If the tables were turned UPS/ASTAR(DHL Airways INC)

[penguin22]

I completely agree with DHL@nite

Remember the good old days when Fedex, UPS, DHL and Airborne Express all had scope clauses that tied our job to the freight? Don’t depend on them to work for you. UPS, you’re next. You want to keep your freight? Overseas anyway, you’ll have to compete with ACMI airlines. Fedex looks to be the last decent employer, but who knows how long before they’ll have to adapt.

We’re witnessing the future trend of air cargo. Like it or not, it’s ACMI. Go into HKG and look at the future. There’s a ramp full of A300-600s in DHL colors, along with yellow 727s, etc. All ACMI. (The A300s are Air Hong Kong. 727s, Tradewinds, I think) Not one DHL pilot anywhere

Open Skies? It’s already here. ABX is on the leading edge. Consider the ABX contract with ANA. That’d be like a Japanese airline coming to the States and flying freight just within North America.

BTW, that contract is unique in that it required ABX to be certified by JCAB (the Japanese FAA) to fly on behalf of ANA. Certification was like a year long process, and it’s tied to the ABX certificate. Makes it real tough for Joe to transfer that flying to another airline within ATSG. Scope for the new millennium!

 

[eatme]

FDX and UPS already have infrastructure and the political contacts to make things move overseas. Freight forwarding and logistics are part of their trade. If its all about the cheapest bidder to haul freight, maybe I would concede the point, but then you give up control over your product to move things in ratty aircraft by the cheapest means available. I still don't buy your argument UPS or FDX has something to worry about, especially given DPWN is not necessarily any larger than UPS or FDX by revenue; market volume yes but give it time, and you'll see FDX and UPS take on DPWN and cut them down to size just like in the states.

 

[penguin22]

FDX and UPS already have infrastructure and the political contacts to make things move overseas. Freight forwarding and logistics are part of their trade. If its all about the cheapest bidder to haul freight, maybe I would concede the point, but then you give up control over your product to move things in ratty aircraft by the cheapest means available. I still don't buy your argument UPS or FDX has something to worry about, especially given DPWN is not necessarily any larger than UPS or FDX by revenue; market volume yes but give it time, and you'll see FDX and UPS take on DPWN and cut them down to size just like in the states.

Time will tell. We'll know more when we see the details of the upcoming UPS/DHL agreement

 

[DHL@nite]

I still don't buy your argument UPS or FDX has something to worry about

Oh I don't think UPS has anything to worry about - I think they will benefit from a worldwide partnership with DPWN. Both companies will make tons of money utilizing each others relative strengths. The only ones that will suffer will be the IPA if your scope gets gutted like ours. But UPS will make lots of money.

This will be sold to the DOJ as a simple line-haul agreement, but I believe this partnership will develop much further after it is in place. After that, they (the two companies) can begin to manipulate what is "UPS" freight and what is "DHL" freight - it will be impossible to track what is what - and who is hauling it.

DP is an evil virus. If I was at UPS, I would be very concerned that UPS was getting in bed with them.

 

[Browntothebone]

I completely agree with DHL@nite

Remember the good old days when Fedex, UPS, DHL and Airborne Express all had scope clauses that tied our job to the freight? Don’t depend on them to work for you. UPS, you’re next. You want to keep your freight? Overseas anyway, you’ll have to compete with ACMI airlines. Fedex looks to be the last decent employer, but who knows how long before they’ll have to adapt.

We’re witnessing the future trend of air cargo. Like it or not, it’s ACMI. Go into HKG and look at the future. There’s a ramp full of A300-600s in DHL colors, along with yellow 727s, etc. All ACMI. (The A300s are Air Hong Kong. 727s, Tradewinds, I think) Not one DHL pilot anywhere

Open Skies? It’s already here. ABX is on the leading edge. Consider the ABX contract with ANA. That’d be like a Japanese airline coming to the States and flying freight just within North America.

BTW, that contract is unique in that it required ABX to be certified by JCAB (the Japanese FAA) to fly on behalf of ANA. Certification was like a year long process, and it’s tied to the ABX certificate. Makes it real tough for Joe to transfer that flying to another airline within ATSG. Scope for the new millennium!

My contacts at ABX tell me that Hete is working feverishly on getting your ACMI with ANA transferred from ABX Air to ATSG so that he can use any of the three airlines within the group to fly for ANA. You better rethink your scope for the new millennium. I wish you luck in fighting off Hete as he tries and play you three against each other.

 

[Browntothebone]

Oh I don't think UPS has anything to worry about - I think they will benefit from a worldwide partnership with DPWN. Both companies will make tons of money utilizing each others relative strengths. The only ones that will suffer will be the IPA if your scope gets gutted like ours. But UPS will make lots of money.

This will be sold to the DOJ as a simple line-haul agreement, but I believe this partnership will develop much further after it is in place. After that, they (the two companies) can begin to manipulate what is "UPS" freight and what is "DHL" freight - it will be impossible to track what is what - and who is hauling it.

DP is an evil virus. If I was at UPS, I would be very concerned that UPS was getting in bed with them.

You guys are getting this 180 degrees wrong. You are right that UPS and DHL will probably expand their relationship, but it will be DHL getting out of the air transportation part and giving it to UPS. UPS has a larger and much more fuel efficient fleet than the hodgepodge of DHL contractors and DHL owned airlines worldwide.

 

[DHL@nite]

Like I said, Good Luck.

Hopefully you won't have to see some other airline take your freight and your job.

 

[Browntothebone]

Like I said, Good Luck.

Hopefully you won't have to see some other airline take your freight and your job.

Seriously, thank you. I'm more optimistic than most of you here about how this new relationship with DHL will work out. UPS' control freak corporate culture is the best thing going for us.

Thanks again for your support and I harbor no ill will toward the ABX or Astar pilot groups. Sometimes these threads seem like they evolve into a pissing match but I do seriously wish you guys all the best.

 

[DHL@nite]

Sometimes these threads seem like they evolve into a pissing match but I do seriously wish you guys all the best.

You are correct there. People say things on webboards that they would never say face to face. When reading these posts, please remember that guys feel extremely betrayed by DHL. We are going to be unemployed at an absolutely horrible time in the market - many homes will be lost - so emotion and frustration are running very high. So those emotions are all stirred in with everything else.

 

[penguin22]

My contacts at ABX tell me that Hete is working feverishly on getting your ACMI with ANA transferred from ABX Air to ATSG

ATSG doesn't even have a certificate. Nice try.

 

[AV80R]

You guys are getting this 180 degrees wrong. You are right that UPS and DHL will probably expand their relationship, but it will be DHL getting out of the air transportation part and giving it to UPS. UPS has a larger and much more fuel efficient fleet than the hodgepodge of DHL contractors and DHL owned airlines worldwide.

BTTB - I hope you're right but personally I wouldn't be surprised if 5-10 years down the road we (UPS) fly domestically, DHL flies in Europe, Air Hong Kong, etc fly in Asia and then Great Wall, Yangtze River, etc fly in between the markets... I know that UPS likes control but I think they like the profits even more...
I feel very sad for the Abx and Astar employees and I do worry about our future...

(PS. for those confused » av80r = UPS, av8or = Astar)

 

[penguin22]

Hey BTB. Got a question for you. Got a feeling you KNOW the answer

Is UPS a client of Ford & Harrison?

 

[Jetglow]

You guys are getting this 180 degrees wrong. You are right that UPS and DHL will probably expand their relationship, but it will be DHL getting out of the air transportation part and giving it to UPS. UPS has a larger and much more fuel efficient fleet than the hodgepodge of DHL contractors and DHL owned airlines worldwide.

God...are you really that stupid? hmmmm lets see pay more money than your losses to let the competitor take your business...or get in bed with a global giant (not UPS or Fed Ex by the way...) and take down one of the two remaining highest paid pilots in the world (ABX and Astar were 3 & 4 by the way...)

You are possibly the most gullable koolaid drinker in the pilot profession....

I am not your enemy nor are you mine...I am telling you the truth of your future....

I hope you do great...I wish you no Ill will...I hope UPS dominates the world...but I also hope you do not let them screw you....you are 1 of 2 left now....and you are a goal for some a-hole to make an example of...

 

[DC8CRIVER]

ABX / ATSG (or whatever it is that we're calling ourselves today) actually was on the receiving end of an Astar/alpa lawsuit because of scope.

Heavy,

Once again, the Astar/ALPA suit was against DHL - NOT ABX.

If you have not yet learned that our shared enemy is DHL, you must not be a pilot anywhere around here.

DC8

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Teamsters and 1224 have a bigger presence on the Hill over this issue than ALPA

Penguin,

So what are you and 1224 doing on the Hill with your presence? Anything?

Our union has spoken loudly and clearly and often about this deal being a bad one. For all of us. Haven't heard anything at all from 1224.

Any statements coming?
Any press releases coming?
Any meetings with politicians coming?
Any grievances coming?
Any lawsuits coming?

Just wondering. Seems like they think this DHL/UPS deal is not worth fighting.

DC8