If the tables were turned UPS/ASTAR(DHL Airways INC)

[HD2003]

Would UPS pilots just lay down and let ASTAR pilots FLY UPS freight?

ASTAR pilots are still fighting a battle over scope. DHL executives agreed that ALL DHL freight would be flown by DHL Airways (now Astar) pilots in North America. DHL executives have used every legal loop hole they can. We are the original DHL Airways and that is our freight. Its time union pilots acted like union pilots.

 

[rotor&wing]

Would UPS pilots just lay down and let ASTAR pilots FLY UPS freight?

ASTAR pilots are still fighting a battle over scope. DHL executives agreed that ALL DHL freight would be flown by DHL Airways (now Astar) pilots in North America. DHL executives have used every legal loop hole they can. We are the original DHL Airways and that is our freight. Its time union pilots acted like union pilots.

Well, this is going to get a nice flame war started.

Hold on, let me go get a drink and some pop corn........................

 

[HD2003]

June 19, 2008

ASTAR Air Cargo Crewmembers File Grievance Against Proposed DHL/UPS Agreement

Wilmington, OH— ASTAR Air Cargo crewmembers, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA), today filed an expedited grievance with the ALPA/ASTAR System Board requesting a full investigation of and hearings on the numerous contract violations that would result from the proposed agreement between DHL and UPS. That agreement, announced in late May, would shift the airlift required for all DHL North American domestic air overnight delivery service to UPS—one of DHL’s chief competitors in the North American market. Currently, ASTAR carries 50% of the weight of DHL’s U.S. air freight.

ALPA seeks a cease and desist order against any transfer of flying now performed by ALPA-represented pilots to UPS. It also asks for a ruling that DHL is bound by the representations it made during the collective bargaining session and by the terms of Section 1 of the agreement.

“Our first priority is to make sure every aspect of our contract is respected by DHL,” said Capt. John Prater, president of ALPA. “While the contract requires that we file this grievance with ASTAR, we have also informed DHL of our actions. Not only will we allow DHL to fully participate in the investigation and subsequent hearings—we encourage it.”

The announcement between DHL and UPS came less than three months after ALPA and ASTAR agreed to a new contract with job security commitments from ASTAR. These commitments were endorsed by DHL, which at no time mentioned any ongoing negotiations with UPS and, in fact, misrepresented its future intentions to ASTAR and its crewmembers. DHL is a 49 percent owner of ASTAR and is represented on ASTAR’s Board of Directors..

Earlier this week, ALPA attempted to bring the actions of DHL and its parent company, Deutsche Post, to the attention of the German public by way of a newspaper ad in Bonn, the headquarters of Deutsche Post. The newspaper refused the ad, saying that it was too critical of the locally powerful Deutsche Post. A copy of the e-mail rejecting the ad is attached.

“This is just another example of how Deutsche Post and DHL insulate themselves from any criticism of their business practices,” said Capt. Prater. “Clearly, these companies make decisions in a vacuum without any thought toward how the decisions will affect the hard-working American men and women who have dedicated themselves to DHL’s success.”

 

[Big Beer Belly]

DHL executives agreed that ALL DHL freight would be flown by DHL Airways (now Astar) pilots in North America. ... We are the original DHL Airways and that is our freight.

Are you also suing ABX (ATSG) for flying YOUR freight?


BBB

 

[mxer]

Four years ago, the ABX freight was sold out to DPWN. Now DPWN is selling out to UPS. If ALPA sues ABX, do they have to give the freight back to ABX since that is where it started. Just sarcasm.

 

[mxer]

Psst. R&W. Hows that? Good flamin? Pass the popcorn. This one may get fun. Again, I was just being sarcastic. Laughing keeps us from crying.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Are you also suing ABX (ATSG) for flying YOUR freight?


BBB

ABX / ATSG (or whatever it is that we're calling ourselves today) actually was on the receiving end of an Astar/alpa lawsuit because of scope.

 

[shooter]

UPS would never be so foolish to put 100% of their customers boxes in their competitors hands. You can't blame UPS for any of this mess, it is all DHL. I also think you can't ask for help from UPS either since it is a windfall for them. They will control their competitor.....kill them if they wish while being paid to do it. All you can ask from UPS is that they do not pour salt in the wounds DHL has inflicted upon us, try to empathize for the situation we find ourselves in.

And before someone chirps in saying this is a great deal since the USPS does the same thing.....STOP. I worked for the USPS and no, it is far from the same thing. The USPS uses multiple carriers to move their freight as to shelter themselves from any one carriers possible future problems. The USPS also provides their own sort. The carriers just haul the cans and bags without them going into their own sort and scanners. That is why I think it is anti-competitive and bad for the consumers (you all can use that if you write the DOJ anti-trust division consumer tip line. I put that out earlier if you all are still waiting for some reason. )This deal is so.....I don't know if there is a word for it really. It favors UPS so much it has people such as myself saying there is more to this deal than we know. But no, you can't blame anyone but DHL and DHL alone.

 

[rotor&wing]

Psst. R&W. Hows that? Good flamin? Pass the popcorn. This one may get fun. Again, I was just being sarcastic. Laughing keeps us from crying.

I'm just waiting for someone to say "Yo mama is so ugly......(insert slam here).....

 

[HD2003]

UPS would never be so foolish to put 100% of their customers boxes in their competitors hands. You can't blame UPS for any of this mess, it is all DHL.


I didn't blame UPS. My original question stands.


Would UPS pilots just lay down and let ASTAR pilots FLY UPS freight?

 

[mxer]

I agree with Shooter. There is a lot more to the story. Kinda like trying to get to the bottom of something with your kids. You get some lame reasons from each side of why things happen a certain way that are so drastically different, the only thing you know is that someone isn't telling the whole truth. (I am referring only to ALL sets of management here) There is more to the game plan than "we lost too much money last year". That could have been fixed in ILN and everyone could still have jobs. IMO

 

[shooter]

UPS would never be so foolish to put 100% of their customers boxes in their competitors hands. You can't blame UPS for any of this mess, it is all DHL.


I didn't blame UPS. My original question stands.


Would UPS pilots just lay down and let ASTAR pilots FLY UPS freight?

Maybe I am getting confused as to what you are really asking. I thought your question was rhetorical. Are you serious about asking such a question? And if you are, what are you looking for in the answer. UPS pilots to add validity for your efforts in lawsuits to keep your jobs?

Your union is doing what it feels it needs to do. My opinion is that lawsuits are too lengthy to do any good in situations like this. Ask the Emery pilots and their continued on going lawsuits. Your efforts would be better spent by petitioning to the DOJ as a consumer and have them stop the deal as anti-competitive. IMO

 

[Browntothebone]

Maybe I am getting confused as to what you are really asking. I thought your question was rhetorical. Are you serious about asking such a question? And if you are, what are you looking for in the answer. UPS pilots to add validity for your efforts in lawsuits to keep your jobs?

Your union is doing what it feels it needs to do. My opinion is that lawsuits are too lengthy to do any good in situations like this. Ask the Emery pilots and their continued on going lawsuits. Your efforts would be better spent by petitioning to the DOJ as a consumer and have them stop the deal as anti-competitive. IMO

What's anti-competitive about it? DHL is just replacing 2 subcontractors with a single subcontractor.

 

[shooter]

What's anti-competitive about it? DHL is just replacing 2 subcontractors with a single subcontractor.

Read my post prior to that one.

 

[Browntothebone]

So. Tell me what's anti-competitive? ABX ran the sorting of DHL volume, now UPS will run the sorting of DHL volume. DHL will still pick up and deliver under their own brand. Sounds like you are grasping at straws.

 

[shooter]

So. Tell me what's anti-competitive? ABX ran the sorting of DHL volume, now UPS will run the sorting of DHL volume. DHL will still pick up and deliver under their own brand. Sounds like you are grasping at straws.

Not grasping at straws. But you seem to be to get this freight.

If you still wonder why I think this deal is anti-competitive, I will try and explain in further detail. For the following I would like you to think back to when UPS went on strike and how customers were able to get their packages.

The USPS tries to insulate themselves by using multiple carriers (FedEx, UPS and passenger carriers) and they use their own sorts. As a matter of fact, ABX does the sort work in a few of their locations. So If FedEx were to go on strike they have UPS and passenger carriers to get their customers freight moved.

If this deal goes through, UPS will control the flying and sorting for the DHL customers. If they were to go on strike DHL customers would be struck as well. Plus the USPS they already move for them. That would leave FedEx picking up much of the USPS, FedEx customers that have dual accounts diverting their packages through them and where will the remaining UPS and DHL customers go? Nowhere would be the correct answer. FedEx will be the sole carrier flying their customers and consumers would be crippled.

I’m not a business attorney, but as a consumer I find that highly anti-competitive and bad for consumers. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

If you still can't see how it is bad for consumers, you need to take your blinders off.

 

[Browntothebone]

Not grasping at straws. But you seem to be to get this freight.

If you still wonder why I think this deal is anti-competitive, I will try and explain in further detail. For the following I would like you to think back to when UPS went on strike and how customers were able to get their packages.

The USPS tries to insulate themselves by using multiple carriers (FedEx, UPS and passenger carriers) and they use their own sorts. As a matter of fact, ABX does the sort work in a few of their locations. So If FedEx were to go on strike they have UPS and passenger carriers to get their customers freight moved.

If this deal goes through, UPS will control the flying and sorting for the DHL customers. If they were to go on strike DHL customers would be struck as well. Plus the USPS they already move for them. That would leave FedEx picking up much of the USPS, FedEx customers that have dual accounts diverting their packages through them and where will the remaining UPS and DHL customers go? Nowhere would be the correct answer. FedEx will be the sole carrier flying their customers and consumers would be crippled.

I’m not a business attorney, but as a consumer I find that highly anti-competitive and bad for consumers. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

If you still can't see how it is bad for consumers, you need to take your blinders off.

You mean kinda like when the APWU tried to unionize the sorters in ILN? What if they went on strike? No DHL volume would move. According to your scenario, your own operation would be anti-competitive. If ABX or Astar pilots went on strike, the other would most assuredly not cross their picket line in ILN, therefore shutting down the sort. That's anti-competitive too.


As for bad for consumers, you are wrong. Both UPS and FedEx provide much better service than DHL does.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

So If FedEx were to go on strike they have UPS and passenger carriers to get their customers freight moved.

LOL! :laugh:

Shooter... you must be new to this industry to think UPS has enough spare capacity to pick up all the USPS volume that FedEx currently hauls.

If FedEx pilots were to strike, UPS would have their hands and planes full of express packages that shippers previously split between Fred and UPS.

I agree with BrownToThe Bone. This will be approved as just a change in subcontractors. There's nothing to see here, move along.

BBB

 

[shooter]

You mean kinda like when the APWU tried to unionize the sorters in ILN? What if they went on strike? No DHL volume would move. According to your scenario, your own operation would be anti-competitive. If ABX or Astar pilots went on strike, the other would most assuredly not cross their picket line in ILN, therefore shutting down the sort. That's anti-competitive too.


As for bad for consumers, you are wrong. Both UPS and FedEx provide much better service than DHL does.

When you have a 3rd competitor it absorbs the volume. Your name should be headboneisnumb.

DHL crappy drivers are better than no UPS or FedEx drivers.

 

[HD2003]

BrowntotheboneSo. said Tell me what's anti-competitive? ABX ran the sorting of DHL volume, now UPS will run the sorting of DHL volume. DHL will still pick up and deliver under their own brand. Sounds like you are grasping at straws.





Whatever makes you feel better!


The deal as proposed will restrain the competitive pricing for these services by effectively eliminating DHL as a competitor in the market. By contracting with UPS for the most critical element of their business, DHL will indirectly relinquish the ability to set its’ own prices. Once UPS has taken over the air services and put the current service providers out of business, DHL will have no other options for their lift and will be at UPS’s mercy. UPS will take over de facto control of the pricing of the DHL product in the United States.


ASTAR Pilots are still fighting over scope. You would understand If your company just ignored your contract as ours has. I hope you have better luck than us. Two more Pilot groups with good contracts going away doesn't help anyone.