If the tables were turned UPS/ASTAR(DHL Airways INC)

[flyinboxes]

Teamsters and 1224 have a bigger presence on the Hill over this issue than ALPA

You guys trip me out, so far I have seen absolutely NOTHING, that's right, ZIP from the 1224. The teamsters are selling you down the river...UPS is majority teamsters. Please tell me one thing, just one thing you have done in the face of adversity over the past few years to secure a contract, protect your jobs, etc. We have marched in Plantation on DHL's doorsteps while you plotted our demise. We marched in Wilmington while you plotted our demise. We marched in NY and DC. We stood together, we fought for a fair and equitable contract to secure our future and our flying. Now we are fighting for our jobs because we were deceived, fraudulently negotiated with. We will continue to fight until the end. We will watch as you take concessions in a futile attempt to save what's left of your airline, only to once again shake our heads and thank the 1224 for making the challenge impossible.

 

[flyinboxes]

According to today's edition of the Wilmington News Journal, Astar is "prepared to present a proposal to DHL that would be competitive with the proposed UPS arrangement." Since DHL stated that one of the reasons for doing the deal with UPS what that DHL's costs in the US were too high and that doing the deal with UPS would lower DHL's cost, one must conclude that this new proposal by Astar must be concessionary.
Do any of you Astar guys have details on what it might be?

Yes, we are going to fly it for 10 percent less than you make.

 

[FreightBumper]

You guys trip me out, so far I have seen absolutely NOTHING, that's right, ZIP from the 1224. The teamsters are selling you down the river...UPS is majority teamsters. Please tell me one thing, just one thing you have done in the face of adversity over the past few years to secure a contract, protect your jobs, etc. We have marched in Plantation on DHL's doorsteps while you plotted our demise. We marched in Wilmington while you plotted our demise. We marched in NY and DC. We stood together, we fought for a fair and equitable contract to secure our future and our flying. Now we are fighting for our jobs because we were deceived, fraudulently negotiated with. We will continue to fight until the end. We will watch as you take concessions in a futile attempt to save what's left of your airline, only to once again shake our heads and thank the 1224 for making the challenge impossible.

And what did Dasberg say? I knew nothing(aka sgt schultz: hogan's heroes.) August 09

 

[FreightBumper]

You guys trip me out, so far I have seen absolutely NOTHING, that's right, ZIP from the 1224. The teamsters are selling you down the river...UPS is majority teamsters. Please tell me one thing, just one thing you have done in the face of adversity over the past few years to secure a contract, protect your jobs, etc. We have marched in Plantation on DHL's doorsteps while you plotted our demise. We marched in Wilmington while you plotted our demise. We marched in NY and DC. We stood together, we fought for a fair and equitable contract to secure our future and our flying. Now we are fighting for our jobs because we were deceived, fraudulently negotiated with. We will continue to fight until the end. We will watch as you take concessions in a futile attempt to save what's left of your airline, only to once again shake our heads and thank the 1224 for making the challenge impossible.

We aren't four years into the fight for a contract as you were. We have some light at the end of the tunnel. I'll grant you it might be a freight train, but we are both acmi carriers and we realize it. You don't. Your lawsuit is your only recourse and I genuinely hope it works for you. We just feel we can't trust anything dhl says or does. You beat them in court and they will just declare bankruptcy and ups will own them anyway. Life after dhl isn't going to be at our or your present pay rates. Sincere best of luck to all Astar folks. I have never met one that wasn't a decent type. You and rotor and wing on this board are the exceptions. You have gloated for awhile about our apparent demise and now it's your turn.

 

[DHL@nite]

Freightbumper,

I don't know you, but you seem like a good guy. I think it was always thought by many that our two airlines would eventually be combined. I think it certainly would have been best long term.

Interesting how your scope with Airborne Express and our scope with DHL all managed to get derailed by airline management (DHL/DP). Management wins, pilots loose.

All pilots groups (including UPS) should look at our two pilot groups of examples as what very well could happen to them. Although I'm sure most groups assume their Scope is invincible.

Maybe someday, pilot groups will actually support each other on these issues - we obviously can't rely on scope clauses, lawyers, or airline management.

Best of luck to all ABX and Astar pilots. Neither group deserved this.

 

[Browntothebone]

Freightbumper,

I don't know you, but you seem like a good guy. I think it was always thought by many that our two airlines would eventually be combined. I think it certainly would have been best long term.

Interesting how your scope with Airborne Express and our scope with DHL all managed to get derailed by airline management (DHL/DP). Management wins, pilots loose.

All pilots groups (including UPS) should look at our two pilot groups of examples as what very well could happen to them. Although I'm sure most groups assume their Scope is invincible.

Maybe someday, pilot groups will actually support each other on these issues - we obviously can't rely on scope clauses, lawyers, or airline management.

Best of luck to all ABX and Astar pilots. Neither group deserved this.

What would you like for the UPS pilot group to do about it? Refuse to fly any domestic flight after the deal is signed because it might have DHL volume on board? Seriously, what do you expect US to do?

 

[DHL@nite]

I don't know. What would you expect us to do if UPS approached Astar about carrying UPS freight? (provided they found a loophole in your scope)

In all honesty, it would probably be best if the union leaderships were to sit down and decide what type of "support" would/could be offered and what would be most realistic/beneficial. Ultimately, we (pilots) are all in this together.

Remember, even though our previous contract scope clause language got gutted by DHL's spin-off of the airline (we should have protected ourselves better then) - even our CURRENT agreement (being 49% owned by DHL) has job security and growth provisions (that were agreed to by DHL as well as Astar) that will be violated by this deal.

Webboard talk probably wouldn't do anything but cause posturing, head butting, and the like - all to the benefit and delight of UPS and DHL management.

 

[AV8OR]

What would you like for the UPS pilot group to do about it? Refuse to fly any domestic flight after the deal is signed because it might have DHL volume on board? Seriously, what do you expect US to do?

BTB,

I can't speak for others on the issue, but as for me, I really don't expect yall to be able to do much of anything. I guess some guys think yall shouldn't fly the freight, but since it's not struck work, I'm not sure that really works. Personally, since apparently there's no real love from UPS management in listening to UPS pilots helping a brotha' out, who's out of work due to pretty much ANY deal with UPS, I really don't think there's much of anything that yall can do. So, I in know way blame the pilots of UPS.

So, for the record, as for me, the fight continues against two entities....DHL/DPWN and UPS, via litigation and info campaigning. At the same time is my app ready for the window to open? You bet. Am I hangin my hat on any of this. Absolutely not. But encouraging me to simply update my resume and send out apps (like that's some sort of new concept) instead of, rather in addition to, fighting this thing legally....well it's just a tad insulting for those of us over here.

I fully expect one night to show up at Building 11 with Hans Hickler and Appel manning the door, where they will say, "Good news boys! We've finally worked it out with UPS for yall to go fly for them. Now if you will simply disrobe out of that AStar uniform, turn in your ID's, and proceed through the shower area, on the other side of that door you will find your new Brown uniform and UPS badge! Not to worry!" And all will be well.....till the cyanide cannisters begin to drop.

 

[DHL@nite]

I guess some guys think yall shouldn't fly the freight, but since it's not struck work, I'm not sure that really works.

AV8OR,

Cessation of service (or the threat to) is only one type of support. There are other types of support that could be of more benefit to us at this time - but probably shouldn't be discussed on a public board.

I really do think we would offer our full support to UPS pilots if/when the tables are turned. I'm not "blaming" anyone for anything (other than DP) and I'm not painting the UPS pilots as "bad guys" or anything - just seeking support.

I do think refraining from calling DHL pilots "just contractors" would be the classy thing to do, however.

I've got friends at UPS, ABX, and Astar. Crap, I've got friends at UPS that used to be at Astar. Nobody wants to see anyone out of work. But that is where some cooperation and throwing up some potential "hurdles" could be of benefit.

But, yes, get your resume ready. Because in this case, David is very small, Goliath is very large, and there doesn't seem to be very many stones around.

 

[coho92]

I don't know. What would you expect us to do if UPS approached Astar about carrying UPS freight? (provided they found a loophole in your scope)

In all honesty, it would probably be best if the union leaderships were to sit down and decide what type of "support" would/could be offered and what would be most realistic/beneficial. Ultimately, we (pilots) are all in this together.

Remember, even though our previous contract scope clause language got gutted by DHL's spin-off of the airline (we should have protected ourselves better then) - even our CURRENT agreement (being 49% owned by DHL) has job security and growth provisions (that were agreed to by DHL as well as Astar) that will be violated by this deal.

Webboard talk probably wouldn't do anything but cause posturing, head butting, and the like - all to the benefit and delight of UPS and DHL management.

we already have it, its called star, mng, whatever river express, etc. The smart guys I know have left this industry because the next job killer will be the new 767 unmanned freighter

 

[Jetglow]

What would you like for the UPS pilot group to do about it? Refuse to fly any domestic flight after the deal is signed because it might have DHL volume on board? Seriously, what do you expect US to do?

I expect your co workers to be smarter than you....

This short term gain will destroy you...as it has already destroyed us. You are like a deer in the headlights.

You are basically justifying your own demise...

 

[flyinboxes]

We aren't four years into the fight for a contract as you were. We have some light at the end of the tunnel. I'll grant you it might be a freight train, but we are both acmi carriers and we realize it. You don't. Your lawsuit is your only recourse and I genuinely hope it works for you. We just feel we can't trust anything dhl says or does. You beat them in court and they will just declare bankruptcy and ups will own them anyway. Life after dhl isn't going to be at our or your present pay rates. Sincere best of luck to all Astar folks. I have never met one that wasn't a decent type. You and rotor and wing on this board are the exceptions. You have gloated for awhile about our apparent demise and now it's your turn.

I gloated about your demise? Hmmm...ok..whatever.

What lawsuit?

My question still didn't get answered.

 

[DHL@nite]

Rest assured, the line between "DHL" freight and "UPS" freight will be blurred in the future. Particularly in international markets where DHL is the dominant force. The "code share" will be expanded upon - UPS contracts overseas will suddenly become "DHL" contracts...to which the IPA will have no claim. A mish-mash of low-cost carriers hauling what will now be called "DHL" freight will be making runs around the world where UPS suddenly, mysteriously doesn't seem to have as much business anymore.

That Polar aircraft that arrives in SDF from Europe will be full of "DHL" freight - suddenly there won't be much "UPS" freight coming over anymore.

If UPS pilots were ever to strike...many UPS contracts would convienently become "DHL" contracts overnight (with UPS and DHL shaking hands behind the scenes) - to which the IPA would have no claim. (the IPA will have no way to tie DHL to their scope clause - for the same legal reasons that Astar pilots couldn't). UPS will tell the pilots, we can't help it if other airlines fly "DHL" freight. Pilots at other carriers will justify flying the freight by saying, "DHL is just shifting from one CONTRACTOR to another..."

I know...I know...that could NEVER, EVER happen. ; )

Remember, we had plenty of high paid ALPA lawyers telling us we had the "best scope clause" in the industry - and DHL made minced meat of it. One of those lawyers wrote much of the language in the current IPA/UPS contract, in fact.

I know getting that DHL freight may mean some upgrades, etc. in the short term...but be careful what you wish for.

 

[eatme]

If DHL Worldwide has the same $hitty service as DHL North America, then UPS has nothing to worry about. I'm not buying your theory that UPS will be de facto swallowed up by DHL Worldwide. Its all about control of the product and enhancing their reputation and revenue.
Does DHL still use contract flying overseas; because I see their contractors in Asia.

 

[DHL@nite]

I don't think DHL will "Swallow up" UPS. But I think this "partnership" will be multi-faceted and far more complex that just a line-haul agreement in the states alone. I think there will be a quid pro quo overseas. (DHL hauling UPS freight) I think the UPS brand will be kept and used in the states since that is what is more well known here. The DHL brand will be used...well...everywhere else in the world. The partnership will take advantages of each others strengths to build the largest global network there is. And if they (both companies) can use this partnership to exploit your scope clause and get around it, they certainly will.

Remember, both ABX and DHL Airways (Astar) pilots had "solid" scope clauses with American companies until DP came into the picture - now look where we are...you are going to be hauling our freight.

I'm sure you think it could never happen to you. That's what I thought too.

Good luck.

 

[penguin22]

I completely agree with DHL@nite

Remember the good old days when Fedex, UPS, DHL and Airborne Express all had scope clauses that tied our job to the freight? Don’t depend on them to work for you. UPS, you’re next. You want to keep your freight? Overseas anyway, you’ll have to compete with ACMI airlines. Fedex looks to be the last decent employer, but who knows how long before they’ll have to adapt.

We’re witnessing the future trend of air cargo. Like it or not, it’s ACMI. Go into HKG and look at the future. There’s a ramp full of A300-600s in DHL colors, along with yellow 727s, etc. All ACMI. (The A300s are Air Hong Kong. 727s, Tradewinds, I think) Not one DHL pilot anywhere

Open Skies? It’s already here. ABX is on the leading edge. Consider the ABX contract with ANA. That’d be like a Japanese airline coming to the States and flying freight just within North America.

BTW, that contract is unique in that it required ABX to be certified by JCAB (the Japanese FAA) to fly on behalf of ANA. Certification was like a year long process, and it’s tied to the ABX certificate. Makes it real tough for Joe to transfer that flying to another airline within ATSG. Scope for the new millennium!

 

[eatme]

FDX and UPS already have infrastructure and the political contacts to make things move overseas. Freight forwarding and logistics are part of their trade. If its all about the cheapest bidder to haul freight, maybe I would concede the point, but then you give up control over your product to move things in ratty aircraft by the cheapest means available. I still don't buy your argument UPS or FDX has something to worry about, especially given DPWN is not necessarily any larger than UPS or FDX by revenue; market volume yes but give it time, and you'll see FDX and UPS take on DPWN and cut them down to size just like in the states.

 

[penguin22]

FDX and UPS already have infrastructure and the political contacts to make things move overseas. Freight forwarding and logistics are part of their trade. If its all about the cheapest bidder to haul freight, maybe I would concede the point, but then you give up control over your product to move things in ratty aircraft by the cheapest means available. I still don't buy your argument UPS or FDX has something to worry about, especially given DPWN is not necessarily any larger than UPS or FDX by revenue; market volume yes but give it time, and you'll see FDX and UPS take on DPWN and cut them down to size just like in the states.

Time will tell. We'll know more when we see the details of the upcoming UPS/DHL agreement

 

[DHL@nite]

I still don't buy your argument UPS or FDX has something to worry about

Oh I don't think UPS has anything to worry about - I think they will benefit from a worldwide partnership with DPWN. Both companies will make tons of money utilizing each others relative strengths. The only ones that will suffer will be the IPA if your scope gets gutted like ours. But UPS will make lots of money.

This will be sold to the DOJ as a simple line-haul agreement, but I believe this partnership will develop much further after it is in place. After that, they (the two companies) can begin to manipulate what is "UPS" freight and what is "DHL" freight - it will be impossible to track what is what - and who is hauling it.

DP is an evil virus. If I was at UPS, I would be very concerned that UPS was getting in bed with them.

 

[Browntothebone]

I completely agree with DHL@nite

Remember the good old days when Fedex, UPS, DHL and Airborne Express all had scope clauses that tied our job to the freight? Don’t depend on them to work for you. UPS, you’re next. You want to keep your freight? Overseas anyway, you’ll have to compete with ACMI airlines. Fedex looks to be the last decent employer, but who knows how long before they’ll have to adapt.

We’re witnessing the future trend of air cargo. Like it or not, it’s ACMI. Go into HKG and look at the future. There’s a ramp full of A300-600s in DHL colors, along with yellow 727s, etc. All ACMI. (The A300s are Air Hong Kong. 727s, Tradewinds, I think) Not one DHL pilot anywhere

Open Skies? It’s already here. ABX is on the leading edge. Consider the ABX contract with ANA. That’d be like a Japanese airline coming to the States and flying freight just within North America.

BTW, that contract is unique in that it required ABX to be certified by JCAB (the Japanese FAA) to fly on behalf of ANA. Certification was like a year long process, and it’s tied to the ABX certificate. Makes it real tough for Joe to transfer that flying to another airline within ATSG. Scope for the new millennium!

My contacts at ABX tell me that Hete is working feverishly on getting your ACMI with ANA transferred from ABX Air to ATSG so that he can use any of the three airlines within the group to fly for ANA. You better rethink your scope for the new millennium. I wish you luck in fighting off Hete as he tries and play you three against each other.