Informational Stapling Compass to Delta Website

[Ad Lib]

DL pilots seem to think scope is bad too

Not true.

The mainline pilots at DL (NWA, US Air and United) have been taught to think of scope in economic terms, as something to be bargained with. When management wishes to violate scope, they see it as a bargaining event.

Pilots at Southwest, CAL & American seem to better understand scope is a job protection device.

The Delta pilots say the lack of furloughs (currently) and their contract justifies their position. They have created economic disincentives to furlough pilots.

It is a different approach to scope. Both camps think they have it right. Bankruptcy negotiations involved a lot of horse trading using credits for different parts of the contracts involved. It changed the thinking of those involved.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not true.

The mainline pilots at DL (NWA, US Air and United) have been taught to think of scope in economic terms, as something to be bargained with. When management wishes to violate scope, they see it as a bargaining event.

Pilots at Southwest, CAL & American seem to better understand scope is a job protection device.

The Delta pilots say the lack of furloughs (currently) and their contract justifies their position. They have created economic disincentives to furlough pilots.

It is a different approach to scope. Both camps think they have it right. Bankruptcy negotiations involved a lot of horse trading using credits for different parts of the contracts involved. It changed the thinking of those involved.

Ad Lib, if American pilots "get it" and Delta pilots don't "get it" regarding scope...why is Delta hiring and American has over a thousand pilots on furlough and hiring is not in sight for many years...How have they done better with "job security"?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Any talk of staple back in '99 when DAL bought ASA lead to a lynching by the "DOH" crowd as I recall.. We had the chance to end the RJ whipsaw once and for all at that time, but RJ (and ATR) captains felt they were entitled to 757 left seats since "I've been flying Delta passengers for 10 years!" was the state of mind!

At least the Compass guys have half a brain.. even if it's wishful thinking that the DAL MEC cares anything about the junior pilots enough to do this.

FMS-Speed, you still don't get it. We didn't demand DOH...We simply wanted to be treated fairly. DOH wasn't fair and a pure staple isn't fair. I'm glad it never happened....I think ASA has a bright future with Skywest. I would have been furloughed for many years with a pure staple. Instead I enjoyed a good schedule and a good paycheck during those years...Why would I want to give that up?

 

[JoeMerchant]

There was no DOH demand. Never happened.

If you claim it did happen, prove it. Reference one MEC publication which had any reference what so ever to a demand for DOH seniority published by an ASA, or Comair pilot. If it happened, some evidence must exist, somewhere.

DOH was (and is) a lie which was used to distract from the fact the mainline negotiators were outsourcing jobs. DOH was used to build mistrust and bigotry towards pilots who had no seat at the negotiating table. It was a distraction.

The only DOH merger proposal in Delta's recent history was taken by f-NWA pilots. Even they did not get it.

So why are some pilots still angry about something that had no chance of success if it did happen and as a matter of historical record, never even happened? ... and don't come back on here saying "I heard a guy in the crew room who heard JC Laswon's sister at the 31 Flavors say ...." If it was real it would have left a paper trail and there is none.

Fools, damned fools, are the reason we've outsourced half of our profession. Motivated by misinformation and bigotry they waste time attacking straw men, while ratifying contracts which outsource more and more jobs.

Well said...As Twain said: "A lie can travel halfway round the world while the truth is putting on it's shoes".

 

[HA25]

FMS-Speed, you still don't get it. We didn't demand DOH...We simply wanted to be treated fairly. DOH wasn't fair and a pure staple isn't fair. I'm glad it never happened....I think ASA has a bright future with Skywest. I would have been furloughed for many years with a pure staple. Instead I enjoyed a good schedule and a good paycheck during those years...Why would I want to give that up?

For the betterment of our profession.. Had we all (the "Commuter" guys) come together and sued ourselves into a staple (thereby getting the majority of the support of mainline pilots)... then this mess we're in today wouldn't exist, where 1/2 of domestic flying is done on RJ's at 1/2 the pay rates of mainline.. We replaced good mainline jobs with RJ's..

We got played by the ATA and airline managers.... they hung a carrot in front of a bunch of kids and told them of a "pilot shortage" so they all went into hawk so as to pay for their piloty mills... 22 years olds were flooding the new hire classes and all the while mainline was shrinking.

Factoring in the merger, DAL is smaller today than it was when I came to ASA in 1998... Imagine a world where one DAL contract covered the pay of all pilots flying "Delta" passengers... I like that better than the model we have today with 7 or 8 different separate seniority lists all fighting over the scraps of growth.

This is why.

 

[JoeMerchant]

For the betterment of our profession.. Had we all (the "Commuter" guys) come together and sued ourselves into a staple (thereby getting the majority of the support of mainline pilots)... then this mess we're in today wouldn't exist, where 1/2 of domestic flying is done on RJ's at 1/2 the pay rates of mainline.. We replaced good mainline jobs with RJ's..

So I should have fallen on my sword for "the betterment of our profession"...Tell me, how many mainline pilots have fallen on their swords for me or our "profession". Why are we just "commuter guys"....We do the same GD job. Why are we any less equal than them? The RJ was just another airplane....It was our fellow "professionals" that made it into something other than just another airplane.....Size of aircraft shouldn't matter.

We got played by the ATA and airline managers.... they hung a carrot in front of a bunch of kids and told them of a "pilot shortage" so they all went into hawk so as to pay for their piloty mills... 22 years olds were flooding the new hire classes and all the while mainline was shrinking.

I didn't get played...I saw this silly game all along. It was the superior mainline pilots that got "played"....They didn't want to fly "little airplanes" or "prop planes"....Their ego got us in this mess.

Factoring in the merger, DAL is smaller today than it was when I came to ASA in 1998... Imagine a world where one DAL contract covered the pay of all pilots flying "Delta" passengers... I like that better than the model we have today with 7 or 8 different separate seniority lists all fighting over the scraps of growth.

This is why.

Imagine that...It would have been great, and the ASA and CMR MECs proposed it back in 2000...Ego stopped it. You can spin it any way you want, but that is what happened. If it is the same flying, then you can't honestly expect to staple a 20 year ASA or CMR pilot below a Delta newhire....Keep it separate if that's what you want.....

 

[HA25]

aight John.. peace mang.

 

[Ad Lib]

Ad Lib, if American pilots "get it" and Delta pilots don't "get it" regarding scope...why is Delta hiring and American has over a thousand pilots on furlough and hiring is not in sight for many years...How have they done better with "job security"?

Everyone should stop and appreciate the irony of Joe Merchant sounding like he reads talking points prepared by the D-MEC.

After a three count to let that soak in. The buzz kill is, duh' the TWA merger :cartman:

 

[dicko]

You're still regurgitating this garbage? Didn't you get the memo? The Ford-Cooksey litigation died a rather unceremonious death about three years ago. Let it go. You guys went down in flames, and rightfully so.

Ignore PCL. He has become irrelevant.

He has left his signature on AirTran ALPA. It reads: 45 outsourced RJ's, including twenty 86 set jets flown by non union outsourced pilots.

Interesting interpretation of "protect Scope".