• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Interesting Article about SWA from Motley Fool....

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
One concept that I haven't seen mentioned is STABILITY. I've done the Bogota thing, the Europe thing, and the domestic U.S. thing. More or less a layover is a layover and it can be great or bad mostly based on yourself. But while SWA pay used to be mediocre to good and now is great (relatively speaking) two things seem to stand out for those guy - they mostly ENJOY working for their company, and they have enjoyed phenomenal STABILITY. No furloughs. Ever. No rocket rides (like the late 90s UAL pay rates)to the moon, but no crashes into the dirt (a host of other airlines).

I'd swap Bogota or London for stability and joy/pride in my company/employees...in a heartbeat.

They also now have tons of stagnation due to the AT seniority merger with that young pilot group, and they lost that "family" feeling after the AT guys got worked over by GK in the merger. I think you should "go for it" and sit in a 737 right seat for 15 years doing 5 legs per day for the next 30 years! You're gonna LUV it!


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
I guess legacy airline pilots bid from equipment to equipment, with the resultant training cycles, just to get different layovers? Wow. Got it.

By the way, why did you put quotes around "steak soup" above, like it's not really steak soup? We were actually talking about honest-to-God, no-kidding soup. With pieces of steak in it. You know, mostly liquid food that you eat with a spoon from a bowl. It wasn't a code or anything. What kind of perverted sexual innuendo were you thinking of? What kind of "steak soup" do YOU get on your layovers, General? Inquiring minds want to know.

Bubba

You didn't know that? Here's a clue you NEED, as you get older, you want to work less. That means fewer legs, longer layovers, etc. As you get more senior, at a legacy you can bid larger planes, fly one leg a day to somewhere interesting, and enjoy the layover. People do bid that way. You guys have productive trips mostly, but all have tons of legs, short turn times, and all the things that make people tired. 30 years of that would stink! And, most people would agree with me. Sorry, you're wrong again. Tomorrow, enjoy Reno, San Jose, Las Vegas, Albuquerque, and Midland. Oh, I mean enjoy that for a couple more decades! No thanks. One leg to a great dinner in Germany or Japan is a heck of a lot better, and pays as well or better. (soon will on 757/767, already more on larger widebodies).


Bye Bye----General Lee


PS----never heard of steak soup.
 
Last edited:

scoreboardII

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Posts
2,694
Total Time
xxxxxx
They also now have tons of stagnation due to the AT seniority merger with that young pilot group, and they lost that "family" feeling after the AT guys got worked over by GK in the merger. I think you should "go for it" and sit in a 737 right seat for 15 years doing 5 legs per day for the next 30 years! You're gonna LUV it!


Bye Bye---General Lee
We'll be fine, enjoy your furlough, you're going to LUV it.
 

SWA Bubba

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Posts
2,300
Total Time
>10000
They also now have tons of stagnation due to the AT seniority merger with that young pilot group, and they lost that "family" feeling after the AT guys got worked over by GK in the merger. I think you should "go for it" and sit in a 737 right seat for 15 years doing 5 legs per day for the next 30 years! You're gonna LUV it!


Bye Bye---General Lee


It's pretty funny that you play the Airtran thing out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, we "screwed them over and mostly stapled them," but on your other hand, "Southwest pilots are screwed with stagnation because of all the Airtran people in front of us." Did it not occur to you that those two things contradict each other? And that it's stupid that you actually try to make two separate arguments using contradictory logic bases?

Anyway, just like United and Continental and, of course, Northwest and your Delta, there was an integration list--people plugged in to create one big list. Some peope did better than others. And, just like every other airline, including Delta, as we grow (and people retire), everybody, including juniors move up. I'm surprised that you didn't know how that works, General.

Back to the soup. And I gotta' say that I find it extremely unlikely that a seasoned and professional traveller--nay, a seasoned and professional WORLDLY traveller--like yourself, General, has never heard of steak soup. Why, they even have it in Europe. In fact I bet you could get on your fabulous German layover tonight!

Bubba

PS Have you also never heard of steak salad? :)
 

redflyer65

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2004
Posts
4,456
Total Time
8000
You didn't know that? Here's a clue you NEED, as you get older, you want to work less. That means fewer legs, longer layovers, etc. As you get more senior, at a legacy you can bid larger planes, fly one leg a day to somewhere interesting, and enjoy the layover. People do bid that way. You guys have productive trips mostly, but all have tons of legs, short turn times, and all the things that make people tired. 30 years of that would stink! And, most people would agree with me. Sorry, you're wrong again. Tomorrow, enjoy Reno, San Jose, Las Vegas, Albuquerque, and Midland. Oh, I mean enjoy that for a couple more decades! No thanks. One leg to a great dinner in Germany or Japan is a heck of a lot better, and pays as well or better. (soon will on 757/767, already more on larger widebodies).


Bye Bye----General Lee


PS----never heard of steak soup.

General, I have to call BS here. Older guys want to fly 12-18 hr legs toward the end of their careers? I know plenty that bid OFF international because it's so hard on their bodies. Basically they've been there and see how bad it is. Granted there are some with 3 ex-wives that stay on the widebody just for the money. NOT the schedules or overnights. Complete BS.

They don't bid into the DC9, but usually look at 4-5hr transcon legs like the Airbus, 737, etc.

Just keep talking. You constantly make points on looking more and more like an idiot.
 

SWA Bubba

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Posts
2,300
Total Time
>10000
You didn't know that? Here's a clue you NEED, as you get older, you want to work less. That means fewer legs, longer layovers, etc. As you get more senior, at a legacy you can bid larger planes, fly one leg a day to somewhere interesting, and enjoy the layover. People do bid that way. You guys have productive trips mostly, but all have tons of legs, short turn times, and all the things that make people tired. 30 years of that would stink! And, most people would agree with me. Sorry, you're wrong again. Tomorrow, enjoy Reno, San Jose, Las Vegas, Albuquerque, and Midland. Oh, I mean enjoy that for a couple more decades! No thanks. One leg to a great dinner in Germany or Japan is a heck of a lot better, and pays as well or better. (soon will on 757/767, already more on larger widebodies).


Bye Bye----General Lee


PS----never heard of steak soup.


Sorry, had to tackle this again--I'm bored.

First, not "all have short legs." In fact, our average stage length has increased dramatically over the years. Next week, I'm doing a three-day with a total of 5 legs (one-two-two), with decent layovers, and I'm a pretty junior captain. That's my personal preference in a trip. Some people like long hauls, some, not so much. You can bid what you want here at SWA; I think that's called variety.

As far as "all the things that make people tired" go, I believe that if you talk to people who know what they're talking about (not you, of course), you'll find that what most makes people tired is crossing multiple time zones over and again.

Finally, as far as "most people agree with [you]," I'm generously assuming that you meant that as sarcasm. My buddy at AA who flies 757/767 International out of New York does so because it's the junior-most position in the company. He's on the bottom, and got displaced out of his LAX job where he flew only to MIA, JFK, and DFW. What does that tell you?

People bid for what they want and what they can hold. Some like international, while others avoid international like the plague. Some like long hauls, while some hate them. Some like low-paying, easy pariings with long layovers; some prefer dense pairings to maximize pay. For you to say that what you do--one leg to Europe, a long layover, and one leg back (which pays dick, pairing-wise, by the way)--is the epitome of what every airline pilot wants to do, is actually the epitome of arrogance and stupidity. If you like it, good for you; but trust me, it's not what every airline pilot wants. At American, the juniors get forced to do this, because not enough senior pilots want to do it. But keep yappin'--maybe somebody will buy your schtick. I'm sure OYS (where IS that guy, by the way?) will agree with you even if no one else does.

Bubba
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
We'll be fine, enjoy your furlough, you're going to LUV it.

Riiight. Good luck with your current contract talks. You're gonna need it! See you in Hawaii, sometime next decade! Enjoy!


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

Whine Lover

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2005
Posts
1,497
Total Time
12000+
" Never argue with an idiot or a fool. They will succeed in bringing you down to their level and then beat you with experience. " - Unknown

" Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." - Mark Twain

How many pages of this so far....?


:)


( I am as guilty as the rest...)

One final thought:

If a certain individual is all about variety, we must wonder what other areas of " variety " they might explore.

To each his own. WHY try to extoll the virtues of one's beliefs over those of another?

Hitler and Door-Knocking-Bible Beaters are just two good examples...and we all love them...

Right?



Whine - OUT
 
Last edited:

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Sorry, had to tackle this again--I'm bored.

First, not "all have short legs." In fact, our average stage length has increased dramatically over the years. Next week, I'm doing a three-day with a total of 5 legs (one-two-two), with decent layovers, and I'm a pretty junior captain. That's my personal preference in a trip. Some people like long hauls, some, not so much. You can bid what you want here at SWA; I think that's called variety.

As far as "all the things that make people tired" go, I believe that if you talk to people who know what they're talking about (not you, of course), you'll find that what most makes people tired is crossing multiple time zones over and again.

Finally, as far as "most people agree with [you]," I'm generously assuming that you meant that as sarcasm. My buddy at AA who flies 757/767 International out of New York does so because it's the junior-most position in the company. He's on the bottom, and got displaced out of his LAX job where he flew only to MIA, JFK, and DFW. What does that tell you?

People bid for what they want and what they can hold. Some like international, while others avoid international like the plague. Some like long hauls, while some hate them. Some like low-paying, easy pariings with long layovers; some prefer dense pairings to maximize pay. For you to say that what you do--one leg to Europe, a long layover, and one leg back (which pays dick, pairing-wise, by the way)--is the epitome of what every airline pilot wants to do, is actually the epitome of arrogance and stupidity. If you like it, good for you; but trust me, it's not what every airline pilot wants. At American, the juniors get forced to do this, because not enough senior pilots want to do it. But keep yappin'--maybe somebody will buy your schtick. I'm sure OYS (where IS that guy, by the way?) will agree with you even if no one else does.

Bubba


Oh, so your buddy is at AA, not DL? Hmmmm. You didnt say that initially. AA currently isn't as strong as it used to be, and their route structure and bases are a bit different than DLs. So, please clarify next time.


One leg days across time zones also means more time to rest. Not like a 4 day am trip of yours with 4 or 5 legs a day. The problem fatigue wise with your trips is you don't usually stop after one long leg, you then add on a LAS and then an ONT. 30 years of that will just suck. Not every pilot wants to do long haul INTL, that is true. But, nobody, as they get older, wants to do multiple leg days. That is the difference. DL has narrowbodies that do transcons, but the vast majority of your trips have 3 or more legs per day, with most having 4-5. You can't get around that, that is your business model, it's what YOU do. That is ok for 10 years, maybe. 30? Heck no. Most legacies offer larger planes, even domestic, with longer stage lengths and easier trips, that are more senior. You just can't say otherwise. To top it off, there is the INTL flying option that many haven fallen in love with. Some people fly 12 day trips in the beginning of one month, and then one at the end of the next, with 35 days off in between. You can't do that.


Long trips pay what over here? I just did a 39 hour 6 day trip, with international override and international per diem. Our pay on my plane beats yours by 2015, and the bigger widebodies pay more. Before you get into your time and a half stuff with your contract, we have the same type of stuff, plus MAC charters all over the world, sports charters, and overtime available if you want it. Your pay advantage is waning, and he way GK has been talking lately, your new contract may not add much more, even though your AT brothers sure would like to get parity. It sure seems fair, right?

As far as OYS goes, I just checked his last post and it was a couple months ago. (according to his profile). Maybe he got fed up of your SWA schtick? Maybe he is doing upgrade training on something bigger? I'll have to give him a call and remind him not to forget about this wonderful place called FI. Do you have any messages I can give him? Nah..... He probably wouldn't care. Say hi to Tanker Clown while you're at it.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:

texman

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Posts
1,334
Total Time
69
So when are you going to upgrade Gen? It's time for you to come back to domestic flying. :)
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
" Never argue with an idiot or a fool. They will succeed in bringing you down to their level and then beat you with experience. " - Unknown

" Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." - Mark Twain

How many pages of this so far....?


:)


( I am as guilty as the rest...)

One final thought:

If a certain individual is all about variety, we must wonder what other areas of " variety " they might explore.

To each his own. WHY try to extoll the virtues of one's beliefs over those of another?

Hitler and Door-Knocking-Bible Beaters are just two good examples...and we all love them...

Right?



Whine - OUT

Someone here needs a drug test! Yeah, it's Whine.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

redflyer65

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2004
Posts
4,456
Total Time
8000
HAHA, a 39 hour 6 day? You've got to be kidding me. Keep it up General, tell me more.


And for the record....that sounds like it sucks. Glad you enjoy a six friggen day trip.


Boasting about your 2015 payrate already? Man, that's pretty weak General. And all for larger RJs and less Profit Sharing. Anderson must be a very happy man.
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
So when are you going to upgrade Gen? It's time for you to come back to domestic flying. :)

I can hold the 88 now, but I don't want to fly that plane, never have. I did fly the 737 for awhile in the late 90s, and I can hold it in NYC now, but it will be awhile for ATL. So, when I can be a line holder in ATL on it , I'll bid it. We start getting 100 737-900ERs next year,(3 per month starting late Summer) which will help expedite it. With the huge retirement numbers we have coming up and the expansion with the 717s (88 from you and rumors of possibly 25 more from Boeing that were ex Mexicana Click) and 25 MD90s coming soon also, there will be a lot more domestic Captain slots coming. How about you? Oh, never mind....


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
So when are you going to upgrade Gen? It's time for you to come back to domestic flying. :)

HAHA, a 39 hour 6 day? You've got to be kidding me. Keep it up General, tell me more.


And for the record....that sounds like it sucks. Glad you enjoy a six friggen day trip.


Boasting about your 2015 payrate already? Man, that's pretty weak General. And all for larger RJs and less Profit Sharing. Anderson must be a very happy man.

We have plenty of those. Atlanta to Athens, back to JFK, back to Athens, and back to ATL. We had one ATL to Milan, back to JFK, back to Milan, and back to ATL. All 6 day trips, worth around 40 hours, with great layovers too, even Manhattan.

My 757/767 payrate per your is a bit less than your hourly payrate (trip pay etc) currently, but the 767-400/A330/777/744 all pay more per hour than your 737s, before you add the international override and higher per diem. In 2015, the 757/767 surpasses your current 12th year 737 pay, and the way GK is talking lately, you may not go higher. Good luck with that.

Anymore questions Red? Need more trip examples? A lot of INTL guys like 6 days trips worth 40 hours because they can commute twice a month and make 80 or more hours. The 777 has 3-4 day trips to Dubai and Johanesberg worth over 25 hours, with 2 legs total.

I like your misunderstanding of the profit sharing. First of all, that doesn't start until 2014 (all awarded on Valentines day each year), and of 2013 is very profitable, profit sharing actually increases over what we have today, from 15% to 20%. With the ancillary revenue almost 3 times what you make, there's a good chance it will happen.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:

SWA Bubba

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Posts
2,300
Total Time
>10000
Oh, so your buddy is at AA, not DL? Hmmmm. You didnt say that initially. AA currently isn't as strong as it used to be, and their route structure and bases are a bit different than DLs. So, please clarify next time.




Bye Bye---General Lee


Uh, go back and read it again. I DID say AA the first time. YOU are my only buddy at Delta, General! :)

Bubba
 

redflyer65

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2004
Posts
4,456
Total Time
8000
My 757/767 payrate per your is a bit less than your hourly payrate (trip pay etc) currently, but the 767-400/A330/777/744 all pay more per hour than your 737s, before you add the international override and higher per diem. In 2015, the 757/767 surpasses your current 12th year 737 pay, and the way GK is talking lately, you may not go higher. Good luck with that.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Again, all because you decided to sellout on other important items. Well done Sir!
 

SWA Bubba

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Posts
2,300
Total Time
>10000
...but the vast majority of your trips have 3 or more legs per day, with most having 4-5. You can't get around that, that is your business model, it's what YOU do. ....

Bye Bye---General Lee

Where do you get this stuff? "Most have 4-5"? It appears that you are as uninformed about Southwest schedules as you are about everything else you blather on about. Makes me wonder if you even know anything about Delta.

Bubba
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Uh, go back and read it again. I DID say AA the first time. YOU are my only buddy at Delta, General! :)

Bubba

The only one? I have a few at SWA, but you are now included. Thanks man. I'm done with this back and forth. I was just saying there is a difference, but if you enjoy yours, good for you. Just like that crazy guy Whine, I'm OUT.

Hasta. :)


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Where do you get this stuff? "Most have 4-5"? It appears that you are as uninformed about Southwest schedules as you are about everything else you blather on about. Makes me wonder if you even know anything about Delta.

Bubba

Not true, I have friends at SWA, and they tell me about the trips. Lots of legs. OUT!

Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Top