Informational Stapling Compass to Delta Website

[NuGuy]

it burns me to read this.....as an XJ pilot, I think great now that Delta took over Delta, there is one more main line carrier that I cannot get a job at unless I wait years and years for the phantom flow (historically NWA did not hire that many XJ pilots, and the flow....lets be real, flows sound good but mainline has to hire hundreds if not thousands in order for it to get down the list at XJ-so its a very dim light at the end of our long tunnel)

Great job coming up with this one guys, leave the rest of the wholly owned regionals hanging....oh by the way nice line in the sand, the EMB 76 seat jet looks like a mainline aircraft and the EMB 190 does even more! So lets get those and their pilots on the main line list! But lets not say anything about the 900, which has the same seats and the Bombardier 1000 will have the same seats as the EMB 190! Oh I forgot, the Bombardier looks like a regional jet......Whoever came up with this idea should be at ALPA national and direct more rediculous causes..... I am surprised that ALPA national does not spend millions more fighting the age 65 rule.....oh thats right, when it was a lost cause, they switched sides of that fight...

Oh by the way, I was for the age 65 rule change from the beginning since I saw that pensions were leaving us and that the 5 year hit on seniority list stagnation was worth doing what was right...... ALPA, get some common sense..... and delta.... and what ever happened to the days when an airline bought another airline, those pilots became a part of the pilot group? Oh that went out when mainline pilots thought they were too good to fly small jets.... get a frickin life dudes...I am going back to my drinks....

Boo fracking hoo....cry me a river. I don't see XJ offering up ALL of their seats in exchange for a flow. When you do, THEN maybe you can start complaining.

Compass seats are Delta seats, plain and simple.

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

So management knows that the pilots want this to happen. What will the Delta pilots be offering in return? This seems to be the piece of the puzzle that I am not seeing. Once management knows you guys want this, the red flag goes up in management's head (even if they can't figure out why they shouldn't agree).

Good point, we have to see what they want. Concessions are NOT on the table. What is on the table, speaking hypothetically:

• More efficient utilization of resources - 88 seats in an 88 seat jet
• More efficient utilization of equipment and crews
• Reduction in operational redundancies
• Operation of an economic 100 seat jet, which they hold 36 options on
• Fixed flow through problem
• Better ability to compete with JetBlue, AAI and Southwest

The "synergies" with NWA were worth billions and ALPA got something for that. Lets say the "synergies" with Compass are worth a nickle. As long as it is not a concession, why not?

We should at least study it.

 

[Fly4hire]

Great job coming up with this one guys, leave the rest of the wholly owned regionals hanging....oh by the way nice line in the sand, the EMB 76 seat jet looks like a mainline aircraft and the EMB 190 does even more! So lets get those and their pilots on the main line list! But lets not say anything about the 900, which has the same seats and the Bombardier 1000 will have the same seats as the EMB 190! Oh I forgot, the Bombardier looks like a regional jet...

A couple subtle and not so subtle differences between XJ and CPZ:

-CPZ was created solely as a concession that offered employment to ~730 furloughed NWA pilots.

-The only reason there are any CPZ street pilots is because NWA recalled. We still have 100% rights to those seats.

-In exchange for the risk they took in working for CPZ, the street hire pilots enjoy 100% flow rights to DAL.

-Part of the agreement for forming CPZ, besides the flow, was the NWA MEC writing the contract and representing them (us).

Reference above, CPZ is unique and distinct from XJ, and even more so the other DCI's, and because of it's origin and relationship enjoys an advantage that XJ does not.

Echoing others comments this is a gradual process. Making a grab now for what is clearly out of reach threatens the whole process.

No one is excluding XJ or other DCI's - we are no where even remotely close to talking about integration even with CPZ other than wishful thinking.

We have not even resolved the first step yet of CPZ's representational structure.

 

[chjack]

The only people who keep propagating your "line in the sand" are yourselves. This has to do with the structure of DAL/NW and their relation to Compass. As one said, "You eat an elephant one bite at a time." Compass happens to fly E175s, do you really think there would be any different sentiment negative or positive toward this idea if instead Compass operated CRJ900's or RJ85's even for that matter.

It seems to be the same people who taunt us (Compass pilots) gleefully with "NWA pilots are coming to take your seats!", "You're going be to flowed down on so hard!", "I'm just glad I'm not in your shoes!"... and so forth seem to the ones who are most bitter that this movement is taking place.

We knowingly took a risk coming to Compass, and god-forbid anything good come out of that for us first and you later. It's just sour grapes in the shopping cart of the "me me me society".

exactly spaulding. they would rather see the whole career suffer, than to see another pilot group benefit, out of fear they may be left behind.

 

[flyboyike]

Define "remote"

Yes, I think it does. Some look down the road and realize that by 2012 the DC9's are getting pulled down resulting in a ~1,400 pilot surplus. Guess what else happens in 2012?

Does Delta want to negotiate in Section 6 with furloughed pilots claiming they are hostages to the process? Either way, this DC9 replacement issue has to be addressed. It would be MUCH better to have a plan and deal with it sooner, than have it force the 2012 negotiations to be about scope as pilots are headed out the door.

There are ways to make this work and the parts of the puzzle are coming together. 72 jets at mainline, plus attrition would solve the surplus nicely and give those who want to focus on other issues in 2012 a clear shot to do so.

I'd love to believe that people at DALPA (or at any other pilot group) truly have that much foresight, but I fear history shows that not to be the case.

It seems to me the one thing we learned from our "wise" management teams is the truly alarming inability to look much past our own noses and just trying to get through today in one piece. What happens tomorrow, let alone in 2012 doesn't seem to bother much of anyone.

 

[flyboyike]

it burns me to read this.....as an XJ pilot, I think great now that Delta took over Delta, there is one more main line carrier that I cannot get a job at unless I wait years and years for the phantom flow (historically NWA did not hire that many XJ pilots, and the flow....lets be real, flows sound good but mainline has to hire hundreds if not thousands in order for it to get down the list at XJ-so its a very dim light at the end of our long tunnel)

That's one of the reasons I've never considered flow-trough (real or imagined) as much of a motivator. These things tend to not materialize.

 

[RedRum]

I agree

Those seats never belonged to Compass pilots in the first place.

Resolutions should be based solely on recapturing ALL outsourced flying starting with the EMB175. If that includes bringing Compass pilots on to our Delta list then I see no problem. But no sacrifices should be made on behalf of the Delta pilot group. Our priority is to recapture our flying not to hand out seniority numbers.

I completely agree with you on this statement.

The problem I see with opening up this resolution to debate and then subsequently trying to negotiate is that we are giving away negotiating capital for a benefit we, as Delta pilots, already have.

If we want to open up debate on recapturing this flying, why don't we wait until contract openers in 2012? What is the rush? Why are we trying to protect the jobs of pilots who knew what they were getting in to in the first place.

I recommend staying with the staus quo until we open the contract up in 2012. Anything we want Delta to do for us is valuable negotiating capital and it should not be squandered.

 

[mynameisjim]

If we want to open up debate on recapturing this flying, why don't we wait until contract openers in 2012? What is the rush? Why are we trying to protect the jobs of pilots who knew what they were getting in to in the first place.

I recommend staying with the staus quo until we open the contract up in 2012. Anything we want Delta to do for us is valuable negotiating capital and it should not be squandered.

The trouble is, it doesn't seem like the Delta MEC is going to maintain the status quo until 2012. It is/was on the March 31st agenda to 'reevaluate' the Compass representation structure. I think that means removal.

It's my understanding that the resolution does many things. First, it shows the MEC that pilots are tired of outsourcing. Second, it shows Delta that pilots are tired of outsourcing. Third, it tells the MEC that pushing Compass out of the MEC is not a good idea right now (unless it is shown that is what the majority wants, at this point we don't know).

As a Compass pilot, my goal is not to be given a Delta seniority number. My goal is for my airplane to be a Delta plane flown by Delta and Delta pilots. I would like to be a Delta pilot someday, and if the Delta MEC keeps outsourcing jobs I never can be.

 

[xjhawk]

So I laughed reading all this, oh and by the way I do not taunt Compass pilots. i think rather highly of the ones i know. I am indifferent to the rest, as am I to the rest of pilot I do not know. I am not one to judge a pilot group, just individuals. But I do think if they get the flow, its a good start. But still think the line between mainline and wholly owned regional is crap-and I can have that opinion. I do ask, what ever happened to when mainline bought another airline, they were a part of that airline....not just a wholly owned. For those of you that had a good laugh at my posting after my few beers....keep looking, it might happen again....lol take it easy...and I wil say again....I hold no ill will towards Compass (or Pinnacle or Comair or whatever) we are all in this together.....

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

xjhawk, Compass already has a flow- they have the most fluid flow (up and down) of any airline pairing in existance.... all pilots are entitled to a certain % of newhire slots after they reach their 30 months. Many have and are just waiting on us to begin hiring again (any bets when that will actually happen??)


I agree with you in regards to wholly owneds... I'd much prefer all just be brought on board, with even more preference to total brand scope. The logistics of this will not be available until section 6 is opened up again, but we have to be prepared and ready to go.