IBT agrees to allow vote for NJASAP

[netjetwife]

Thanks, Sky, I didn't think you were of the mind-set that only saw unions in an antagonistic light where management's concerned. Unfortunately, unionization because of bad management is quite common and then the pilots have to fight for a fair deal, just like the Options pilotgroup. With the logical and obvious success of the carrot approach, it's amazing how tightly some managers will cling to their stick...

I agree with the quick-response-when-abused theory--for the most part. There's also the abused but too fearful to stand up for yourself types that have to be dragged along. They won't do anything to rock the boat and that attitude just opens the door wider for exploitation.

NJASAP has shown that you garner respect when you stand up for your rights and aren't afraid to speak up. The agreement, fair for all involved, is another example that carrots are better than the stick approach. After the rocky start to the discussions it's nice to see the process on the right path.

 

[RTRHD]

Thanks SL, good posts. I really do see us headed the way of the airline. Notice how little customer get mentioned, its all about fatigue calls and watching scheduling.

 

[fischman]

This is a big part of what really bothers me. I really like and care for our management. A big part of what we do is make things happen for the customer(legally). Why would I want to file a grievance against my buddies or Mr.RTS or Mr.WB. I like being here. I was lucky to be hired to work with such good people and I needed a job when I got here.

RTRHD,

I'm not flame baiting, just asking.

Have you ever worked for a union shop?

At NJA we had a long BuMpY road to an agreement with the company. We had to fight for every single word in that contract. If the company doesn't comply with the contract they to which they agreed, the appropriate action is to file the grievance. It isn't personal, it is business. Where do you draw the line?

 

[realityman]

RT,

I'm very grateful to have a job! And show me one post where I've said that I'm not happy here.

But being grateful for the job, and expecting management (and the pilots!) to play by the rules we all mutually agreed to are two separate issues.

I assure you, if I violate the rules of the contract (or the FAR's, or even the FOM) I'll be subject to disciplinary action, up to termination.

If the company violates the rules of the contract, what should we do? Just shrug our shoulders and say, "Oh well, it was really nice that they hired me, so I guess I can let it slide."? Grievances are just the pilots' way of making sure the rules get followed from the company's side.

If we don't insist they follow the rules, then why bother having a contract?

And it's really not personal. I highly doubt that RTS and/or WB keep a list of names of people who file grievances. You could file dozens of grievances and I'm sure you'd still be buddies with whoever you want in management. I've filed plenty of grievances and am still on good terms with my CP and ACP's. I doubt they even know about them.

 

[realityman]

Thanks SL, good posts. I really do see us headed the way of the airline. Notice how little customer get mentioned, its all about fatigue calls and watching scheduling.

If you're making this judgement based on what you read on FI, you are seriously ill-informed. Not your fault, since you don't have access to our union message boards, but wrong.

There are at least four separate threads going on our union message board right now discussing at great length customer service, what it really takes, and how we can improve upon it.

As for fatigue calls vs. customer service, aren't they one and the same? What favors are you doing for the client by flying when you're really tired? It's GREAT customer service to get them to their destination even when you're tired. It's just one more leg, right? I wonder if it'll be considered the same great service if we ball one up because a tired pilot made a critical mistake?

Not picking on you, RT. Just wondering if you really believe that calling in fatigued when you're tired is a bad thing.

 

[RTRHD]

RTRHD,

I'm not flame baiting, just asking.

Have you ever worked for a union shop?

No, I have no idea. In the early 80's when oil went on its arss I had to work for a commuter (notice the mighty 1900 type). We threatened, I don't even know why.

 

[RTRHD]

If you're making this judgement based on what you read on FI, you are seriously ill-informed. Not your fault, since you don't have access to our union message boards, but wrong.

There are at least four separate threads going on our union message board right now discussing at great length customer service, what it really takes, and how we can improve upon it.

As for fatigue calls vs. customer service, aren't they one and the same? What favors are you doing for the client by flying when you're really tired? It's GREAT customer service to get them to their destination even when you're tired. It's just one more leg, right? I wonder if it'll be considered the same great service if we ball one up because a tired pilot made a critical mistake?

Not picking on you, RT. Just wondering if you really believe that calling in fatigued when you're tired is a bad thing.

I don't mind being picked on. Heaven knows I started a lot of stuff on this board. No flame intended here either but do you have any idea what we do in G land? I do understand your safety point. I replaced a Chief Pilot once that was so safe he never went anywhere. Is there not a balance or we would never get in on of these things.

 

[realityman]

I don't mind being picked on. Heaven knows I started a lot of stuff on this board. No flame intended here either but do you have any idea what we do in G land? I do understand your safety point. I replaced a Chief Pilot once that was so safe he never went anywhere. Is there not a balance or we would never get in on of these things.

LOL!! Oh so true! I haven't balled one up yet while sitting at home behind my computer screen.

Actually, I do have a pretty good idea what you do in G land. It's pretty much the same as what we do over here in lowercase 'g' land. Except you do more international. It's not as if fatigue calls come from every crew every day. I can tell you that personally, I can do three 14/10 days in a row before I'm going to need some extra rest. That can vary a bit, depending on the types of stressors I encounter during my days, but is a pretty good rule of thumb for me. But when I do need call fatigued, it's nice to know that I won't be questioned or face any disciplinary action. It would be unfortunate to inconvenience pax, but if I'm really that tired I wouldn't be doing them any favors flying them when tired.

We seem to be getting things done pretty well over here, even with fatigue calls. It really is just a tool to improve safety.

 

[RTRHD]

We seem to be getting things done pretty well over here, even with fatigue calls. It really is just a tool to improve safety.

No doubt and I don't mean to imply different. We just don't have to ability to be recovered that you guys do. Thats all. And my sole union education has been the contract,Lobby at HPN and FI. And someone really needs to publish "NJ Contract for Dummies" :laugh:

 

[fischman]

Don't worry, when the integration begins, there are PLENTY of folks on the union message boards who are experts on the contract, it's interpretations, how to file a grievance, etc... (Look me up when you get there. You'll know who I am.)

 

[SKYLAWYER]

No doubt and I don't mean to imply different. We just don't have to ability to be recovered that you guys do. Thats all. And my sole union education has been the contract,Lobby at HPN and FI. And someone really needs to publish "NJ Contract for Dummies" :laugh:

Great point on the recovery aspect. I don't know what happens around the globe but I have bet lunch with guys at CS that when we land at a new airport to us that we will see a QS tail on the ramp. No matter how third world the airport seems on paper I have not lost a single bet yet. The size of the NJ operation across the United States is impressive. I can easily see recovering a trip within the US especially with the amount of full crews I bump into sitting stby in the FBO's. Everyones definition of fatigued is different. I can personally work until 3 am with no problem, but get me in the aircraft before 6am and I can be a zombie no matter how much rest I have had. (can't seem to fall asleep before 11pm no matter what) How do you handle a fatigue recovery in China, or Dubai? It may not be the right thing to do to fly while fatigued, but it can't be right to view the operation the same as it is across the US. Most pilots would apply common sense to gage how tired they feel and the impact of the operation but what about the 10 percent (we all have them) that simply don't care about the operation? I can easily see where RTRHD concerns are valid. Put certain crews in certain situations and back them up 100% and you may never see a single flight hour logged. Especially on brand new fleets, most pilots know new fleets roll out of the assembly line semi-haunted. The right crews with the right operational understanding and safety consciousness (not safety paranoia) can truly make the difference to an organization.

 

[tk855]

No doubt and I don't mean to imply different. We just don't have to ability to be recovered that you guys do. Thats all. And my sole union education has been the contract,Lobby at HPN and FI. And someone really needs to publish "NJ Contract for Dummies" :laugh:

That is why you guys utilize a completely different set of schedulers than we do! Some days, our scheduling can be their own worst enemy! They seem to have a knack for stacking the cards in a way that they are sure to come crashing down. RTRHD, I would assume your schedulers are a little more attentive to how they build the "house of cards" per sey.

 

[RTRHD]

but what about the 10 percent (we all have them) that simply don't care about the operation?

Especially on brand new fleets, most pilots know new fleets roll out of the assembly line semi-haunted. The right crews with the right operational understanding and safety consciousness (not safety paranoia) can truly make the difference to an organization.

Exactly !!!

 

[RTRHD]

That is why you guys utilize a completely different set of schedulers than we do! Some days, our scheduling can be their own worst enemy! They seem to have a knack for stacking the cards in a way that they are sure to come crashing down. RTRHD, I would assume your schedulers are a little more attentive to how they build the "house of cards" per sey.

"O" we watch it come unzipped every now and then also. We just can get so out there and by ourself. All of there eggs are really in one basket.

 

[netjetwife]

....There are at least four separate threads going on our union message board right now discussing at great length customer service, what it really takes, and how we can improve upon it. ...

This was my thought exactly, especially since I had just been reading the NJASAP board. I follow the customer service posts because it's a very important project. I'm aware that the Union Training Committee has had some input into the Company discussions/plans and, like others, I'm waiting to see what develops. The joint committees are a great way for the pilotgroup to help make NJA a better place for everyone--from employees to owners.