in a 90 degree bank. I was in a car. Still it made a fairly big impression on me and it was while I was getting my PPL.

So there I was...in a car 500' AGL 1v1 with a C-17 in a 90 degree bank.

This story made a fairly big impression on me too.

 

[bagasticks]

Contacting a squadron to enquire about an airspace parcel is a futile concept...as airspace isn't assigned to just one squadron. Or Wing. Or group...you get the idea. How about joint use airspace?

Not even contacting ATC will enable you to know if the airspace will be hot in the near future. Just if it's in use now...and not even then all the time.

I'm sure a squadron would love for you to call. The PAO or XO has nothing better to do than wait around all day for your call...but it's not going to do much for you downrange as you cross the MOA.

Actually MOA's are "owned" by one controlling unit. When we (military flying unit) want to use one we have to call the controlling unit and schedule it to deconflict with other units. So it is absolutely not "futile" to call the controlling agency as they know who has it scheduled and when. Additionally it only takes 30 seconds to pull up center and say "Center, N69XXX vfr 8500' approaching bison low, is it active?". . . . . . .

 

[stonewall]

but I'll always make fun of ascots too.

Yeah, those things are the proverbial albatross around our necks.

I personally haven't worn one since '97, and that was only because our Wing CC ordered it. Another Wing CC tried to get us all wearing them at another base from '02-'04. We wore 'em for about a month and then he forgot about it. O-7s and up tend to think their important for some reason.

 

[bagasticks]

Yeah, those things are the proverbial albatross around our necks.

I personally haven't worn one since '97, and that was only because our Wing CC ordered it. Another Wing CC tried to get us all wearing them at another base from '02-'04. We wore 'em for about a month and then he forgot about it. O-7s and up tend to think their important for some reason.

They ARE important! they are the most silky, smooth, effective dream-catchers ever!

 

[avbug]

Actually MOA's are "owned" by one controlling unit. When we (military flying unit) want to use one we have to call the controlling unit and schedule it to deconflict with other units. So it is absolutely not "futile" to call the controlling agency as they know who has it scheduled and when.

A squadron is not the controlling agency. "SeaLord," or "Clover Control" or "Nellis Range Control" is not a squadron.

I said nothing about futility involving contacting the controlling agency. You should absolutely contact the controlling agency. However, for the civillian pilot wishing to transit a MOA will not necessarily get reliable information from ATC, and may be unable to contact the range or MOA agency, and the MOA may be overseen by civillian ATC until it's active. ATC may not know, and typically does not know when it's going to be active, until it goes active. Part time MOAs may also go active off-hours.

Additionally it only takes 30 seconds to pull up center and say "Center, N69XXX vfr 8500' approaching bison low, is it active?". . . . . . .

It takes less than 30 seconds, but ATC can only tell the pilot if it's not active now...and may not even know that. ATC can't say what will happen thirty seconds from now.

 

[BushwickBill]

I always try to tell my students about my encounter with a C-17 in florida that was about 500' agl and in a 90 degree bank. I was in a car. Still it made a fairly big impression on me and it was while I was getting my PPL.

So there I was...in a car 500' AGL 1v1 with a C-17 in a 90 degree bank.

This story made a fairly big impression on me too.

I had been borrowing a gents C-140 and buzzing round florida in all kinds of weather and airspace at 500', until I saw that C-17. It was a good thing I wasn't in the C-140 and I was in the car. After that I stayed the funk out of MOAs.

I've passed this tidbit on to students and said "yes you can enter a MOA but why the hell would you want to?"

BTW this is what everyone is in a pissing match about.

 

[ExAF]

Ascot?

Yeah, those things are the proverbial albatross around our necks.

I personally haven't worn one since '97, and that was only because our Wing CC ordered it. Another Wing CC tried to get us all wearing them at another base from '02-'04. We wore 'em for about a month and then he forgot about it. O-7s and up tend to think their important for some reason.

Magnum, you are not old enough to have ever worn an ascot, unless you were a SAC missile weenie or a T-bird in a previous life. Scarf for sure....ascot...no way!

 

[mzaharis]

Now AOPA is making a stink about this.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=de551ad4-bb51-49e0-9882-2dcfa0d52455&

I hope that, if the data I provided earlier was accurate (it was from an unofficial person claiming to be a Luke F-16 pilot), that the AF is able to present their side of the story.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

http://www.seeandavoid.org/

 

[stonewall]

http://www.seeandavoid.org/

Very good website for mil and civ. I'm pretty sure it was generated by a Navy guy as part of a thesis or something like that. Check it out.