IBT agrees to allow vote for NJASAP

[RTRHD]

RTRHD,

I'm not flame baiting, just asking.

Have you ever worked for a union shop?

No, I have no idea. In the early 80's when oil went on its arss I had to work for a commuter (notice the mighty 1900 type). We threatened, I don't even know why.

 

[RTRHD]

If you're making this judgement based on what you read on FI, you are seriously ill-informed. Not your fault, since you don't have access to our union message boards, but wrong.

There are at least four separate threads going on our union message board right now discussing at great length customer service, what it really takes, and how we can improve upon it.

As for fatigue calls vs. customer service, aren't they one and the same? What favors are you doing for the client by flying when you're really tired? It's GREAT customer service to get them to their destination even when you're tired. It's just one more leg, right? I wonder if it'll be considered the same great service if we ball one up because a tired pilot made a critical mistake?

Not picking on you, RT. Just wondering if you really believe that calling in fatigued when you're tired is a bad thing.

I don't mind being picked on. Heaven knows I started a lot of stuff on this board. No flame intended here either but do you have any idea what we do in G land? I do understand your safety point. I replaced a Chief Pilot once that was so safe he never went anywhere. Is there not a balance or we would never get in on of these things.

 

[realityman]

I don't mind being picked on. Heaven knows I started a lot of stuff on this board. No flame intended here either but do you have any idea what we do in G land? I do understand your safety point. I replaced a Chief Pilot once that was so safe he never went anywhere. Is there not a balance or we would never get in on of these things.

LOL!! Oh so true! I haven't balled one up yet while sitting at home behind my computer screen.

Actually, I do have a pretty good idea what you do in G land. It's pretty much the same as what we do over here in lowercase 'g' land. Except you do more international. It's not as if fatigue calls come from every crew every day. I can tell you that personally, I can do three 14/10 days in a row before I'm going to need some extra rest. That can vary a bit, depending on the types of stressors I encounter during my days, but is a pretty good rule of thumb for me. But when I do need call fatigued, it's nice to know that I won't be questioned or face any disciplinary action. It would be unfortunate to inconvenience pax, but if I'm really that tired I wouldn't be doing them any favors flying them when tired.

We seem to be getting things done pretty well over here, even with fatigue calls. It really is just a tool to improve safety.

 

[RTRHD]

We seem to be getting things done pretty well over here, even with fatigue calls. It really is just a tool to improve safety.

No doubt and I don't mean to imply different. We just don't have to ability to be recovered that you guys do. Thats all. And my sole union education has been the contract,Lobby at HPN and FI. And someone really needs to publish "NJ Contract for Dummies" :laugh:

 

[fischman]

Don't worry, when the integration begins, there are PLENTY of folks on the union message boards who are experts on the contract, it's interpretations, how to file a grievance, etc... (Look me up when you get there. You'll know who I am.)

 

[SKYLAWYER]

No doubt and I don't mean to imply different. We just don't have to ability to be recovered that you guys do. Thats all. And my sole union education has been the contract,Lobby at HPN and FI. And someone really needs to publish "NJ Contract for Dummies" :laugh:

Great point on the recovery aspect. I don't know what happens around the globe but I have bet lunch with guys at CS that when we land at a new airport to us that we will see a QS tail on the ramp. No matter how third world the airport seems on paper I have not lost a single bet yet. The size of the NJ operation across the United States is impressive. I can easily see recovering a trip within the US especially with the amount of full crews I bump into sitting stby in the FBO's. Everyones definition of fatigued is different. I can personally work until 3 am with no problem, but get me in the aircraft before 6am and I can be a zombie no matter how much rest I have had. (can't seem to fall asleep before 11pm no matter what) How do you handle a fatigue recovery in China, or Dubai? It may not be the right thing to do to fly while fatigued, but it can't be right to view the operation the same as it is across the US. Most pilots would apply common sense to gage how tired they feel and the impact of the operation but what about the 10 percent (we all have them) that simply don't care about the operation? I can easily see where RTRHD concerns are valid. Put certain crews in certain situations and back them up 100% and you may never see a single flight hour logged. Especially on brand new fleets, most pilots know new fleets roll out of the assembly line semi-haunted. The right crews with the right operational understanding and safety consciousness (not safety paranoia) can truly make the difference to an organization.

 

[tk855]

No doubt and I don't mean to imply different. We just don't have to ability to be recovered that you guys do. Thats all. And my sole union education has been the contract,Lobby at HPN and FI. And someone really needs to publish "NJ Contract for Dummies" :laugh:

That is why you guys utilize a completely different set of schedulers than we do! Some days, our scheduling can be their own worst enemy! They seem to have a knack for stacking the cards in a way that they are sure to come crashing down. RTRHD, I would assume your schedulers are a little more attentive to how they build the "house of cards" per sey.

 

[RTRHD]

but what about the 10 percent (we all have them) that simply don't care about the operation?

Especially on brand new fleets, most pilots know new fleets roll out of the assembly line semi-haunted. The right crews with the right operational understanding and safety consciousness (not safety paranoia) can truly make the difference to an organization.

Exactly !!!

 

[RTRHD]

That is why you guys utilize a completely different set of schedulers than we do! Some days, our scheduling can be their own worst enemy! They seem to have a knack for stacking the cards in a way that they are sure to come crashing down. RTRHD, I would assume your schedulers are a little more attentive to how they build the "house of cards" per sey.

"O" we watch it come unzipped every now and then also. We just can get so out there and by ourself. All of there eggs are really in one basket.

 

[netjetwife]

....There are at least four separate threads going on our union message board right now discussing at great length customer service, what it really takes, and how we can improve upon it. ...

This was my thought exactly, especially since I had just been reading the NJASAP board. I follow the customer service posts because it's a very important project. I'm aware that the Union Training Committee has had some input into the Company discussions/plans and, like others, I'm waiting to see what develops. The joint committees are a great way for the pilotgroup to help make NJA a better place for everyone--from employees to owners.

 

[airjackson]

Will I may not know as much as you do. I just work there (NJI). But I think it is pretty safe to say no one wanted to be part of a truckers/rampers union.

...or a union which would sell it's union brothers and sisters down the river as they did with Gojet Airlines. The IBT was all too happy to step in and organize them when it was obvious to all that Gojet was formed to do an end-run around the Trans States pilot's CBA. Absolutely dispicable is the IBT. F-them and best of luck to the NetJets pilots.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

NJW... good thread... oh and say hello to the Col.!!

 

[netjetwife]

AJ, your support is appreciated... Your opinion (solidly backed up with an example) illustrates why the NJ pilots want to stand alone on their own good record. It's frustrating and difficult to be part of an organization whose reputation is tarnished and whose attention is too often divided among competing interests.

In the marketplace companies must respond to their customers' feedback or lose their business. It's my hope that watching the NJ pilots vote with their feet will compel the IBT to do a better job representing their other pilotgroups, especially our friends/neighbors from FltOps.

Thanks, Rez! I'll be happy to pass along your greetings.... NJW

 

[RTRHD]

obvious to all that Gojet was formed to do an end-run around the Trans States pilot's CBA. Absolutely despicable is the IBT. F-them and best of luck to the NetJets pilots.

OK ,say it I know someone is dieing too.

 

[YankeeEcho]

......I, too, just felt that it was a safe thing to say based on my conversations here with NJI pilots that have told me an in-house union is more appealing than the Teamsters.

.... Actually, I was being considerate of the opinions of the NJI pilots that are likely to be merged with NJASAP.

Saying an 'in-house union is more appealing than the Teamsters' to the NJI pilots is like saying dying of a heart attack is more appealing than dying of cancer. Please respect our right of self-determination and concentrate on your own issues!

 

[Ultra Grump]

Please respect our right of self-determination...

Good luck with that!

 

[netjetwife]

Not need to be so dramatic, Yankee... nor insulting. Some of your fellow pilots have had a better attitude, thankfully. I think they realize that it's prudent to adapt if you can't change the situation. At times like these an open mind and a positive outlook makes things much easier for all involved.

 

[windycty]

"Crawdaddy, the IBT must surely realize that they've already lost the NJ pilots with over 82% sending in cards stating that they want to be represented by NJASAP"

njw, you should know better than to post a statement like this and twisting the words to meet an agenda. by sending in a card the netjets pilots were not saying that they wanted to be represented by njasap. the sending in of the card was only to signify that the pilot wanted a choice in who would represent them.

 

[netjetwife]

WC, the process you're describing applies to choosing representation when a group first organizes. This situation is different. I posted only factual information, but you don't have to take my word for it... Read it for yourself; it specifically says: " This card is to serve as notification to the National Mediation Board that I am a NetJets pilot, and I desire to be represented by the NetJets Association of Shared Aircraft Pilots (NJASAP) for the purpose of Collective Bargaining." http://njasap.com/library/auth_card.pdf

Who's blowing smoke, Windy? (pun intended) You should know better than to post a statement like this accusing me of twisting words to meet an agenda... I have too much integrity for that, nor is it even necessary. What agenda?! The NJA pilots have already spoken loud and clear by sending in their cards and they will do it again in an official referendum per their agreement with the IBT.

Personally, I think the cards were enough and certainly would have expedited matters. However, it must be noted that it is financially in the Teamsters' interest to take more time. Now that seems more like an agenda related to this process. After all, the authorization cards were mailed in by the NJ pilots in an undeniably overwhelming show of support for NJASAP. I share the majority opinion that they're ready to solo. NJW

 

[gutshotdraw]

Saying an 'in-house union is more appealing than the Teamsters' to the NJI pilots is like saying dying of a heart attack is more appealing than dying of cancer. Please respect our right of self-determination and concentrate on your own issues!

Yankee, get used to it amigo. Integration is now inevitable and the fact the truckers will be out of the picture does make it far more platable to most. Better we convince our management to allow creation of a committee to represent our group in negotiations of the final integration agreement.