IBT 1108 Attempts to take NJASAP funds

[Voice Of Reason]

Voice,

You are going to find out it was ALL Strong Union that got us what we have ... not IBT.

If it were up to the IBT I would be making about 50k less than I do right now. I'd be making less than you are right now.

But all that doesn't matter....they operated under IBT1108, and that is who has claim to that money. Usair ALPA (as little as Alpa does) couldn't just take all the ALPA dues with them because they want to start a new union. The money stays with ALPA (even though NATIONAL Alpa may have done nothing to earn it). That's the name of the game when you JOIN a national union and take a PLEDGE to keep it... I'm far from a union henchman as you all know,...but this is a pretty simple concept...Just something the NJASAP leaders neglected to think about when they decided to prance off.

 

[CA1900]

I so predicted that NJs was up to no good from the beginning...

If you really believe that, that's pathetic. When you guys track down the donation I made to help your terminated pilots, please send it back to me.

NJs pilots claiming how they "left Flops pilots with 'all this' money." In the SAME POSTS they are claiming Flops pilots stole said money....

Pay attention: We did leave you guys a bunch of money. Our written agreement with 1108 involved NJASAP receiving the money from the June dues check from NetJets to fund our new local, and repaying it monthly. That physical check was smuggled out of the building without the knowledge or consent of the leadership, and brought to two banks under falsified, illegal documents claiming the local was under the control of a trustee (Bill M.). It wasn't until our leadership investigated why the NetJets dues check hadn't arrived that this all came to light.

UNLESS, of course, NJs guys were planning to divert it away. That is the ONLY ONLY reason why this is being made an issue...otherwise why would they care?

We care because we made an agreement with 1108, on which they attempted to renege. The new "leadership" of 1108 tried to keep all the money, including the funds that were supposed to be loaned to NJASAP, leaving us with nothing. We made an agreement, and we will do everything necessary to ensure 1108 honors it.

Another thing....when you MORONS ...

Ahhhh, personal attacks. Lovely.

... you voted away all of the money that went to that NATIONAL union, as well as all of its protections

Yes, we did. The money that went to the IBT will probably never be seen again, by us or by Flight Options pilots. But we're not talking about those funds -- we're talking about local funds, which 1108 agreed to send to NJASAP as a loan.

I hope NJASAP comes equipped with a big "national" (lol) legal fund ...

Our staff lawyers and leadership are quite sharp. They're the reason this ploy was thwarted in the first place. We'll be fine.
And despite your sarcastic tone, I'm going to offer you a bit of advice: DO NOT depend on the IBT to fund your legal battles. They've done exactly nothing for us with our money, which is why we're leaving. Build and maintain your local treasury, if/when you get control of it again. As you'll see once you take the blinders of unquestioning support off, deferring to the IBT will get you burned.

... to defend what is SEEMS to be the interception of attempted theft on the NJ's side, NOT by Flops, the actual MEMBERS of IBT which holds the money.

So... 1108 stole the treasury before we could? Are you kidding?

I don't think that'll sound as good in court as you think it sounds here.

Gotta love karma.

Truer words were never spoken.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

CA1900, I respect your usually even-keeled posts, and do not include you in the likely vocal minority of NJs pilot "morons" that set the bad tone for the majority's reputation so often on FlightInfo.
IF what you said is true about the side agreement for June dues (which would be EXTREMELY small in comparison to the accusations of theft of $600k to a mil thrown around here), then that small amount should be rectified.
HOWEVER--that does not warrant or make acceptable the bs that has been thrown around on this thread, and the horrible ramifications that result from approaching it in this manner.
The bottom line is most NJs pilots here feel they should be taking ALL of the IBT 1108 money with them to start a new union. It just doesn't work that way, and the fact that the leaders didn't spell that out for them (though it should be common sense) is what is driving this...NOT some alleged "theft" of the organization's $ by the organization itself.

 

[Pervis]

.The bottom line is most NJs pilots here feel they should be taking ALL of the IBT 1108 money with them to start a new union. It just doesn't work that way, and the fact that the leaders didn't spell that out for them (though it should be common sense) is what is driving this...NOT some alleged "theft" of the organization's $ by the organization itself.

Were you born that way or does it take practice being such a moron? We knew exactly what decertifying would cost, and felt the 1.2+ million we were sending the IBT every year would more than make up for it. We still do.

This was going so well, with 13+ pages and good discussion, in spite of the occasional emotional responses. Now this from Reason. What next-Skanza and B19?

 

[TurboHonda]

.........
I have no more to say on the subject..........

Promises promises. This thread has reached the point of being comical. I'm sure that FLOPS management is loving it. B19 is getting a well deserved rest. We're doing his dirty work for him.

I know the 2 MEC members that are taking undeserved abuse. I've trusted them with my career and my family's well being for a long time now, and that's not going to change.

Eventually the truth will reveal itself. Meanwhile this reminds me of slicing baloney. No matter how thin it's sliced, there's always two sides.

 

[NJAPLT]

The NJASAP and the IBT signed the transition agreement, and the NJASAP relied on the loan that was agreed upon to set up and transition equipment and staff to our new union. If Hoffa had been successful with "hiding" the funds from the current (as of that week-the "old" MEC), the MEC would have been unable to execute the agreement. The New MEC might even have had a case for voiding the transition, claiming that the NJASAP was not a viable union due to financial issues.

Going to court to make the IBT execute what what the NJASAP and IBT already agreed to would have only benefitted the lawyers, and the IBT, not the NJASAP, as the NJASAP would have to take donations again just to buy the legal help we would have needed.

The story had been rehashed enough. Due to the safeguards the old MEC put in place, the attempt by Hoffa and his crew was stopped. Law enforcement is investigating, but in the end I suspect because the money grab was not successful, the prosecutor will not prosecute.

The biggest issue in this incident is about ethics. The Teamsters national produced a false document alleging that they had taken the union into trusteeship. This was known to be false by the teamsters national, as they did not file the document with any entity, but used them to gain access to bank accounts.

The national IBT then had 2 of the Flops senior union leaders (who were not yet appointed) take this document and attempt to get funds out of an account they were not yet authorized to access.

If the Flops leadership was fooled by the national IBT, and did really not know what they were doing was both immoral and illegal, then I guess they learned a valuable lesson. If they did recognize it was illegal, immoral and did it anyway, it shows a serious lack of judgement.

Except for cooperating with any law enforcement inquiry, and sending the monthly payments as agreed with, the former 1108 NJA pilots have no control or influence with the remaining 1108 pilots. If they want to stick their head in the sand and believe nothing immoral went on during the incident, that is their right. If they want to give the benefit of the doubt to their MEC that the National fooled them, that is also their right. If the Flops pilots think that the attempted money grab was illegal and immoral but supported it anyway, that is also fine.

The 1108 and the NJASAP has many common interests, but due to this incident it will be now much harder for the NJASAP to work with the 1108.

A real apology to the NJA pilots by those involved is warranted, but at a minimum a formal censure toward all of those who participated by the uninvolved MEC members would at least help our two groups get back on track cooperating on our common issues. I believe it would also set the tone for the Flops pilots reign at the 1108.

 

[Starman]

The bookkeeper (who was offered a job at Cleveland) skulking around in the back office in the dark handing a check over to Bill Moore. Bill Moore illegally taking said check off premises.

Two Flight Options pilots presenting themselves to a bank official as something that they weren't (President and Treasurer) in order to try and deposit said check.

The Airline Division being totally in the dark about any "Trusteeship"

Neither the President nor the Executive Board of the Local was notified of any "Trusteeship."

The DOL not being notified of any "Trusteeship"

Yep - this sounds just like a legal action.

Spin this crap anyway you want boys. This was deceitful, unethical and illegal. Hopefully all 4 of them will get to have "Convicted Felon" added to their resume.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

BINGO...exactly as I suspected...

Oh, the tangled web the NJASAP leadership spins....



There was NO monies stolen. Period. All that happened was a matter of PROTOCOL. All that occurred was that all the bank accounts that were part of the 1108 had the signature cards with the old net jets leadership pilots' names removed and the new 1108 leadership's names - Flight Options pilots -added. Period.

What is interesting to note is that there was indeed "hidden" accounts found by the Flight Options leadership, including one account with a half a million dollars in it, and there is evidence that IBT 1108 funds were being used to fund NJASAP organizing activities including airline fares, etc. and funded with IBT 1108 monies. THAT would be illegal.

What's really happened is that the NJASAP pilots lost access to all of the 1108 funds before they could do any "maneuvering" of any such funds and it pissed them off that they couldn't do anything about it.

There is a matter of a $377,000 LOAN from the IBT 1108 to the NJASAP pilot leadership that was to cover the dues payments from Net Jets, that would be paid back in 12 months to the IBT 1108, and that can and will be available according to the agreement. That is the ONLY money that could be considered belonging to the NJASAP group, but it doesn't really, as it's only a LOAN, and that will still be allowed to happen, under the CONTROL of the 1108 new leadership. When the proper documentation is handled, I'm sure the money will be made available.

The bottom line is this: NOTHING was stolen. Not a dime. ALL such monies belong to the IBT 1108. Net Jets pilots are no longer part of the 1108. They no longer have any rights to any bank accounts. The only thing that was "taken" was CONTROL of the money, done so as the 1108 Chairman M.S. already stated, was done under the authority and direction of the IBT Corporate offices, who made sure the "change of command" of the money was done properly. This was done for many reasons, including the following:

1. Duh. Control. The monies had to be put under the control of the incoming leadership, and taken away from the outgoing leadership who were no longer a part of the Local.

2. Well over 5 digits in "outstanding checks" by the "old" leadership for "expenses".

3. The "general fund" was pretty much depleted. Why is being investigated.

4. A missing SIGNED check for an amount well into 5 digits. No one at the Columbus office seems to know where it is.

5. On-going expenses. Payroll, bills need to be paid, the incoming leadership obviously needed access and permissions on the accounts to make that happen.



The CURRENT IBT 1108 leadership HAD to take control of the funds belonging to THEIR pilot group.

If the NJASAP leadership thinks some of that money is theirs, then they are free to have their lawyers straighten that out, but it's pretty cut and dry and legally that money stays with the Local whether the NJASAP leadership likes it or not.

There is no doubt that the IBT 1108 current leadership welcomes any legal investigations into any of this and as usual, they will operate legally and cooperate with any legal investigations.

It is sad that the NJASAP leadership or their private and privy peanut gallery (or their wives?) had to come and air their dirty laundry under fake names and make false statements and accusations in the public forum about the Flight Options leadership knowing that they have no facts to back up such false claims, trying to create animocity between the NJ and FO pilot groups as well as attempting to create doubt amongst the FO pilot group about their leadership. The timing of all of this during the critical end-phase of negotiations with the FO pilots and their company when solidarity is precariously important is also appauling. And I hear there IS an investigation proceeding regarding certain activities and ATTEMPTED activites from the NJASAP leadership regarding such expenses that were used and paid for by the Net Jets 1108 leadership for NJASAP organizing activities. This would of course be illegal spending.

Such attempts by the NJASAP leadership to create such doubt about the FO leadership may backfire and could prove that there may be reason to doubt the NJASAP pilot leadership and their ways of handling money.

If there was any criminal activities done regarding this topic, I would be willing to bet that the Flight Options 1108 MEC is not worried about anything on their end, they took control of the money as per the direction of the IBT Corporate office with their authority and attornie's direction, and what they did was the same thing the Net Jets NJASAP leadership would have done if the situation was reversed. The leadership has an obligation to the Local and its members to protect the Local's money. To suggest ANYTHING less than that is menutia and spoken in anger, because the NJASAP leadership didn't get to do what "they" wanted to do with the monies that "they" no longer have any legal right to. If they think they do.... they are more than welcome to prove it in court.

Having said that, I personally am extremely thankful for everything the Net Jets pilot group - their leadership and the entire pilot group - has done to assist the flight options pilot group in organizing and the help we have gained through support and solidarity toward our own pilot group achieving our first contract. I personally know every member of the FO MEC and know that they would never do anything illegal and that they do not wish to take anything that isn't "theirs". The only thing taken was control of the money. If there is money to be given to the Net Jets pilots, it will be given to them in the only way that it should be done: Legally and transparently.

We all are on the same team and we all should be helping each other to make the industry as safe as possible and as profitable as possible for everyone at the negotiations table. Making baseless accusations about the transfer of ownership of bank accounts during the departure of the Net Jets pilots from the Local 1108 does nothing but create unneeded strife.

And Grizz - I still got YOUR back, and would do anything I could to help a Net Jets pilot. Your implication is ridiculous. We are all on the same team, here.

 

[Pervis]

Promises promises. This thread has reached the point of being comical. I'm sure that FLOPS management is loving it. B19 is getting a well deserved rest. We're doing his dirty work for him.

I know the 2 MEC members that are taking undeserved abuse. I've trusted them with my career and my family's well being for a long time now, and that's not going to change.

Eventually the truth will reveal itself. Meanwhile this reminds me of slicing baloney. No matter how thin it's sliced, there's always two sides.

Turbo, I can't vouch for or against your leaders in question, and all we can do is wait for the legal types to sort his out. I will say we had 5 guys we trusted with our futures for a long time, until it was clear they only had their own interests at heart. That cost us dearly.

To be honest, with what has been made public, it looks like your folks were suckered into something rather distasteful by Hoffa and his henchmen. Seems the IBT has a reputation for such tactics.

Whatever either side feels or believes, the bankers and law enforcement involved don't like what transpired. Maybe it is huge misunderstanding, but it looks shady as hell. Bottom line is the majority on both sides aren't involved directly and should not hold anything against either side. We can't fall into the trap and continue after each other's throat.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Hoffa and his henchmen. Seems the IBT has a reputation for such tactics.

Funny when I used to say that to all you NJs guys you denied it to the death....
Mad because they were a step ahead of what your thugs actually WERE up to? Ironic how it all turns around....