If the tables were turned UPS/ASTAR(DHL Airways INC)

[Browntothebone]

Oh I don't think UPS has anything to worry about - I think they will benefit from a worldwide partnership with DPWN. Both companies will make tons of money utilizing each others relative strengths. The only ones that will suffer will be the IPA if your scope gets gutted like ours. But UPS will make lots of money.

This will be sold to the DOJ as a simple line-haul agreement, but I believe this partnership will develop much further after it is in place. After that, they (the two companies) can begin to manipulate what is "UPS" freight and what is "DHL" freight - it will be impossible to track what is what - and who is hauling it.

DP is an evil virus. If I was at UPS, I would be very concerned that UPS was getting in bed with them.

You guys are getting this 180 degrees wrong. You are right that UPS and DHL will probably expand their relationship, but it will be DHL getting out of the air transportation part and giving it to UPS. UPS has a larger and much more fuel efficient fleet than the hodgepodge of DHL contractors and DHL owned airlines worldwide.

 

[DHL@nite]

Like I said, Good Luck.

Hopefully you won't have to see some other airline take your freight and your job.

 

[Browntothebone]

Like I said, Good Luck.

Hopefully you won't have to see some other airline take your freight and your job.

Seriously, thank you. I'm more optimistic than most of you here about how this new relationship with DHL will work out. UPS' control freak corporate culture is the best thing going for us.

Thanks again for your support and I harbor no ill will toward the ABX or Astar pilot groups. Sometimes these threads seem like they evolve into a pissing match but I do seriously wish you guys all the best.

 

[DHL@nite]

Sometimes these threads seem like they evolve into a pissing match but I do seriously wish you guys all the best.

You are correct there. People say things on webboards that they would never say face to face. When reading these posts, please remember that guys feel extremely betrayed by DHL. We are going to be unemployed at an absolutely horrible time in the market - many homes will be lost - so emotion and frustration are running very high. So those emotions are all stirred in with everything else.

 

[penguin22]

My contacts at ABX tell me that Hete is working feverishly on getting your ACMI with ANA transferred from ABX Air to ATSG

ATSG doesn't even have a certificate. Nice try.

 

[AV80R]

You guys are getting this 180 degrees wrong. You are right that UPS and DHL will probably expand their relationship, but it will be DHL getting out of the air transportation part and giving it to UPS. UPS has a larger and much more fuel efficient fleet than the hodgepodge of DHL contractors and DHL owned airlines worldwide.

BTTB - I hope you're right but personally I wouldn't be surprised if 5-10 years down the road we (UPS) fly domestically, DHL flies in Europe, Air Hong Kong, etc fly in Asia and then Great Wall, Yangtze River, etc fly in between the markets... I know that UPS likes control but I think they like the profits even more...
I feel very sad for the Abx and Astar employees and I do worry about our future...

(PS. for those confused » av80r = UPS, av8or = Astar)

 

[penguin22]

Hey BTB. Got a question for you. Got a feeling you KNOW the answer

Is UPS a client of Ford & Harrison?

 

[Jetglow]

You guys are getting this 180 degrees wrong. You are right that UPS and DHL will probably expand their relationship, but it will be DHL getting out of the air transportation part and giving it to UPS. UPS has a larger and much more fuel efficient fleet than the hodgepodge of DHL contractors and DHL owned airlines worldwide.

God...are you really that stupid? hmmmm lets see pay more money than your losses to let the competitor take your business...or get in bed with a global giant (not UPS or Fed Ex by the way...) and take down one of the two remaining highest paid pilots in the world (ABX and Astar were 3 & 4 by the way...)

You are possibly the most gullable koolaid drinker in the pilot profession....

I am not your enemy nor are you mine...I am telling you the truth of your future....

I hope you do great...I wish you no Ill will...I hope UPS dominates the world...but I also hope you do not let them screw you....you are 1 of 2 left now....and you are a goal for some a-hole to make an example of...

 

[DC8CRIVER]

ABX / ATSG (or whatever it is that we're calling ourselves today) actually was on the receiving end of an Astar/alpa lawsuit because of scope.

Heavy,

Once again, the Astar/ALPA suit was against DHL - NOT ABX.

If you have not yet learned that our shared enemy is DHL, you must not be a pilot anywhere around here.

DC8

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Teamsters and 1224 have a bigger presence on the Hill over this issue than ALPA

Penguin,

So what are you and 1224 doing on the Hill with your presence? Anything?

Our union has spoken loudly and clearly and often about this deal being a bad one. For all of us. Haven't heard anything at all from 1224.

Any statements coming?
Any press releases coming?
Any meetings with politicians coming?
Any grievances coming?
Any lawsuits coming?

Just wondering. Seems like they think this DHL/UPS deal is not worth fighting.

DC8

 

[DC8CRIVER]

According to today's edition of the Wilmington News Journal, Astar is "prepared to present a proposal to DHL that would be competitive with the proposed UPS arrangement." Since DHL stated that one of the reasons for doing the deal with UPS what that DHL's costs in the US were too high and that doing the deal with UPS would lower DHL's cost, one must conclude that this new proposal by Astar must be concessionary.
Do any of you Astar guys have details on what it might be?

Brown,

There have been no talks, no negotiations, no hints, no nothing regarding concessions from Astar pilots. Rumor is that the ABX guys just turned down a 60+% paycut proposal from Hete.

Maybe Dasberg is prepared to take something less that the 7% profit that DHL pays him every year (actually, I guess, it's more like 3.5% since DHL bought 49% of us). That might be some cost cutting that would make a difference. Or how about getting some friggin planes that don't guzzle gas like a drunken sailor. That might be some cost cutting that would make a difference, too.

We just signed a contract that DHL was party to. They not only agreed to our pay scales, but they promised growth as well. Our pay rates aren't the problem.

DC8

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Seriously, thank you. I'm more optimistic than most of you here about how this new relationship with DHL will work out. UPS' control freak corporate culture is the best thing going for us.

Actually, BTB, it's the WORST thing going for you.

Look at it from managements side. They're locked into a sole-services-provider contract with a labor group that's already threatened to strike on several occasions. That group has also offered their support to the drivers whenever they've threatened to go on strike. Either way, they have the power to cripple the company unless they get what they want.

Where is the "control" in that?

Only by spreading the risk among many operators does UPS really gain total "control" over it's entire operation.

 

[DHL@nite]

Wait until that first 3rd party contractor shows up on the SDF ramp. UPS management will assure the UPS pilots by telling them, "Oh...don't worry about that..it is all just DHL freight." You guys will discover that it is impossible to tie DHL exclusively to your scope (just like we did - you can't tie scope to a 'customer'.). As the UPS/DHL partnership develops, the 2 companies will play the corporate shell game to undermine your scope. If you guys ever start to threaten a strike, the partnership will get very close, very fast. (Rest assured BOTH DHL and UPS are talking right now about how to protect BOTH of them in the event you guys strike - they are not about to put BOTH companies at the mercy of the IPA) Then you will be watching someone else fly "your" freight - and I can assure you, it is not fun.

Just my opinion of what will happen based on what happened to DHL Airways and Airborne. But I know...it could NEVER happen to you.

 

[DHL@nite]

I should also say that I really, truly do NOT want to see the above scenario happen - I do not have ill will towards the UPS pilots. Crap, UPS is about the only good place left to work. The pilot "profession" has really taken a beating, and we've all kinda let it happen to us. The pax airlines have really played the shell game using the regionals and have clobbered the pax side of the career option. Now I see the cargo companies headed down the same path.

 

[eatme]

Wait until that first 3rd party contractor shows up on the SDF ramp. UPS management will assure the UPS pilots by telling them, "Oh...don't worry about that..it is all just DHL freight." You guys will discover that it is impossible to tie DHL exclusively to your scope (just like we did - you can't tie scope to a 'customer'.). As the UPS/DHL partnership develops, the 2 companies will play the corporate shell game to undermine your scope. If you guys ever start to threaten a strike, the partnership will get very close, very fast. (Rest assured BOTH DHL and UPS are talking right now about how to protect BOTH of them in the event you guys strike - they are not about to put BOTH companies at the mercy of the IPA) Then you will be watching someone else fly "your" freight - and I can assure you, it is not fun.

Just my opinion of what will happen based on what happened to DHL Airways and Airborne. But I know...it could NEVER happen to you.

Why would UPS have spent multi-billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to get where they are now, only to fritter it away with crappy 3rd party contractors hauling and mixing their freight? If they wanted to do this wouldn't they have done so already?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

According to today's edition of the Wilmington News Journal, Astar is "prepared to present a proposal to DHL that would be competitive with the proposed UPS arrangement." Since DHL stated that one of the reasons for doing the deal with UPS what that DHL's costs in the US were too high and that doing the deal with UPS would lower DHL's cost, one must conclude that this new proposal by Astar must be concessionary.
Do any of you Astar guys have details on what it might be?

This is not about cost, and never has been. Rather, this is about forging a working arrangement with UPS which will allow them to use DHL, through their (DHL'S) contractors, to distribute their product in foreign markets.

It also opens the door to UPS using contractors to fly what would otherwise be UPS' freight in the event of a strike.

As you yourself pointed out in another post, the customers perception of "service" is created by person making the delivery. He is in essence, the only person who "touches" both the product and the customer. That's why UPS places such a premium on hiring the right people for that job, and pays them so well. The rest of us are, indeed, "peons."

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Why would UPS have spent multi-billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to get where they are now, only to fritter it away with crappy 3rd party contractors hauling and mixing their freight? If they wanted to do this wouldn't they have done so already?

Why would they spend billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to have it held hostage by Bob Miller and the IPA?

Not all contractors are "crappy" by any means. Northwest has been contracting to DHL for some time now, and they're certainly not "crappy." In contracting for anything, whether it's for somebody to hang drywall or a 747 to fly to ANK, you get what you pay for.

UPS will soon be flying DHL freight. Will that make you guys a "crappy 3rd party contractor" to DHL's core business?

 

[eatme]

Why would they spend billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to have it held hostage by Bob Miller and the IPA?

Not all contractors are "crappy" by any means. Northwest has been contracting to DHL for some time now, and they're certainly not "crappy." In contracting for anything, whether it's for somebody to hang drywall or a 747 to fly to ANK, you get what you pay for.

UPS will soon be flying DHL freight. Will that make you guys a "crappy 3rd party contractor" to DHL's core business?

When you say Northwest, you mean handfuls of obsolete 747s. Lets talk P/L of Northwest, yeah they have been in the $hitter for the last several years.
I don't believe UPS will be beholden to anyone, if things go sour with this yet to be signed DHL contract, there will be escape clauses that can be invoked by either side. Maybe UPS while doing due diligence on this deal will realize that its just a turd and walk away from it, who knows.

 

[Jetglow]

I want to point out that the 4 highest paid pilot groups in the world are UPS, Fed Ex, ABX & Astar.....

DHL & UPS just eliminated 2 of the 4.....

I am not pointing an angry finger at UPS pilots.....I am warning you guys to get tight contractual language to protect yourselves because you are next. I want you guys to prosper...none is this your fault...it is the greed of DHL. They have shot holes in every contract from half a world away. DHL is in your back yard now...and dont think for 1 minute that UPS would not like to lower thier costs by lowering your pay and strength by whatever means available.....


I am warning you with the truth....there is nothing better than that.

 

[shooter]

This is not about cost, and never has been. Rather, this is about forging a working arrangement with UPS which will allow them to use DHL, through their (DHL'S) contractors, to distribute their product in foreign markets.

It also opens the door to UPS using contractors to fly what would otherwise be UPS' freight in the event of a strike.

As you yourself pointed out in another post, the customers perception of "service" is created by person making the delivery. He is in essence, the only person who "touches" both the product and the customer. That's why UPS places such a premium on hiring the right people for that job, and pays them so well. The rest of us are, indeed, "peons."

UPS is a trucking company that has airplanes, where FedEx is an airline that has trucks. If they are plotting to prevent future labor problems, can they use the DHL/USPS trucks to deliver UPS goods?