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Im Ready, UNION AT FLEX

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You get to chose. Either the Flex pilots participate with their own pilot representatives or you can leave the decision up to Uncle. Didn't Uncle change the list after the pilots complained about the first list? How was that first list fair?
 
Ah yes! The non-answer answer. Seems to be a lot of that going around. How to we get to participate if it is already decided? Serious question here. Vote in the 1108 and merging seniority is done according to the "agency's" policy. What is the policy?
 
All I can find online is that absent an internal policy, McCaskill/Bond applies. Have you asked on the VUH if there has ever been a merger of two IBT represented carriers? That would be the place to go.
 
Isn't it pretty much the same folks on here as there? Same talking points over and over again. Flex crews might need to have representation when dealing with KR. Not saying we do or don't. Just wanting to be fully informed in my decision making process. From reading every post on here and every post on the VUH regarding this whole deal I am pretty sure that the same people are reading and posting on both. The 1108 leaders or their mouth pieces should be able to answer this question and save us all the research time. They want our money right?
 
They're so informed on the VUH that they think the FLOPs transferrees are already "upgrading" out of seniority order by going to the 75 because it's a Red Label aircraft (which it's not) and getting a new type rating (which it's not) after only being on the 45 for a few months. It took a couple of posts from someone at Flex to correct it. No one from the 1108 bothered.
 
V1 Rotate said:
They're so informed on the VUH that they think the FLOPs transferrees are already "upgrading" out of seniority order by going to the 75 because it's a Red Label aircraft (which it's not) and getting a new type rating (which it's not) after only being on the 45 for a few months. It took a couple of posts from someone at Flex to correct it. No one from the 1108 bothered.
Click to expand...

Here is the reality V1. New type or not, we may not know all the esoteric details of what is happening for the FLOPS transferees, but what we do know is that it probably isn't what all the Flex crews envisioned for their future... or is it?... You tell me? If you think it is right and fair, then say so... we are all waiting to hear what your take on this is.
 
V1 Rotate said:
It took a couple of posts from someone at Flex to correct it. No one from the 1108 bothered.
Click to expand...

Maybe "no one from the 1108" was told the truth prior to the Flex pilot posting. That's how the company operates. Tell one pilot group one thing, and the other pilot group another. But its only a small lie, so its ok.
 
V1 Rotate said:
They're so informed on the VUH that they think the FLOPs transferrees are already "upgrading" out of seniority order by going to the 75 because it's a Red Label aircraft (which it's not) and getting a new type rating (which it's not) after only being on the 45 for a few months. It took a couple of posts from someone at Flex to correct it. No one from the 1108 bothered.
Click to expand...

That is the reason why we all need to be on the VUH. It is the place where information can be disseminated to both groups. When management tells one group one thing, and the other group another, sharing info on the VUH is the only place to sort that out. Yammer is closed to FO, so it can't be done there.
 
993_Pilot said:
Here is the reality V1. New type or not, we may not know all the esoteric details of what is happening for the FLOPS transferees, but what we do know is that it probably isn't what all the Flex crews envisioned for their future... or is it?... You tell me? If you think it is right and fair, then say so... we are all waiting to hear what your take on this is.
Click to expand...

The 75 is going off as initially planned, as far as I can tell. Those that put in for it are beginning to fly it as a traditional 91k airplane. Nothing out of seniority as far as upgrades go.

GlorifiedCabbie said:
Maybe "no one from the 1108" was told the truth prior to the Flex pilot posting. That's how the company operates. Tell one pilot group one thing, and the other pilot group another. But its only a small lie, so its ok.
Click to expand...

When did the Company tell you that FLOPs transferrees were upgrading to a Red Label 75 and that they were getting a new type on it? By your logic, the gentleman who posted that on the VUH was told that by the Company at some point.

doh said:
That is the reason why we all need to be on the VUH. It is the place where information can be disseminated to both groups. When management tells one group one thing, and the other group another, sharing info on the VUH is the only place to sort that out. Yammer is closed to FO, so it can't be done there.
Click to expand...

True. However that's never going to happen. The VUH will always heavily outweigh Flex pilots and those who question the 1108. I've stated my peace on here several times that my card is in, I'm on board etc, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to sit idly by. I question both sides because it appears that each is trying to out lie the other.

So, what's the answer to the Teamsters merger policy? If it's to just default to MB, then just say that. I can live with that answer. But, in the extreme case that it's to staple Flexjet pilots to the bottom some how, then I'm out. I doubt that's the case but integration is the biggest concern. And if people aren't comfortable with what Teamsters has in mind then they may not join up, and we have the right to know beforehand. I only have to assume that by not answering this question that my best interests aren't being considered.
 
hank1292 said:
Ah yes! The non-answer answer. Seems to be a lot of that going around. How to we get to participate if it is already decided? Serious question here. Vote in the 1108 and merging seniority is done according to the "agency's" policy. What is the policy?
Click to expand...
There is no IBT policy, which causes it to default to M-B Law.
 
V1 Rotate said:
So, what's the answer to the Teamsters merger policy? If it's to just default to MB, then just say that. I can live with that answer. But, in the extreme case that it's to staple Flexjet pilots to the bottom some how, then I'm out. I doubt that's the case but integration is the biggest concern. And if people aren't comfortable with what Teamsters has in mind then they may not join up, and we have the right to know beforehand. I only have to assume that by not answering this question that my best interests aren't being considered.
Click to expand...

You must have missed the announcement the union put out in which, at least to my eyes, they spelled out exactly how seniority integration would work. And yes they said it will happen per MB.

If you did read that announcement and still had questions, why didn't you ask them on the VUH?

At the end of the day the 1108 is your fellow pilots and the only commodity they have to offer in this fight with Ricci is their credibility.

If you guys can't see that by now we are all screwed.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlorifiedCabbie
Maybe "no one from the 1108" was told the truth prior to the Flex pilot posting. That's how the company operates. Tell one pilot group one thing, and the other pilot group another. But its only a small lie, so its ok.

"When did the Company tell you that FLOPs transferrees were upgrading to a Red Label 75 and that they were getting a new type on it? By your logic, the gentleman who posted that on the VUH was told that by the Company at some point. "


V1, just a minor correction. It wasn't me that posted in the VUH that the 75 was a Red Label upgrade. The company didn't specify what type you would get after you were upgraded out of the 45. Just that you would not be in the 45 for long and the Red Label was the way your upgrade out of seniority would happen.
 
V1 Rotate said:
They're so informed on the VUH that they think the FLOPs transferrees are already "upgrading" out of seniority order by going to the 75 because it's a Red Label aircraft (which it's not) and getting a new type rating (which it's not) after only being on the 45 for a few months. It took a couple of posts from someone at Flex to correct it. No one from the 1108 bothered.
Click to expand...

V1 sounds like you might be twisting the post just a little bit to make yourself sound better.

Here is the post from the VUH:

"Also I hear that some of our very first transfers to Flex are now in school for the LR75. Wow, that didn't take very long. "I'm not sure but I thought" the LR75 is a "Red Label" program. I wonder how many Flex pilots were leap frogged for this Options pilot transfer, to go from the 45 to the 75 in less than a yrs time."

Wow! He posted on the VUH: "I'm not sure but I thought" and now they are SO mis-informed because he "Thought"

I remember specifically an email that came out around the beginning of the year introducing the "FlexJet Red Label"

"DATE: January 15, 2015
SUBJECT: Flexjet Red Label Program
FROM: Kenn Ricci, Chairman
TO: All Flight Options Pilots

FLEXJET RED LABEL PROGRAM INTRODUCTION​

"Aircraft in the Red Label Program

As stated above, the Red Label program is being used to market 5 year and younger aircraft. New aircraft being brought on line and being marketed in the Red Label program for 2015 include the Challenger 350, Lear 75 and a possible Lear 85 interim aircraft that is still under consideration."

Wow, in his own words stating the 75 would be a "Red Label". I wonder how those guys at Flops could be so mis-informed to actually think the 75 is a "Red Label"

Also where does it say anything about getting a new type?
 
V1 will fit right in with the new SFO program. If you don't like what you hear, just make something up. Just tell the pilots what they want to hear. Worry about the consequences later. Short term thinking. Nothing new to us.
 
You've got V1 all wrong. Now I've figured out who he is, his sincerity is not in question. He is doing his best to live in two realities. If our drive is unsuccessful, SFO land will be the reality. If we suceed, seniority will be reality. It's hard for me to put into words, because I'm not a writer, but I understand why some pilots are applying for these positions. If we fail, all upgrades will be interview. Not all pilots can walk away from this situation, so they are both sending in their cards, and living with the other foot in the alternate reality. V1, you will not get grief from me for this awkward situation. I feel off balance by this situation myself.
 
GlorifiedCabbie said:
V1 will fit right in with the new SFO program. If you don't like what you hear, just make something up. Just tell the pilots what they want to hear. Worry about the consequences later. Short term thinking. Nothing new to us.
Click to expand...

If I don't like what I hear, I question it. Not try to misrepresent it by smearing someone or something. Nice try, though.

doh said:
You've got V1 all wrong. Now I've figured out who he is, his sincerity is not in question. He is doing his best to live in two realities. If our drive is unsuccessful, SFO land will be the reality. If we suceed, seniority will be reality. It's hard for me to put into words, because I'm not a writer, but I understand why some pilots are applying for these positions. If we fail, all upgrades will be interview. Not all pilots can walk away from this situation, so they are both sending in their cards, and living with the other foot in the alternate reality. V1, you will not get grief from me for this awkward situation. I feel off balance by this situation myself.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I appreciate the vote of confidence in my integrity. Maybe I'll figure out who you are one day?!? Just to be clear though, I've not applied for anything that requires me to interview. The dedicated crew was something I looked at very closely but with the guidelines that came out last month or so, it doesn't look too appealing. This "situation" that we're in deserves some intense debate and some are going to get upset during the process, including myself at times, and that's fine if that's what it takes to get some answers about our careers. I don't answer to Ricci or the Teamsters. I answer to my family and myself. If I make Ricci mad or the 1108 in the process, then oh well. I'm an equal opportunity aggravater.
 
Not going to say we told you so..But basically KR wants to get rid of your schedules, take away your seniority system and cut everyones pay all the while he flies around in his Gulfstream to his house in CABO. SO i guess you have to ask your self.." DO I FEEL LUCKY"
"well do ya Flex guys" if your all ok with that continue on..If not send in your cards and let the battle for equality begin
 
File for single carrier with the NMB! Get this over with! Let every pilot at Onesky have a vote in our future. I find it ironic that there is a whole lot of name calling and intimidation by supporters of the 1108 pointed at the Flex pilots when the 1108 doesn't have the balls to fill the petition.
 
hank1292 said:
File for single carrier with the NMB! Get this over with! Let every pilot at Onesky have a vote in our future. I find it ironic that there is a whole lot of name calling and intimidation by supporters of the 1108 pointed at the Flex pilots when the 1108 doesn't have the balls to fill the petition.
Click to expand...

Either group can file, so why don't the Flex pilots file for single carrier?
All you need to do is get together as a group.
Simple, right?
 
hank1292 said:
File for single carrier with the NMB! Get this over with! Let every pilot at Onesky have a vote in our future. I find it ironic that there is a whole lot of name calling and intimidation by supporters of the 1108 pointed at the Flex pilots when the 1108 doesn't have the balls to fill the petition.
Click to expand...

I follow these threads pretty closely and I don't see what you're talking about. The only intimidation and disunity has been from the anti union camp. The FO pilots have been pretty supportive of the flex guys who see the light.

It's their integrity showing through because if it were less, they'd file and force Flex before they're all ready. But it's obvious their desire is to help the flex guys not hurt them.

The only one who's running out of time is management. They can't move forward with their plans with red label and the bonus until they know. KR only wants to pay that bonus as a last ditch effort to save the vote if he has to. He wants to be able to blame the vote if he says no (I.e. he'd love to pay bonus but now union drive is costing him).

If the committee is smart they won't do anything until may 2nd or later anyway.
 
Last edited:
flex*wife said:
I follow these threads pretty closely and I don't see what you're talking about. The only intimidation and disunity has been from the anti union camp. The FO pilots have been pretty supportive of the flex guys who see the light.

It's their integrity showing through because if it were less, they'd file and force Flex before they're all ready. But it's obvious their desire is to help the flex guys not hurt them.

The only one who's running out of time is management. They can't move forward with their plans with red label and the bonus until they know. KR only wants to pay that bonus as a last ditch effort to save the vote if he has to. He wants to be able to blame the vote if he says no (I.e. he'd love to pay bonus but now union drive is costing him).

If the committee is smart they won't do anything until may 2nd or later anyway.
Click to expand...

Prediction: He will claim "laboratory conditions", or "status quo", are preventing him from offering the bonus. This will be false, because these two terms are only applicable to the period of time during which cards have been presented to the NMB and vote occurs - so weeks of time no more. But I bet the claim will be made. We've seen it before.

Just curious, what's significant about May 2nd?
 
May 2nd is the day after the very last day that Kenn can pay Flexjet pilots their contractually obligated bonus they earned at the fiscal close of October 2014. The full amount up to May 1st can be interpreted as acceptable, anything less or after May 2nd is breach of contract.

Of course Uncle Kenn has already said he's not contractually obligated to pay it (despite its inclusion in the employment contract he forced all pilots to sign) and has still to date refused to give out the metrics, amounts, or anything regarding it except an express desire to not pay it. He said he just cant stomach the $4 million right now - despite it being Flexjet's most profitable year - and is averse to bonuses as a general rule. Grapevine also has it he has expressed concern over paying it as a lump sum if he pays it at all.

There was a rumor it would got out on April 1st but there was no bonus.

What kills me is the rumor there are pilots who still want to hold out for the bonus - give Kenn a chance to "make it right" -- before they decide if they will send in their union card.

It kills me for two reasons:

1.) The fact he has monkeyed around with it at all despite what pilots thought was an fairly reasonable contractual promise (in addition to the 401k and other things) should give them pause for thought about exactly what they are in store for with him as their fearless leader. He is willing to ignore the contract he wrote himself! What do they think will happen after this "protection" goes away in January 2016?

2.) The Red Label program these same pilots are all willing to scratch and claw their way over the backs of their senior list as a way of promoting themselves out of line is also has a significant bonus structure element to it. In the middle of him effing with them on bonuses, these same guys are signing up for a program based on bonuses.

This guy has given absolutely not a single indication that he is trustworthy or stable. And yet pilots are willing to gamble their careers on him because of what exactly? I'm honestly wondering what has got them so Ricci whipped. That must be some damn dazzling smile in person.

As for me - Ricci could tell me the sky was blue and I would literally have to go outside and check first.
 
flex*wife said:
This guy has given absolutely not a single indication that he is trustworthy or stable. And yet pilots are willing to gamble their careers on him because of what exactly? I'm honestly wondering what has got them so Ricci whipped. That must be some damn dazzling smile in person.

As for me - Ricci could tell me the sky was blue and I would literally have to go outside and check first.
Click to expand...

Hi flex*wife, You certainly figured Uncle out. He can lie right to your face and it doesn't bother him one bit. His ego is as big as his wallet.
 

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