IBT 1108 Attempts to take NJASAP funds

[netjetwife]

Correction: There definitely was an attempt to steal. The (fired) 1108 bookkeeper, only Union staff member not going with NJASAP, had lied to the (then) 1108 President (a NJ pilot) about paying the NJ bills. My husband, a transition team member owed reimbursement for expenses, wondered for days if he'd see any money. He would not have been paid back if the (then) 1108 Treasurer had not discovered the mishandling of funds and corrected the situation. The bank cooperated with NJ leaders and stop-orders were placed because money was being misdirected. Bill Moore was calling the shots and he led astray the FltOps leaders as well as the bookkeeper. The entire mess is regrettable and I had hoped that Greg Rountree's post would have provided an end to the conversation here. Slow, I suggest that you, and others who share your viewpoint, re-read it.

I am very sorry that this ever happened. I am saddened that the two FltOps leaders didn't trust the NJ pilots who had never let them down and who had bent over backwards to help them. I find it awful that they believed illogical lies from BM and allowed themselves to be used in a revengeful power-play against their fellow frac pilots. It is a shame that some of the FltOps pilots have made a bad situation worse by falsely (adding insult to injury) accusing the NJ leaders of wrongdoing when they were actually the only signers to the Separation Agreement following the rules all had agreed to months earlier.

I do not regret that I have acted from my heart in offering support to both pilotgroups. I am not sorry that I have followed my conscience in calling for fairness, old-fashioned morality, and due process. I do not think it is wrong to remind readers that the money in the 1108 account had been put there by the NJ pilots and was willingly being left behind in sincere hopes that it would be used to obtain a fair contract for the Options pilots.

I fully understand that good people can make bad mistakes when they trust the wrong person. I think it should be apparent to all that that is what happened in this case and I apologize for not making that observation in my first post on the subject. I am sorry that I assumed that others were being mindful of that fact.

With a heavy heart,
Netjetwife

 

[slowjet]

Pervis, Netjets wife,

Both parties had the idea that the other party was going to back out of the deal. Your NJASAP is not as innocent as you think. If you live in a glass house- do not throw rocks.

The IBT had reason to act the way they did and have the two falsely accused pilots move to protect the agreed money that was supposed to stay for the IBT- AS AGREED. As of now, all parties have thier agreed upon money.

Do you see any threads of the IBT or FLOPS pilots making accusations against the NJASAP or Netjets pilot- NO! Nobody was trying to steal anything. You can say that all day if you wish. It was jsut a matter of taking CONTROL of the funds to protect it and somebody at NJASAP got upset over that and made an accusation. By the way, you really think two people in a very public forum will be so stupid to think they could get away with stealing money in their own names. Get real!

I happen to know one of the accused. I trust him with my life. This accusation (no due process what-so-ever) was very irresponsible. I just hope it does not hurt the Flight Options pilot group trying to land a first contract with a corrupt management team.

You have your money, so please leave us alone so we can get on with what we richly deserve- an industry standard contract- and my job back.

The attack on these two pilots was very shameful.
Again, who is going to apologize when all of this is said and done and it is proven there was no wrong-doing?

Enough said.

 

[CA1900]

(I guess this thread's not going to die just yet...)

Both parties had the idea that the other party was going to back out of the deal. Your NJASAP is not as innocent as you think.

We had people watching because we were concerned that IBT--not 1108--was going to try to screw up this deal. Which is exactly what they attempted to do.

The IBT had reason to act the way they did and have the two falsely accused pilots move...

They aren't falsely accused -- they were in the bank, holding the falsified paperwork. They were willing accomplices to a crime. Misdirected by Bill Moore? Very likely. Didn't know it was a crime? Again, very likely. But ignorance of the law isn't an excuse; they were still accomplices.

...to protect the agreed money that was supposed to stay for the IBT- AS AGREED. As of now, all parties have thier agreed upon money.

They have their money because we stopped the illegal transaction in its tracks.

Do you see any threads of the IBT or FLOPS pilots making accusations against the NJASAP or Netjets pilot- NO! Nobody was trying to steal anything.

Are you kidding? There are accusations in this very thread suggesting that very thing. We weren't the ones who let Bill Moore in the back door, and handed over a checking belonging to 1108 in a darkened office, without the knowledge or consent of the leadership in charge that day.

You can say that all day if you wish. It was jsut a matter of taking CONTROL of the funds to protect it and somebody at NJASAP got upset over that and made an accusation.

The changeover was scheduled to take place on July 11th. Sneaking money out the back door, in a darkened office, with someone that our own security had been instructed not to let in the building, and then running to the bank with illegitimate paperwork, is collusion.

By the way, you really think two people in a very public forum will be so stupid to think they could get away with stealing money in their own names. Get real!

I didn't until they were seen trying to do exactly that.

What they did was improper, and illegal. As has been explained repeatedly, Hoffa does not have the legal authority to declare the local in trusteeship.

(Yeah, options_slave, I know: "Says you." Says the RLA, too.)

This accusation (no due process what-so-ever) was very irresponsible.

What's irresponsible is trusting Bill Moore with your local.

You have your money, so please leave us alone...

We tried to leave you alone. You swiped our checkbook while we were packing up, and gave us the finger, saying we were going to steal from you if you didn't do that! It was--and is--preposterous and insulting. You took a thug's word over a fellow pilot's. That's the really sad part.

...so we can get on with what we richly deserve- an industry standard contract- and my job back.

I genuinely hope you get it. The real tragedy here is that because IBT was given trusteeship if your local, your leadership does not have control anymore, and that's only going to hurt your progress and delay things further. Your pilot group has been robbed of its autonomy. I hope you can get out of trusteeship quickly; I mean that.

 

[netjetwife]

Slow, no rocks from me; only a call for fairness and common sense. Explaining that a breach of trust occurred which led to the Separation Agreement being violated is not making false accusations. It is keeping the pilotgroups informed. Ironically you have provided an example of unfair/untrue insinuations with your regrettable aspersion against NJASAP: "Your NJASAP is not as innocent as you think". I beg to differ and I certainly have the requisite insight to do so. You seem not to understand that NJASAP operated separately on the donations (above their dues) the NJ pilots had eagerly provided to accomplish their goal of becoming an independent, in-house Union/Association.

I stress again that the NJ pilots are the only party to the Agreement that honored it continuously. They worked hard to make sure the FltOps pilots were left in good shape and maintained strict adherence to the legal and open handling of the money they had amassed from their savings and were willingly and graciously leaving behind for the Options pilotgroup. IBT rules notwithstanding, the morally unfair irony of having to borrow your own money should be duly noted by all. Yet that is all the NJ pilots had asked for. The slightest hint that they were underhanded is grossly unfair and shamefully wrong because there is no basis for it. It should be clear to everyone that B M/IBT lied to good men who made the mistake of believing him. That in a nutshell is what happened, as Greg Rountree, then-acting 1108 President, explained--in a personal post.

As a final observation, it is both a relief and a pleasure to note the camaraderie which has flowed back and forth between the two pilotgroups in spite of what happened under Bill Moore's influence. I firmly believe that the majority of pilots place blame directly on the "greedy landlord" and not on the former room-mates. NJW

 

[B19 Flyer]

Slow, no rocks from me; only a call for fairness and common sense. Explaining that a breach of trust occurred which led to the Separation Agreement being violated is not making false accusations. It is keeping the pilotgroups informed. Ironically you have provided an example of unfair/untrue insinuations with your regrettable aspersion against NJASAP: "Your NJASAP is not as innocent as you think". I beg to differ and I certainly have the requisite insight to do so. You seem not to understand that NJASAP operated separately on the donations (above their dues) the NJ pilots had eagerly provided to accomplish their goal of becoming an independent, in-house Union/Association.

I stress again that the NJ pilots are the only party to the Agreement that honored it continuously. They worked hard to make sure the FltOps pilots were left in good shape and maintained strict adherence to the legal and open handling of the money they had amassed from their savings and were willingly and graciously leaving behind for the Options pilotgroup. IBT rules notwithstanding, the morally unfair irony of having to borrow your own money should be duly noted by all. Yet that is all the NJ pilots had asked for. The slightest hint that they were underhanded is grossly unfair and shamefully wrong because there is no basis for it. It should be clear to everyone that B M/IBT lied to good men who made the mistake of believing him. That in a nutshell is what happened, as Greg Rountree, then-acting 1108 President, explained--in a personal post.

As a final observation, it is both a relief and a pleasure to note the camaraderie which has flowed back and forth between the two pilotgroups in spite of what happened under Bill Moore's influence. I firmly believe that the majority of pilots place blame directly on the "greedy landlord" and not on the former room-mates. NJW

I understand your husband is a union leader, but I don't understand how he tolerates all this percieved "inside" information being posted by you on public message boards.

What you post can only be from his opinions as told to you as you are not an employee or personally involved in union activities.

As an example, as a non-employee how would you have an opinion about the line I highlighted in red? That opinion could have only come from your husband and regurgitated by you, therefore it's his opinion. If I was in his shoes, I certainly wouldn't want an opinion like that published on a public message board, whether it was true or not.

So, as you bash certain personalities and publically post certain opinions, it must be clear to all on this board that your words are a direct reflection of your husband's views.

Even if I agreed with you, (which would never happen) it would creep me out to no end that the wife of my union leadership publically posts information that could only come from her husband, therefore they must be his thoughts.

Are there not confidentiality rules of some type? I think it's a little strange that you post like you do considering you don't work at NJ and really shouldn't have any "inside" union information.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Maybe it's not for you to understand...

 

[slowjet]

Again, no one tried to steal YOUR money. If there was an attempt, that is up to law enforcement to investigate, arrest, and a court to convict- NOT YOU ON A PUBLIC FORUM.
Enough already. You're accusations are false and DONE!!!!!!

 

[steelersrule74]

well, i was content with the points I made and satisfied to let the thread work it's way down the list.

ahhh, but it seems that to some such as Slow - it was not crystal clear.

2 big issues here. The 2 executive board members acted rashly by attempting to divert 1108 funds from the authorized accounts into secret accounts the local president and sec/treas had no access to.

spin it how you want, that's stealing. If they had simply been transparent and established new accounts in cleveland for the purpose of conducting 1108 business with full knowledge of the board the deal would have been completed on the 11th and all would be well. the fact they had to move in secrecy shows the intent to mislead and in my opinion steal the dues so the IBT could back out of the agreement.

The real issue for me personally however is the motivation. Your current president and sec/treas for some reason thought the pilots at NJA were no longer trustworthy or someone you can do business with. They apparently thought they must 'protect' our dues money (and it was NJA dues money both in name and intent).

So let me make it very plain. I wish FLOPS pilots all the success in the world. I sincerely hope you get an industry leading contract. however, as long as MS, AM and Mr. Moore are in the picture that's the extent of my involvement in your fight. I will not work with or for individuals who think we are not trustworthy. Individuals who came to that conclusion based solely on the words of Mr. Moore and without a shred of evidence or behavior in the past to support it.

I will certainly not tell the pilots at FLOPS what they should or shouldn't do - but I hope I'm being clear about what I and my fellow pilots at NJA will do. I simply will not have any relationship with these men.

Good luck in your fight. Remember, it's all in the hands of FLOPS pilots now. share no credit for success with others and equally important, accept all blame if you fail........

 

[netjetwife]

Posts like yours, Steelerfan, just reinforce the theory (Tree's posted insight) that BM was determined to destroy the relationship between the two pilotgroups. While I recognize that it's a normal reaction to have, I hope that the show of camaraderie we have also seen here will prevail in the end. After all, the NJ pilots had their Fab 5 so we should know that growing pains are to be expected as a group moves from apathy to full participation from the pilots and their families.

General observation from a member of 2 boards: Perhaps the NJ folks see things more clearly because we have more info available to us (pilots and spouses) on the topic than the Options pilots do? I don't know what has been reported on their board, but I do note and appreciate that the former President of 1108 posted an explanation of the events. The current President has not posted here yet. It is a StrongUnion tradition to stay informed and form an opinion (spouses are encouraged to, as well) which is reflected on the NJ board (and sometimes here) for all to read. I hope that the Options pilots and spouses have that same access to communication because it is necessary for success. The SU leaders worked hard to develop a communication infrastructure with programs like the Do You Know. I hope for the sake of the Options group that they have something similar. An informed group of pilots, and spouses who support them, is an asset as important as money in the bank. Good luck to both sides! NJW

 

[slowjet]

I'll say it once more, it is not YOUR place to accuse and convict on a public forum without any formal investigation from a law enforcement official. Due process was completely ignored.
This issue is done.

 

[NJAPLT]

I actually think this discussion is healthy for your pilot group. Any scumbag actions from your union leadership should not be hidden from your pilot group, but instead brought into the public for your pilots to know about. If you agree or disagree with those actions is not the issue, the issue is that these things happened and that you have the right to know about them. This incident demonstrates that any future shady actions will be under a spotlight, and hopefully that knowledge will prevent more unethical incidents by your leadership.

It's good for our group to know about the money grab too. It gives me confidence that the NJASAP and the NJ IBT1108 leadership was watching our backs during this transition, and gives me even more trust in this group to lead us in the future.

This event is also important for any joint ventures between the IBT1108 and the NJASAP, one of the "selling" points that was mentioned to the NJ pilot group before the NJASAP/IBT1108 vote. The Nj pilot group was told that we could still assist the Flops pilots during their contract struggle and enforcement afterwards. Now that these actions have come into the light, it makes it clear to our pilot group that they have to be very careful when considering any joint ventures, at least with the current 1108 leadership in place.

Moral support and technical help should still be given to your organization if asked for. While you guys will sink or swim on your own, it never hurts to ask the lifeguard for a swimming lesson first.

Good luck with your contract guys. The NJASAP pilots wish you the best in your negotiations for a livable wage and a fair contract. The anger is directed at the National IBT and those who were deceived/colaborated with them, not the rank and file pilots of Flight Options.

 

[netjetwife]

I actually think this discussion is healthy for your pilot group. ... If you agree or disagree with those actions is not the issue, the issue is that these things happened and that you have the right to know about them. Good point. There's also a court of public opinion to which we all belong. Business ethics like honoring an Agreement and old-fashioned morality like trusting a reputable partner can certainly be discussed and opinions formed while still recognizing that the legality of a person's actions will be decided in the legal arena. ...

Moral support and technical help should still be given to your organization if asked for. Agreed. While you guys will sink or swim on your own, it never hurts to ask the lifeguard for a swimming lesson first. Nor does it hurt to take the word of locals who know the currents well and have learned thru experience where the dangerous undertow is and how best to avoid it.

Good luck with your contract guys. The NJASAP pilots wish you the best in your negotiations for a livable wage and a fair contract. The anger is directed at the National IBT and those who were deceived/colaborated with them, not the rank and file pilots of Flight Options.

This final point in you post, NJAPLT, bears repeating and I've been glad to see it stressed here by NJ pilots.

 

[TurboHonda]

I actually think this discussion is healthy for your pilot group. Any scumbag actions from your union leadership should not be hidden from your pilot group, but instead brought into the public for your pilots to know about. If you agree or disagree with those actions is not the issue, the issue is that these things happened and that you have the right to know about them. This incident demonstrates that any future shady actions will be under a spotlight, and hopefully that knowledge will prevent more unethical incidents by your leadership.

It's good for our group to know about the money grab too. It gives me confidence that the NJASAP and the NJ IBT1108 leadership was watching our backs during this transition, and gives me even more trust in this group to lead us in the future.

This event is also important for any joint ventures between the IBT1108 and the NJASAP, one of the "selling" points that was mentioned to the NJ pilot group before the NJASAP/IBT1108 vote. The Nj pilot group was told that we could still assist the Flops pilots during their contract struggle and enforcement afterwards. Now that these actions have come into the light, it makes it clear to our pilot group that they have to be very careful when considering any joint ventures, at least with the current 1108 leadership in place.

Moral support and technical help should still be given to your organization if asked for. While you guys will sink or swim on your own, it never hurts to ask the lifeguard for a swimming lesson first.

Good luck with your contract guys. The NJASAP pilots wish you the best in your negotiations for a livable wage and a fair contract. The anger is directed at the National IBT and those who were deceived/colaborated with them, not the rank and file pilots of Flight Options.

Do you really know what the hell you’re talking about? You are obviously a child of the 21st century. You want to try every rumor in the court of uninformed public opinion.

Has it occurred to you that our leaders have been advised by legal counsel to refrain from responding to ignorant drivel like yours? What we have here are good and honorable men caught up in a feeding frenzy of lies, innuendos, and ignorant smut. Like I said in a previous post, the truth will reveal itself.

Your attempt to portray yourself as a caring and unbiased person needs a little work.

Forgive me if I don’t turn to you for moral support and technical help.

 

[CA1900]

Has it occurred to you that our leaders have been advised by legal counsel to refrain from responding to ignorant drivel like yours?

Would that be the very same "legal counsel" that advised them to break the law and that drew up the illegitimate trusteeship paperwork in the first place?

Your attempt to portray yourself as a caring and unbiased person needs a little work.

A lot of us do care about your situation and wanted to help. That's what makes that doublecross all the more hateful.

To reiterate what steelersrule said:

the fact they had to move in secrecy shows the intent to mislead...

If this were a legitimate transaction and a genuine trusteeship, Bill Moore wouldn't have had any reason to swipe the check in a darkened office after sneaking in the back door. He could have walked right to the front door, showed legitimate trusteeship paperwork, and walked right past the security guard we set up to keep undesirables like Moore out.

But it wasn't legitimate paperwork. It was generated solely for the purpose of misleading the banks. It wouldn't have survived the light of day, so it was done in secret in a back room of the local, without the knowledge of the people that were in charge of it that day. You could have waited the four days we agreed upon, but instead, your guys tried to seize financial control early.

It was the moral equivalent of forging a check and emptying your parents' checking account, because you're paranoid that they might write you out of their will!

 

[netjetwife]

Turbo, thanks for the reminder that your leaders may have been advised by legal counsel not to respond at this time. I apologize that I lost sight of that consideration in my interest to hear both sides. Guys please overlook my comment about the current 1108 President not posting here yet. I'd delete it if I could....:0

Sad to say, if one of Moore's goals in telling lies about the NJ leadership was to drive a wedge between the two pilotgroups (which seems very likely) this sniping at one another can certainly create an atmosphere where that is possible. Hopefully, we'll all steer clear of that trap.

 

[NJAPLT]

So they can't talk about what they did, but it was totally above board? Huh?

At the end of the day, I doubt that any charges will be filed, but that is not the issue in my mind. The issue is one of honor, trust and living up to your agreements.

I believe that this was a money grab and a scumbag move by the National IBT, and the 1108 elect participants were either willing partners or were fooled into it. I will stand by my belief that this was a scumbag move done under the radar of the legit 1108 leadership at the time. Actions made in dark rooms are rarely ethical, and I consider them scumbag actions, even if the people who did them are normally very ethical at other times in other situations.

Turbohonda, I understand you see the same actions as totally legit, and while I do not understand why you think this, I respect you for defending that position.

Just to recap, you believe that the IBT national's lawyers ensured everything was both legal and ethical before they took those actions. Am I correct?

Does the paperwork not being filed, the incorrect date on them, and bypassing the 1108 leadership in place at the time constitute a necessary action your leaders elect took, a simple error, or a dishonest move?

If you want to get an unbiased opinion, I don't think you should talk to any NJ pilot, myself included and I make no claim that I am unbiased. Those Flops pilots who were also involved are biased also, so try to keep that in mind when your read there explanations of the events that occurred and why they undertook them.

I see as all of the NJ pilots as the intended victims of the last minute shenanigans that occurred. I'm just calling those actions as I see them, bias and all. Please feel free to disagree with me.

Even with all of this, I still see Flops, Flexjet, Citation Shares, and the many others as brother (and sister) pilots. We are all doing the same basic job, and should support each other in our quests for a good job, fair work rules, and pay commensurate with the responsibility that is placed on our shoulders every day.

No matter if a group is represented by a union or not, or how we feel about the leadership of any particular group, I think this is something we can all agree on.

 

[TurboHonda]

Turbo, thanks for the reminder that your leaders may have been advised by legal counsel not to respond at this time. I apologize that I lost sight of that consideration in my interest to hear both sides. Guys please overlook my comment about the current 1108 President not posting here yet. I'd delete it if I could....:0

Sad to say, if one of Moore's goals in telling lies about the NJ leadership was to drive a wedge between the two pilotgroups (which seems very likely) this sniping at one another can certainly create an atmosphere where that is possible. Hopefully, we'll all steer clear of that trap.

Thank you.

 

[netjetwife]

Turbo, you and your fellow pilots are welcome to my support in these difficult days. Best Wishes! NJW

 

[cougar12]

Mend the Fences

OK everyone can we just let this calm down and let things workout. I understand that the leadership on both sides were shocked and feelings were hurt by the actions and alleged actions of each other. Asking for us to remove our leadership or demanding that they resign is completely inappropriate.
We trust our FO leadership as much as the NJ pilot group trusts theirs. I have stated previously that we will make sure the agreement is fulfilled. I know these two guys personally and they have proved that they are of the highest character and integrity, and they were shocked when they received the information from the IBT. Is it possible that our leadership reacted on some wrong information? Sure it is. They are relatively new in dealing with the IBT compared to NJ leadership. Not to mention a little scared that that the 1108 would be broke at the end of the month. So if they over reacted, I think they deserve a break. No one likes to have their integrity questioned.
All of us know we need the support of NJ pilots and their leadership they have been though all of this before and are a great source of wisdom and knowledge. So lets get the fences mended and move forward to raise the bar!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Turbo, thanks for the reminder that your leaders may have been advised by legal counsel not to respond at this time. I apologize that I lost sight of that consideration in my interest to hear both sides. Guys please overlook my comment about the current 1108 President not posting here yet. I'd delete it if I could....:0

OK, their leaders have been advised, but clearly you have information and opinions from the inside that you don't mind posting on a public message board.

Sad to say, if one of Moore's goals in telling lies about the NJ leadership was to drive a wedge between the two pilotgroups (which seems very likely) this sniping at one another can certainly create an atmosphere where that is possible.

Hopefully, we'll all steer clear of that trap.

The you go with this "we" stuff again. Union leadership's opinion? (You're husband?)

Still, as you don't work there you only get one view to form your opinions on, that of your husband.

Your posts must be a reflection of his opinion. Do the pilots represented by the union really want you posting their leadership's opinion on this board knowing what the source of the information is?