If I wanted to phase out ASA....

[Speedtape]

I don't think he will "rule with a heavy hand." I believe that he will follow the contract and expect you to do the same. If he does not follow the contract you have recourse through your union. If you don't follow the contract you will be fired. I don't see this as being calloused I see that you have come to an agreement and if the agreement is broken then action is required.

A contract is nothing more than a piece of paper with words on it. When signed and executed, it is a mutual agreement between 2 parties where both have certain duties to perform, and both have certain "legal" benefits or rights. At this point, it is still a piece of paper. When either side feels "legal" harm exists due to one party not "performing" according to what was expected by the terms based on the other party's "understanding" or "interpretation" then the basis for a dispute exists. The dispute could be either a "minor dispute" or a "major dispute." Sometimes contracts lay out a path to resolve disputes such as mediation and/or binding arbitration. However, absence this provision, then the Court System is where the dispute will be resolved. In reference to the specific Pilot Working Agreement, there is a system laid out for both discipline issues and non-discipline issues. Both parties are required to follow this system prior to access to the legal system.

You made a statement that if a pilot does not follow the contract, he will be fired. In most cases, this is totally not true. First, the Company can fire anyone or as many as they desire. However, there can be both legal and economic consequences that inhibit this behavior. In addition, in most cases, the termination will not be upheld unless the company follows a pretty strict process and no disparate treatment is shown in the application of their policies. Furthermore, there is another test. The punishment or discipline has to fit the crime. Along the way in this multi-step process, most of the time a compromise will be struck that saves the employee's job. However, there are several things that will allow a termination to be upheld. Obviously, a felony conviction, job abandonment, and a certain level of insubordination are indefensible, most of the time.

Strong deterrents from an arbitrary termination or an unjust termination by the Company, are economic and legal exposures that can far outweigh the benefit of termination. These can be a result of many factors but some of the more common are discrimination, disparate treatment, and an unjust discipline for the "crime." In addition, just the cost of defending a termination through the prescribed process can be quite costly for the both parties. The Union has a duty to defend the employee's job, so the cost of doing so is usually not an option. On the other hand, the Company does have an option to mitigate the costs, and many times this will cause them to either not pursue termination, or compromise some where along the process. In general, due to all of these factors, no one will be terminated without a legal review and recommendation. Lawyers are generally risk sensitive and risk adverse and will choose not to expose their clients to a situation unless it is a slam dunk.

The new President will not arbitrarily fire anyone, and most likely these issues will never reach his level. An individual pilot will not be terminated for not following the contract as you previously stated. He may be fired for other reasons if there is merit. The only recent terminations that come to mind are probationary pilots, who have very little protection. As long as a pilot shows up and does his job, he has nothing to worry about.

These are the benefits of Union representation. Job protection from arbitrary terminations or disparate treatment is a major benefit.



Read the post earlier in this very thread. SkyWest is compensated based on many Performance peramiters. ASA is payed based on completion.

Sorry, WADR, this is wrong. ASA is compensated in the same way as Skywest Airlines. Primarily, both Companies are compensated by "Fee by Departure." That is the main revenue stream. Next, both Companies can receive additional compensation if they meet and exceed "A-15" and separately "Completion Factor" numbers prescribed by their DCI agreement. Both companies are compensated by the similar or same matrices.



I agree. My point is that if your new management succeeds, you will succeed. If he fails, unfortunatly, he will take you down with him. I am hoping for your success.

Thank you for your well wishes. ASA has the highest operating margins in the Airline industry. Yes, our contract may reduce that margin by some percentage. Based on some things I have read, it appears that it will be minimal. ASA, most likely earned about $22 million of the $40+ million that INC. earned last quarter. It seems unfathomable that ASA is going away based on those numbers. Inc.'s goal seems to be to tweak some things that will improve the operation and earn them more money in regard to the "operation" incentives. Hopefully, this new President can effect those changes. After 7 years or more of ineffective leadership, we welcome anyone who can successfully address and correct the problem areas. As employees, we have a great amount of pride in our Company, knowing what we have contributed, but fully understanding that most of the negatives in the running of this Company are out of our control. The new President's background maybe exactly what our Company needs at this time. However, many of the processes that have recently been put into place by current leadership seem to be having positive results. Unfortunately, they will not get credit for it.

There have been threads on here explaining how ASA pilots can take down the airline (pre-contract). There have been threads on here where the pilots say it's all on management to succeed and if management fails it will not hurt them. I believe that BH is going down for one final chance to save ASA. If he fails ASA will go away.

While earning nearly $90 million a year, ASA will not go away. Please, seek immediate counseling!

There are many things said on this board and others behind the safety of a "screen name." However, unfortunately, most of these things stated are for "sport" and seeking reaction. There are really not that many people who actually post. Most of the time, their views are not shared by the masses. However, occasionally, there are actually some discussions and ?debates? that are both informative and sometimes intellectual--but those are in the minority.



I agree. I believe very small portion of the problem at ASA lies with the pilot group. I also understand the ramp issues. I know that they are Delta employees. My whole point is that even though Delta has set you up to fail they expect you to succeed. If you don't they will have you replaced. Do I think that it's fair? No. But I do think that is what they expect. Once again I wish you success.

The Ramp has greatly improved since June, and I expect to see further improvements. Given the fact that the ramp is not run by my Company, it puts us on the same level playing field as any other DCI carrier operating in ATL as well as mainline. Your sentence above that states "_ _ _ _ _ has set you up to fail, they expect you to succeed," has alot of merit with some of the turn times that existed this summer. In my view, based on the above, my company can now compete with any other DCI carrier in ATL in reference to operational performance because ground handling is the same.


I also understand what it's like to be out of a job. It's not a pretty thing. If MESA loses UAX flying I don't think one single pilot would be let go. They are very short staffed as it is. Some of there pilots will have to relocate, but they will still have jobs.

Relocation is just as traumatic many times as losing a job.

From what I have read about UA lately and then heard from friends there, they are not out of the woods. I would have great concerns about being an outsourcer for them--it could be temporary depending on the economy.


Because tone is very hard to read on a message board I will put out my disclaimer before I ask this next question.
Disclaimer
I do not claim to be an expert in contract law. I do not advocate this in anyway. I would just like to know if your contract offers you the protection.

I understand that INC can only transfer a limited number of aircraft per year. I also understand that Delta continues to retire 50 seat aircraft and add 70 and 76 seat aircraft. Do you have language in your contract that prevents INC from retiring 50s from your fleet and adding larger equipment to SkyWest. I would hope that spefic language is your contract to protect against this because it could be argued either way if you have nothing defining "the transfer of aircraft."

It is my understanding, that INC, has to comply not only with the specific language, but also the spirit. To answer your question, there is no specific language, however, there is recourse if there is a scheme to circumvent the language. It cannot be argued either way! Sorry, I know you were looking for the quick upgrade at out expense!

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

For the record most of the "problem pilots" at ASA are the guys who follow the contract and the FOM to the letter. Because, they don't take up the slack in areas that is not part of the pilot's job title or contract.

Some folks might get fired, but anyone who does is almost certain to get the job back with back pay. Some people are idiots and probably shouldn't have their jobs back, but for better or worse the union has to fight for them equally. The union is VERY good at this. PLus, what makes you think that this guy is any different than the previous management teams in regards to going after pilots? Historically ASA has not been very friendly towards any of it's employee groups. I hope the BH does come in and start making some changes for the better. But, the pilots are the least of his problems when it comes to making this compnay run better. The two CEO/COO's that have been in place since I started at ASA have been seat fillers, I hope BH is the leader that we desperately need. Time will tell.

 

[MONKEY]

It is my understanding, that INC, has to comply not only with the specific language, but also the spirit. To answer your question, there is no specific language, however, there is recourse if there is a scheme to circumvent the language. It cannot be argued either way! Sorry, I know you were looking for the quick upgrade at out expense!

Nope... not looking to take your aircraft. The only way that we can stop the whipsaw is to lock all current aircraft in where they are at. All SkyWest aircraft stay at SkyWest. All ASA aircraft stay at ASA.
You stated that in your contract that INC cannot transfer aircraft from SkyWest to ASA beyond a certain number without certain criteria being met. Very smart move on your part. It helps both groups to stop the whipsaw and accomplishes what we cannot or were unwilling to accomplish through a union vote.

As far as firings go, I fully understand that they are expensive. There are more costs than just the judicial proceedings. If you fire a captain you then have to train a new captain as well as a new fo. That being said I still feel that those who merit termination will be let go in spite of the costs.

But, the pilots are the least of his problems when it comes to making this compnay run better.

I agree that the pilots are not a major problem. I also think that he will start with management first. I do not believe that he will be out to pick a fight with the pilot group. But, if merited, he will deal with individuals who he perceives as problems warranting termination.

 

[Speedtape]

He will be limited at this property in how he deals with pilots and F/A's, compared to Skywest. I am not sure what you are trying to project in regard to this man's nature or image, but you are not giving him a favorable introduction. I expect that we may see behavior that is quite different from what you describe or how he may act in his new environment. I can assure you one thing, if he or anyone else attempts to bulldoze this pilot group or employee group, he want last long in his job. Hopefully, he is smart enough to see that he can win over this employee group with positive actions and plans that we can all embrace so that we can further solve his problems in the operation of this company. The Management technique of motivating through fear, will not be tolerated by this group. It may work in Utah, but as they say down South: "That Dog don't hunt here, in Georgia!"

 

[SkyNation]

here's some thoughts on BH from our internal forum. The dude is not as bad as some would have you believe.

[FONT=MS Sans Serif,verdana,arial,helv][SIZE=-1]"I'd like to congratulate Brad on his move to ASA as their President and COO, and I wish him and his family much success in ATL. I know many pilots, including myself, who Brad has personally helped through difficult times over the years, and I can only say he will be truly missed. I know much of the success we have had at SkyWest in the past few years is a direct result of his leadership, so I hope the people at ASA know what kind of person they are getting to run their company. So I'd like to tip my hat to him, and wish him the best of success, as he is a person who I have the absolute highest respect for, and I am sorry to see him go"

[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=MS Sans Serif,verdana,arial,helv][SIZE=-1] "I have to agree . Brad was one of the first to help me during a bad time in my life. When my ex-wife was in the hospital he donated alot of vacation time to help me out. He also gave me his person number to call him any time day or night, if I needed help. I had been here less then a year. I will never forget that. Brad congratulation on your new job you will be missed. Thank You!!!!!!!"[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[John Pennekamp]

John

I understand your point of view. You hate ASA. You hate management. You hate your job. You may even hate your life. All your posts on this board have made all that pretty clear. You personally will also hate BH because he is management.

My posts are not pro-Holt nor anti-Holt. I'm just giving my opinion of what I think will happen. I think holt will come down there and clean house. Starting with management. He will in a Steinbrenneresque manner set his sights on problem pilots. Note that I would define a problem pilot as a pilot not willing to live up what the union agreed to.

I have been around long enough to know how he works. He will get things done and will step on toes to do it. In the end the majority of the pilots will like what ASA has become even if they don't like the way he did it. Many will hate him as you will or do johny.

Since you have taken the time to give us your opinion over and over, I figured it is only fair to tell you mine. You can take that as boot licking if you want. I'm not saying it will be a love fest, I'm not saying it will be a Nazi concentration camp. I'm saying the job will get done. Now johny boy I will let you get back to hating life.

No, monkey boy, I don't hate, I'm just very cynical after years of being abused and lied to at work. You'd find that very common here at ASA.

I need not respond only to echo what Speedtape said. You have no idea how it works in a union shop, and I agree with him that BH will not pick a fight with the line pilots. In a union shop, it is economically unfeasible to fire someone unjustly "to make an example of them" as they did at SkyWest, which is what you're used to. I suspect Brad will be nothing more than a rubber stamp for Jerry and Chip, carrying out their orders here at ASA. Brad WILL clean out the GO but we won't feel his wrath on the line other than the typical insincere management feel good notes.

And if he does attempt to "bulldoze" the pilot group into submission by using SkyWest fear tactics, he will be met by fierce resistance by the pilot group. We've seen this all before in a long line of aggressive mis-managers who tried it (G&J, CT and SY to name a few), and they are all gone from the industry now. When performance tanks, BH will too be gone if he tries to push us.

If he's as smart as you all say, he won't.

 

[John Pennekamp]

here's some thoughts on BH from our internal forum. The dude is not as bad as some would have you believe.

[FONT=MS Sans Serif,verdana,arial,helv][SIZE=-1]"I'd like to congratulate Brad on his move to ASA as their President and COO, and I wish him and his family much success in ATL. I know many pilots, including myself, who Brad has personally helped through difficult times over the years, and I can only say he will be truly missed. I know much of the success we have had at SkyWest in the past few years is a direct result of his leadership, so I hope the people at ASA know what kind of person they are getting to run their company. So I'd like to tip my hat to him, and wish him the best of success, as he is a person who I have the absolute highest respect for, and I am sorry to see him go"

[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=MS Sans Serif,verdana,arial,helv][SIZE=-1] "I have to agree . Brad was one of the first to help me during a bad time in my life. When my ex-wife was in the hospital he donated alot of vacation time to help me out. He also gave me his person number to call him any time day or night, if I needed help. I had been here less then a year. I will never forget that. Brad congratulation on your new job you will be missed. Thank You!!!!!!!"[/SIZE][/FONT]

In the interest of fairness, you don't tend to see people publicly write a "good riddance" letter and sign it publicly.

Our current Chief Pilot, (SH) is a back stabbing bastard who gets personal enjoyment from sticking it to the union and laughing in our faces about it. He also claims all of ASA's performance problems are the line's fault, and we caused the loss of the -900s to SkyWest. Yet, you'll still see and hear pilot championing him as a hero because he helped them out with something. That's how they try to make a name for themselves. They have a psychological need to be liked. I'm sure they were nerds in high school who got their lunch money stolen every day too.

My point is so what if SOME pilots are sad to see him go. There's always a few in the group, even here. In my travels on the ALPA organizing committee, in talking to average SkyWest pilots, BH is no saint, but rather someone a lot like our SH who ruled with a iron fist and patted you on the back right before he stabbed it.

 

[Coloaviator]

After 6 pages you ASA guys just don't get it. If BH fails you guys fail which means the end of ASA. The fact is if you guys at ASA meet him with resistance and things don't improve-GOODBYE! It's so simple "cooperate-graduate". BH wants ASA to be sucessful, thats the bottom line. The message is loud and clear
SHAPE UP OR SHIP OUT!

 

[John Pennekamp]

After 6 pages you ASA guys just don't get it. If BH fails you guys fail which means the end of ASA. The fact is if you guys at ASA meet him with resistance and things don't improve-GOODBYE! It's so simple "cooperate-graduate". BH wants ASA to be sucessful, thats the bottom line. The message is loud and clear
SHAPE UP OR SHIP OUT!

Sorry, pal, but as Speedtape said "that dog don't hunt" here. His heavy handed intimidation tactice won't work.

ASA isn't going anywhere. Our profit margin is better than SkyWest Airlines.

Brad is here because Jerry is rewarding him for his years of loyalty by giving him his dream shot to become one of the big boys. A lot is at stake for Brad. If he succeeds, he joins the CEO club and retires a multi-millionaire. If he fails he's gone for good and never gets another chance. His success depends on whether he bullies us or gives us the relief we've been hoping for. I have a feeling he will abandon the "shape up or ship out" tactics he used over there and befriend us. It's his only path to success, and I'm sure he knows that.

 

[USCtrojan]

In the interest of fairness, you don't tend to see people publicly write a "good riddance" letter and sign it publicly.

Our current Chief Pilot, (SH) is a back stabbing bastard who gets personal enjoyment from sticking it to the union and laughing in our faces about it. He also claims all of ASA's performance problems are the line's fault, and we caused the loss of the -900s to SkyWest. Yet, you'll still see and hear pilot championing him as a hero because he helped them out with something. That's how they try to make a name for themselves. They have a psychological need to be liked. I'm sure they were nerds in high school who got their lunch money stolen every day too.

My point is so what if SOME pilots are sad to see him go. There's always a few in the group, even here. In my travels on the ALPA organizing committee, in talking to average SkyWest pilots, BH is no saint, but rather someone a lot like our SH who ruled with a iron fist and patted you on the back right before he stabbed it.

JP brings up a great point. And if you talk to any ASA pilot (other than a recent new hire), they'll tell you about all the lies (We're shrinking if we don't take a paycut), the deception (Charlies letter outlying our 3 options), and the incompetence (Brian's last July performance where he claimed he was working on getting ground equip, while ASA's performance was one of the worst ever--and that says something at ASA).

I have a very close friend of mine at SkyWest who I talk to about life at SkyWest. He's said some pretty good things about BH. Some of the things he's said is that after a hard day at sim training they'd go burn off some steam at Lofty's, grab a beer and BH would walk in. He'd introduce himself to the New Hires/Upgrades, then buy everyone a round. That's f'n cool in my book. Conversely, if you see BH in the office and ask for a pay raise or equivalent, "NO, AND IF YOU ASK AGAIN YOU'RE FIRED." Or something to that effect. Now granted, nobody (except maybe SAPA) is going to ask that kind of thing, but I tell it for effect. He's a hard ass, and he's exactly what ASA needs.

I miss the original owners of ASA (John and George), because at least they never lied to the line pilots. Granted, the answer was always an emphatic NO, but they built a money tree Airline. I'm optomistic Mr. Holt can steer the ASA ship in the right direction. ASA needs an iron fist right now. We need a leader. I would say the best way to Lead ASA right now besides old fashioned smarts, is to be honest. That will get the troops behind you quickly.

Trojan

 

[SkyNation]

A lot is at stake for Brad. If he succeeds, he joins the CEO club and retires a multi-millionaire.

He already is a multi-millionaire. That comes from years of running Flt. Ops on budget and getting a huge bonus.

I think you guys have him pegged right for the most part. Brad is a hard ass, but he'll look out for guys doing their job. He's usually in the office at 5 AM and works late. He's not the warm fuzzy type, but he'll get his objectives accomplished.

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

Andy:

"I care about the time involved to develop flight schedules using genetic algorithms with PMX breeding vs the time required without PMX breeding"

You kill me; only from the mind of an operations researcher...actually, quite a few dissertations and papers written on the subject that I've scanned, both from a crew and aircraft scheduling perspective. Contrary to others, I'm all for learning as well, simply for learning's sake...nothing wrong with it.

Rob G (In ORD)

 

[Speedtape]

After 6 pages you ASA guys just don't get it. If BH fails you guys fail which means the end of ASA. The fact is if you guys at ASA meet him with resistance and things don't improve-GOODBYE! It's so simple "cooperate-graduate". BH wants ASA to be sucessful, thats the bottom line. The message is loud and clear
SHAPE UP OR SHIP OUT!

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, punk'n! Earning nearly $90 million a year with the highest operating margin is not failing! If it is, then YOU guys are in big trouble!

"Shape up or Ship Out???" Take your Ship and lame, pea brain tactics and stick it! We don't buy into intimidation through fear and we already passed the test on Union Busting Tactics 101. How did you vote?

You are giving your pilot group a bad name. Take your kindergarten tactics somewhere else, NOnads Angry Elf!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

JP brings up a great point. And if you talk to any ASA pilot (other than a recent new hire), they'll tell you about all the lies (We're shrinking if we don't take a paycut), the deception (Charlies letter outlying our 3 options), and the incompetence (Brian's last July performance where he claimed he was working on getting ground equip, while ASA's performance was one of the worst ever--and that says something at ASA).

I have a very close friend of mine at SkyWest who I talk to about life at SkyWest. He's said some pretty good things about BH. Some of the things he's said is that after a hard day at sim training they'd go burn off some steam at Lofty's, grab a beer and BH would walk in. He'd introduce himself to the New Hires/Upgrades, then buy everyone a round. That's f'n cool in my book. Conversely, if you see BH in the office and ask for a pay raise or equivalent, "NO, AND IF YOU ASK AGAIN YOU'RE FIRED." Or something to that effect. Now granted, nobody (except maybe SAPA) is going to ask that kind of thing, but I tell it for effect. He's a hard ass, and he's exactly what ASA needs.

I miss the original owners of ASA (John and George), because at least they never lied to the line pilots. Granted, the answer was always an emphatic NO, but they built a money tree Airline. I'm optomistic Mr. Holt can steer the ASA ship in the right direction. ASA needs an iron fist right now. We need a leader. I would say the best way to Lead ASA right now besides old fashioned smarts, is to be honest. That will get the troops behind you quickly.

Trojan

That's because a round of beer for a few guys at Lofty's every once in a while is a lot cheaper than a fair pay increase along with retro pay and annual COLA....sadly many of the crews here can't seem to figure that out!

 

[John Pennekamp]

That's because a round of beer for a few guys at Lofty's every once in a while is a lot cheaper than a fair pay increase along with retro pay and annual COLA....sadly many of the crews here can't seem to figure that out!

BINGO!!!!!

 

[Ineedabrew]

After 6 pages you ASA guys just don't get it. If BH fails you guys fail which means the end of ASA. The fact is if you guys at ASA meet him with resistance and things don't improve-GOODBYE! It's so simple "cooperate-graduate". BH wants ASA to be sucessful, thats the bottom line. The message is loud and clear
SHAPE UP OR SHIP OUT!

Ahh, what? Nevermind

 

[Ineedabrew]

I tried to hold back but I can not. You start these lame treads every other day and wonder what’s all the fuss over. ASA has a union; it is run in a different way then Sky Worst. I do not care who Sky Worst sends over he/she will have to deal with our union. What part of this do you not understand? Also, if you are trying to catch a ride on my plane, in the next four day’s, well, you are not getting on. Have a nice day

 

[USCtrojan]

SHAPE UP OR SHIP OUT

I think I heard this same line right after SkyWest purchased ASA. I had a senior SkyWest Captain on my jumpseat saying ASA pilots had better settle or we'd be sold to Mesa. The line never changes. Same old story, same old Bullsh!t. You don't understand. ASA is a money tree. Get it? Brad doesn't get the job done, Brad is done. Brad doesn't pull in a 13.2% profit margin, ASA does. Got it? Good. ASA goes away, so does SkyWest.

Trojan

 

[USCtrojan]

That's because a round of beer for a few guys at Lofty's every once in a while is a lot cheaper than a fair pay increase along with retro pay and annual COLA....sadly many of the crews here can't seem to figure that out!

Well it stands to reason then that it works well. So, either Brad's the smartest guy in the world, or SkyWest pilots don't mind the free beer in lieu of COLA's and payraises. I'd say it's pretty smart. 100 bucks in rounds or 2,000,000 in raises...hmmmm. what to do, what to do.....

Trojan

 

[John Pennekamp]

It's very simple. This pilot group is battle scarred. Treat us with respect and give us the tools to do our jobs, or the money tree dies. I think Brad already knows that.