Integration Day

[Partyfoul]

What's is anyone's opinion of the NJI FO's that are senior to the most junior Capt at NJA? No bypass pay for them I guess would be fair also??

 

[YankeeEcho]

What's is anyone's opinion of the NJI FO's that are senior to the most junior Capt at NJA? No bypass pay for them I guess would be fair also??

Bypass pay has never existed at NJI and not expected. My understanding is that it is gone forever at NJA after the last contract.

 

[Diesel]

I haven't seen a 4.2 GIV in a while I thought we switched them.

People ask me when I'll make GIV capt I tell them probably in 20 years or so. Because even though I'm a A/I FO 800 people above me have to upgrade in the IV before I can bid it.

There are no shortcuts. That is what is going to make this integration work.

Jeeze I go away and it turns into a 6 pager.

 

[o2bflyn]

Just a personal observation. I find it interesting that some of the same people that say there is nothing special about flying the G-whatevers would be the same people that would leave their current assignment at the drop of a hat to go fly one for NJI. Would you all be making the same arguements about GIV/V's if you flew one? Interesting.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Just a personal observation. I find it interesting that some of the same people that say there is nothing special about flying the G-whatevers would be the same people that would leave their current assignment at the drop of a hat to go fly one for NJI. Would you all be making the same arguements about GIV/V's if you flew one? Interesting.

That's a fair question. You've heard me say that there's nothing special about a G-IV when it comes to flying one. The basic fact is that a jet is a jet. Sure it's different from a Lear 25 but that's what a 4 week type rating school is for. I'm one of the guys that will be bidding the IV once the two sides merge. I won't leave "NJA" to go fly one. I like the IV because of the mission and I need to serve my time in the IV before bidding the V. It has nothing to do with any type of "wow" factor. Trust me, it's all the same when you're sitting there for 5 or 6 hours. That and there's those cute FAs.

 

[G200_PILOT]

I think this is more than enough time to upgrade all the NJI FO's to include the NJA guys that came over.

Just my guess!!!!

That's probably going to be a bad guess. Again, RTS may have hinted towards this in order to give you guys that good ol' "warm and fuzzy" feeling but this is just another one of those times where you're being misled. Remember that per the LOA, 1 out of 3 captain slots will be filled by an NJA pilot. How many FOs does NJI have? 100? 200? I seriously don't know so please tell me. If its 100, that means RTS has to be willing to "upgrade" 133 guys before the merger is complete. At an average cost of lets say $50,000.00 per crew member, he'd be dishing out $6.7 million to keep you guys "happy."

Yeah, you're right, all the NJI FOs will probably get upgraded prior to the merger. What's $6.7 million when it comes to you golden boyz?

 

[o2bflyn]

That's a fair question. You've heard me say that there's nothing special about a G-IV when it comes to flying one. The basic fact is that a jet is a jet. Sure it's different from a Lear 25 but that's what a 4 week type rating school is for. I'm one of the guys that will be bidding the IV once the two sides merge. I won't leave "NJA" to go fly one. I like the IV because of the mission and I need to serve my time in the IV before bidding the V. It has nothing to do with any type of "wow" factor. Trust me, it's all the same when you're sitting there for 5 or 6 hours. That and there's those cute FAs.

They can make or break a trip can't they.

I hope you don't think that was aimed at you specifically. It was more of a "question to the masses" as it were, but thanks for the response. I could not agreee with you more.

 

[RTRHD]

Also RTRHD, I realize 5000 is more then 2500. Anymore smart a$$ comments???

RNO I am just rattling yall's chain. We obviously have nothing to say about any of this. So none of this really matters. But it is fun to spin you guys up. Besides my smart a$$ comments are all I have,think about it have I ever really contributed to an intelligent conversation.:cartman:

 

[G200_PILOT]

No problem at all. The Gulfstream is a beautiful airplane. I'll never deny that. The problem that I've always had is the attitude of typical Gulfstream pilot. It's even worse than a Citation X pilot's ego!!!

Going to school for a G-IV is no different than going to school for a Falcon. Except for the fact that the Falcon is a better built airplane of course. Learning the procedures on how to fly into the depths of China or Russia is no different than learning how to use an HF and reporting points for the first time. Did we learn it in flight school during our private training? No, of course not. But as long as you have a reputable training department, it won't be an issue. This guy that's beating his chest about me not knowing how to fly inside China had to learn it as well. Did he pass his training because he's a rocket scientist or is he just a normal pilot that got good training? My guess is that he's no rocket scientist. Sorry...

 

[gutshotdraw]

That's probably going to be a bad guess. Again, RTS may have hinted towards this in order to give you guys that good ol' "warm and fuzzy" feeling but this is just another one of those times where you're being misled. Remember that per the LOA, 1 out of 3 captain slots will be filled by an NJA pilot. How many FOs does NJI have? 100? 200? I seriously don't know so please tell me. If its 100, that means RTS has to be willing to "upgrade" 133 guys before the merger is complete. At an average cost of lets say $50,000.00 per crew member, he'd be dishing out $6.7 million to keep you guys "happy."

Yeah, you're right, all the NJI FOs will probably get upgraded prior to the merger. What's $6.7 million when it comes to you golden boyz?

Here are the October schedule numbers (I may be off one or two because I am mathematically challenged):

GV PIC: 92 GV SIC: 36

In transition from GIV to GV in October:

GV PIC: 5 GV SIC: 12


GIV PIC: 116 GIV SIC: 65

Grand total: 326


I have no idea how many of the G-IV pilots are crossovers from NJA. Rough guess is 15 Captains and 7 or 8 F/O's.

Make of these numbers what you will.

 

[Ultra Grump]

What's is anyone's opinion of the NJI FO's that are senior to the most junior Capt at NJA? No bypass pay for them I guess would be fair also??

According to the VSL, there are only 6 NJI FOs that are senior to the most junior NJA PIC, and that by only 3 weeks (7/17/05 vs 8/8/05). My guess is that there's a good chance that at least those 6 guys will upgrade before the integration.

 

[ozpilot]

... to upgrade all the NJI FO's to include the NJA guys that came over.

If that happens the sh*t will really hit the fan. Reread Diesels last post.

 

[RTRHD]

I haven't seen a 4.2 GIV in a while I thought we switched them.

I just found two of them. I thought they were all gone also,along the the paper Jepps. I miss that Plainview.

 

[RNObased]

According to the VSL, there are only 6 NJI FOs that are senior to the most junior NJA PIC, and that by only 3 weeks (7/17/05 vs 8/8/05). My guess is that there's a good chance that at least those 6 guys will upgrade before the integration.

Help, me out here. Why should a person that has a 2005 hire date be allowed to upgrade to G4 capt???

If their number can't hold it on the VSL??

 

[gutshotdraw]

Because

1. We haven't integrated yet and the VSL is not yet binding in any way.
2. When pilots were hired prior to the contract in November 2005, they were told there was zero prospect of a union on the property and they would upgrade based on aircraft deliveries at NJI and they made their decision to accept the position based on that information.
3. They have been repeatedly told ever since that they would upgrade "unencumbered" by NJA pilots joining the NJI operation.
4. Pilots hired in early 2005 have already upgraded to G-IV Captain.
5. NJI pilots will continue to upgrade to G-IV Captain until the "drop-dead" date in the pending integration agreement.

I make no comment on whether these conditions are good, bad, or indifferent. I know "things change" and they undoubtedly will. I'm just stating the facts as they exist today in an effort to answer your question.

Just my guess, but I expect the pilots hired prior to the 2005 contract to upgrade to G-IV Captain prior to the drop-dead date (there aren't that many left). Anyone hired AFTER the contract......I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Because

1. We haven't integrated yet and the VSL is not yet binding in any way.
2. When pilots were hired prior to the contract in November 2005, they were told there was zero prospect of a union on the property and they would upgrade based on aircraft deliveries at NJI and they made their decision to accept the position based on that information.
3. They have been repeatedly told ever since that they would upgrade "unencumbered" by NJA pilots joining the NJI operation.
4. Pilots hired in early 2005 have already upgraded to G-IV Captain.
5. NJI pilots will continue to upgrade to G-IV Captain until the "drop-dead" date in the pending integration agreement.

I make no comment on whether these conditions are good, bad, or indifferent. I know "things change" and they undoubtedly will. I'm just stating the facts as they exist today in an effort to answer your question.

Just my guess, but I expect the pilots hired prior to the 2005 contract to upgrade to G-IV Captain prior to the drop-dead date (there aren't that many left). Anyone hired AFTER the contract......I wouldn't hold my breath.

I understand where you're coming from but you have to accept the fact that RTS isn't your best friend and he HAS indeed lied to all of you on several occasions. The fact that someone took the job under certain pretenses means nothing to me. You yourself said that things change. I can sympathize with you that it's not right to be misled, but remember that it wasn't us (NJA pilots) that misled you. We've been talking about single carrier and how it's eventually going to happen for years. This didn't just start a few years ago.

No matter what RTS promised you guys, the letter of the law states how things are going to be. It's very cut and dry. If RTS wants to upgrade all of the FOs to PIC, that's great. To me, it only means that several NJA pilots are going to get to upgrade/ transition over to the G-IV as well. Is it a one out of three for PIC upgrades or is it a one for one? Too lazy to look it up right now. Nevertheless, it benefits NJA pilots just as much as it benefits the NJI guys.

Keep in mind that this "drop dead" date you keep talking about is only about 2 months away so if RTS is going to pull a stunt like this, he better start doing it soon. I hope he has sim slots reserved for all this BS...

 

[RTRHD]

Help, me out here. Why should a person that has a 2005 hire date be allowed to upgrade to G4 capt???

If their number can't hold it on the VSL??

You can't be serious.

 

[RTRHD]

If its 100, that means RTS has to be willing to "upgrade" 133 guys before the merger is complete. At an average cost of lets say $50,000.00 per crew member, he'd be dishing out $6.7 million to keep you guys "happy."

Yeah, you're right, all the NJI FOs will probably get upgraded prior to the merger. What's $6.7 million when it comes to you golden boyz?

So we are in this for the money. The way you talk it's all about the Union. What about the $140,000 worth of types we all already have. Lets just throw that away. There is only 300 of us, we are joining your Union. So whats the big deal?

 

[fischman]

How many people do you think are getting in the door at NJA with 2500hrs?? No one.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

 

[fischman]

FWIW, not all the NJA guys are going to be jumping to the Gulfstream. I have a 2 hour ass, which restricts me to the XL/XLS or smaller.