I can't understand the low pay

[Checks]

KickSave,

Everything you have posted is typical from someone BRAND NEW to the industry. Being a Major Airline Pilot at age 31 is very successful. I love how a CFI student states that a A320 pilot hasnt been a success. Wait until you cant even get a CFI gig or are stuck at that CFI gig for YEARS making less than poverty level before you spout off. How many checkrides and medicals have you passed? Less than five? You are a real comedian.

DISCLAIMER:
Helicopter pay has gone up but it still sucks because you get literally zero benefits from that job with much higher training costs. So any potential wanna be helo drivers should stay fixed wing.

 

[bobbysamd]

Define "success"

[M]y cousin . . . started flying at 17, was a CFI, then flew for a Regional, then got hired by United at about age 27 (10 years of flying experience into his career) about 6 years ago. He was making quite a nice salary as an A320 FO . . . . [M]y main point is that if after 16 years in the industry one has never made a decent wage, maybe one hasn't been on the right track . . . . in the same 16 year time frame. I personally will be lucky to get 1/4 of that fame and fortune myself.

Being hired by a major at age 27, no matter how long one has been flying, is a success story in and of itself. I would almost classify your cousin as a prodigy. There are tons of extremely qualified people who try for years to get on with the majors who never do. Or, if they do, it's much later than age 27. Making the majors at 31 is also a success story. Never mind the equipment to which one is assigned.

I do not believe that one can blame 911 solely for the poor state of the industry. The economy was already in the toilet - it started going that way in 2000. I remember how the stock market was already starting to auger-in three years ago to this day. 911 simply hastened it along. Not to mention that with perhaps only one exception, during a very brief period in the '60s, there never has been a pilot shortage. Airlines have had little, if any, trouble filling their cockpits.

Finally, I do not recall WifeofPilot addressing airline pilot responsibility. Airline pilots have grave responsibilities, to their passengers, to their companies, to other aircraft, and to third parties. They should be paid commensurate with their responsibility. She should attack the pay issue from that angle.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Let me make a couple of statements that assume that you beleive in the principles of a capitalist economy:

Everyone who has a job gets paid exactly what they are worth.

With or without a union, every working person negotiates their salary.

Employers and employees each have "chips" that they can use at the negotiating table: employers have salary, benefits, work rules, and what not. Employees have skills and specialized training.

Salaries are determined just like the price of any good or service in a free market. If you have skills or training that are in demand AND not a lot of other people have those same skills or training, your value will be relatively high. If not many people need your skills, or LOTS of other people have your skills, your value will be low.

Now the kicker: notice that NOWHERE is the number of years or amount of money spent on training, amount of responsibility, or difficulty of the job directly a factor in determining a salary. These things will only affect your value if they place you in a small supply of labor for which there is a large demand. This is not the case with pilots. There are TONS of qualified pilots who are willing and able to accept jobs.

The unions bargain collectively for the membership so that they can artificially tinker with the otherwise free market. A union allows you to place yourself into a smaller labor supply by joining the union. They do this by not allowing anyone to work for the airline at a wage less than what they feel they are worth. THis prevents management from tapping cheaper labor, and removes competition from the salary equation.

For an in depth view on how this affects businesses and the economy at large, I recommend Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. It is fiction, and it often takes things to logical extrememes, but I think it very clearly demonstrates why free markets should run their course. In the long run, everyone benefits.

 

[Whirlwind]

DISCLAIMER:
Helicopter pay has gone up but it still sucks because you get literally zero benefits from that job with much higher training costs. So any potential wanna be helo drivers should stay fixed wing.

Read the new contracts recently signed down in the GOM before you say that.

The starting pay has gotten downright respectable (~$45K to start), plus they now have real benefits including medical, dental, and 401K.

Training costs are indeed higher, but then so is the pay, and you can get it quicker now. (but that might change by the time you get that far)

DISCLAIMER:
I'm a helicopter pilot first, stuck-wing driver second, so I'm biased here. YMMV

Jason

 

[surfnole]

Someone's job skills are worth whatever the market will pay for their skills. The market has 2 sides; one is supply and one is demand. You complain that your husband has to accept a job for $19,000 per year.... but HE ACCEPTED THE JOB.

and from another post

Salaries are determined just like the price of any good or service in a free market

The airline industry is not a free market. Pilots are captive to their employer. I can't think of another industry where you start all over at the beginning if you lose your job.

I have read here that Eagle has a 10 year contract which s*cks. Do you think Eagle could maintain that contract if their pilots could leave at any time and receive a better salary at another airline based on their years of experience?

In a free market a captain of an RJ or 747 could expect to leave his current position and receive similar or better pay at another airline.

Would a CFO of Walmart expect to leave for Target and start over in the mail room? Would a manager for McDonalds start serving fries if he moved over to Burger King?

With a true free market, bottom feeding companies would need to raise their wages if they wanted to limit their turnover. A national union could probably accomplish the same objective.

The seniority system has its upside (300K United captain), but you all are experiencing its downside.

 

[Cardinal]

For an in depth view on how this affects businesses and the economy at large, I recommend Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. It is fiction, and it often takes things to logical extrememes, but I think it very clearly demonstrates why free markets should run their course. In the long run, everyone benefits.

Excellent post! The differences between natural and external factors are often missed. I've suggested the same wonderful book on this board for the same reasons. But be careful. The nay-sayers will assume that you gained "all your economic knowledge from a 50 year old work of fiction."

 

[metrodriver]

What really is surprising is that almost everyone here who thinks the regional wages are not that bad all have less than 1500 hrs. In other words people who haven't been teaching for 4 years at $10.000 a year, went to some company that failed a year later, flew as a fo for some commuter for 2 years and this company closed the doors, flew freight in a beat up old single or light twin starting at $1000 a month in the SFbay area, hoping for something better, another regional (another $15000 a year job) get a job flying a nice trijet for a few month for 40-50.000 a year till 9-11 hit and then the pink slips are mailed out. Even most majors start out at 22-24000 /year, so the company I flew for was not bad at starting salary, however a 10 year captain could make almost $100.000 if he did some overtime. Of course don't forget the time you spend looking for a new job after the last one disappears. Before you know it you are 10 to 15 years further after receiving your commercial license before getting on with a major, and you haven't broken $20.000/year yet. So if someone does it a lot faster, that's awesome.
I think also that responsibility should be rewarded. As a regional pilot you are being send halfway across the country in a 20 million dollar metal tube filled with people that put their trust in you. To do that you can't get sick (cough medicine triggers the drug test), can't drink a day ahead of flying, got to see a doctor once or twice a year who can tell you right then that you won't fly anymore because of some little irregularity and of course there is the yearly check ride in the sim or real plane. If you happen to draw mr a-hole who hates your guts anyway for your ride, well you might be looking for another job again. All this for 19000 and maybe up to 24000 5 years down the road. I guess there is a reason for the extremely high divorce rate among pilots. Simply because the wives find someone who is home more and brings a lot bigger paycheck to the bank, that allows them to buy an airline ticket to go somewhere nice. It's frustrating if you can't even buy an airline ticket and you're a pilot!

 

[KickSave]

KickSave,

Everything you have posted is typical from someone BRAND NEW to the industry. Being a Major Airline Pilot at age 31 is very successful. I love how a CFI student states that a A320 pilot hasnt been a success. Wait until you cant even get a CFI gig or are stuck at that CFI gig for YEARS making less than poverty level before you spout off. How many checkrides and medicals have you passed? Less than five? You are a real comedian.

DISCLAIMER:
Helicopter pay has gone up but it still sucks because you get literally zero benefits from that job with much higher training costs. So any potential wanna be helo drivers should stay fixed wing.

Whoa, time out here! I didn't mean to piss off all you salty 10,000 hour pilots by presuming so much. But Checks, if you re-read my posts, you'll see I am prepared to pay those dues you mention, I am not brainwashed to think that there is going to be some huge pilot shortage soon, but I will stand by my opinions that the airline industry is effected by some basic economic factors that won't remain the same for ever. I expect there to be -some- improvement from the -current- situation, so let me just leave it at that.


But I would correct you in that I didn't say a Major pilot at age 31 wasn't successful, I said he/she WAS succesful. I think the confusion was over Wife's statement that he never earned a good wage in his career after 16 years. If he got furloughed before he was able to collect even a year as a Major FO, then that truly sucks and I am sorry for him/her and didn't mean to imply otherwise. My point was poorly made, that for some people who have experienced this crummy timing, there are others who's timing has been perfect. I wil ltry to refrain from any further talk about the state of the industry until I am on the same level as the rest of you veterans, but my own personal experiences (via my relatives) have lead me to believe that a good career is still possible, so long as your expectations are realistic (I think mine are, for my self anyway). I could be too naieve to know any better, but I do hope all the doom and gloom sayers find some salvation soon though

Enigma, the downturns will weed out the unlucky, I'll agree there. But I also think, the weak have no chance to succeed either, eh?

 

[enigma]

With a true free market, bottom feeding companies would need to raise their wages if they wanted to limit their turnover. A national union could probably accomplish the same objective.

Surfnole, In a truly free market with an over supply of pilots, the bottom feeding companies will continue to pay according to what a pilot is willing to accept. And as long as those pilots perceive a pot of gold at rainbows end, they will continue to take bottom feeding low/no paying jobs.

Not specifically aimed at surfnole.

Have you considered that the UNION is the reason you have to start over every time you switch jobs? Management could really care less about your seniority, but ALPA worships at seniority's throne. The seniority system is what keeps the boss from promoting the boot licker instead of you.

I don't know the answer, and even though I have sometimes wished for a national union, I don't think that one is the answer. A national union could only work if it controlled every employer and potential employer of pilots. Or if it could control the supply of pilots. If the association controlled licensing not the government, then we would have some power. But as long as the military trains pilots, the union can't control the supply; and I seriously doubt that the government is just going to turn over licensing to our association.

So we either do away with the union and let everyman fend for himself, or we keep what we've got and maintain a system that rewards the lucky. For example, I know a pilot who really wanted to work for UAL, but got hired by SWA instead. Pure luck. At the time he was bummed out, now he's on top of the world.

The present system is a long way from perfect, but I don't see any way to change it. All we can do is attempt to counter some of the manure spread by the AirIncs of the world, but even if we scare off all of the civilian wannabees, the military will still train enough pilots to ensure a continuous supply. Where does that leave us? Mostly poor, with scattered rich. My appologies to the w/x guess'rs

regards,
enigma

 

[enigma]

Enigma, the downturns will weed out the unlucky, I'll agree there. But I also think, the weak have no chance to succeed either, eh?

You're linking weak to character I think. I don't think that is the determining factor. Plenty of pilots with weak character can continue as long as they are financially strong. Not to disparage any certain group, but those with: rich daddys, military retirement, career changers with a savings account, etc., can all survive regardless of their character.

As I think about the subject more, downturns really eliminate the pilot who has exhausted his bankroll getting to a decent job, then gets furloughed during the downturn. Think about pilotswifes pilot, he spend years working for very little in order to get where he got, then he got furloughed. If it weren't for a working wife, he would be out of the business, and that has nothing to do with weakness.

regards,
8N

 

[TurboS7]

I can't understand thousands of minor league baseball players and coaches that are getting paid nothing while the major league players are making big bucks. I can't understand the piano player at the bar that is playing for tips while a rock star that can only yell profanity is making millions. I can't understand why a women would leave her kids in a car in the heat and let them die, yet I see people pamper their animals like they were worth millions. The lowest paying jobs in aviation are the hardest ones and the highest paying jobs are a piece of cake. I can't understand why a pilot would leave a wonderful family to run off with a flight attendant. I can't understand why people deny the truth and run from the obivious gospel. Having witnessed the birth of my 7 children I can't understand how a doctor and mother could terminate a baby just prior to being born. We live in a crazy mixed up world the sometimes makes no sense.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Let's see now. My husband was furloughed from the majors
while in initial training. Before that worked for a commuter,
before that a charter, before that flight instructing. He has never made a decent wage since he was 17 years old.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME THAT YOU THINK THAT DOESN'T BOTHER HIM? DO YOU LIVE UNDER A ROCK? Where do you put in 16 years and don't get above 19K? Guess what? I am whining and I don't care.

1) It obviously doesn't bother him enough to leave flying and do something else for a living.
2) Your husbad was making far more than $19k flying charter but his dream is obviously with the majors so he went to 121 flying. Don't even start trying to say that 16 years got him UP TO $16K because everyone on this board knows that's plain not true. This is specious.
3) How self centered are you? You admit that you're whining and you don't care about it. Guess what, your husband loves flying and is willing to make sacrifices for it that you are evidently not prepared to make. You may be looking for us to empathize with you or just be miserable with you, but I'm not playing.

Either support your husbands career or don't. But don't come to this message board and blame pilots for doing a job that they love doing and getting market wages for it.

Frankly, your whining is offensive and your attitude is an insult to the people who sacrifice to have a job they have always dreamed of having.

 

[KickSave]

The present system is a long way from perfect, but I don't see any way to change it. All we can do is attempt to counter some of the manure spread by the AirIncs of the world, but even if we scare off all of the civilian wannabees, the military will still train enough pilots to ensure a continuous supply. Where does that leave us? Mostly poor, with scattered rich. My appologies to the w/x guess'rs

regards,
enigma

Ok, more naivete here, but do you really not see any way to change it, or just nothing that seems feasible right now? I guess what I am asking, and this is an honest question, is what would it really take to make the system more favorable? Scaring off all the civilian wannabees isn't a realsitic solution, unless you want to close down every flight school also(which might not be that far off anyway, huh?) but what would work? Perhaps a real national union? What about a new trade association that, unlike ALPA, truly represents all professional pilots and serves them well, through strength, leadership and vision? Is that just a pipe dream, or would something like that actually help? Again, I could be just to darn ignorant to know any better, but I believe every problem has a solution. Every group is only as strong as its leadership.

(Please don't think I'm suggesting anything so silly like having a national union or a strong association would change the supply and demand dynamics here that govern pay scales for regional FO's and such. I'm not. I'm more referring to things like the seniority system, duty regs, retirement, etc that seem to be less governed by simple economics and more goverened by what one can negotiate.)

I'm asking this stuff because I honestly want to understand more, what professional pilots think would help the situation, and what they would change if they could (besides the obvious

 

[TXCAP4228]

Ok, more naivete here, but do you really not see any way to change it, or just nothing that seems feasible right now? I guess what I am asking, and this is an honest question, is what would it really take to make the system more favorable? Scaring off all the civilian wannabees isn't a realsitic solution, unless you want to close down every flight school also(which might not be that far off anyway, huh?) but what would work? Perhaps a real national union? What about a new trade association that, unlike ALPA, truly represents all professional pilots and serves them well, through strength, leadership and vision? Is that just a pipe dream, or would something like that actually help? Again, I could be just to darn ignorant to know any better, but I believe every problem has a solution. Every group is only as strong as its leadership.

Here is another possible solution. Completely abolish unions.

In any other job, someone with the necessary skills could walk out of one job and into another one if there was an open position. Why can't the same be true for pilots?

The answer? Unions.

Why are your skills not portable? Because your union locks you into a seniority situaiton.

Why do regional pilots make less than mainline pilots? Unions.

Why do the newest pilots always get furloughed regardless pilot qualifications? Unions.

If I were y'all, I wouldn't be looking to unions as an answer, I would recognize them as them problem.

 

[Publishers]

unions

Now don't start saying things like that around here. The good always comes with some bad and actually your example has some truth to it. The structure of the unions is to get the most people to agree to a contract. Thus the bottom group is always getting the bottom feedings.

There are other jobs in aviation that pay more that are not airlines that the person that started this thread could do. Therefore the thinking is but this is what I want to do and why should the pay be so low.

What is also being said is that I do not want to spend my time doing something else in the interim. Now I meet pilots flying all the time that are on furlough and now flying in a corporate jet or even some King Air. They are making more than $19000 so it is possible.

The thinking that brought the person to this thinking is exactly what keeps the valuye where it is.

 

[Freight Dog]

TXCAP, easy there.....with all due respect, with 600 hours, and a private/instrument ticket, I don't think you're quite qualified to make judgment on problems in our industry, especially when it comes to pilot unions.

 

[Ben Dover]

Not a bad idea TXCAP. Bag the unions and let everyone negociate their own pay. When everything washes out, you may be surprised to see the resulting pay structure. Then let pay raises, bidding, and the like be determined by a combination of longevity and job performance like the rest of the world.

 

[TXCAP4228]

TXCAP, easy there.....with all due respect, with 600 hours, and a private/instrument ticket, I don't think you're quite qualified to make judgment on problems in our industry, especially when it comes to pilot unions.

Come on Freight dog, this is a little weak.

1) My time and certificates have nothing to do with my ability to judge this industry. You have no idea what I do for a living or what my background is. Maybe I'm an investment banker that helped create Southwest airlines. Maybe I'm in a line of work that evaluates companies for commercial lending purposes. Maybe I just have a brain that allows me to see and evaluate how the business world works - airlines or fast food places. Maybe I have a clue.

2) Pilot unions are pretty straighforward, and anyone with a brain can see how they work - and how they fail.

3) Pilot unions aren't the only unions that fail, but for several reasons they do top the list.

4) My arguments are valid until you refute the substance of them.

5) I am willing to engage you in a friendly discussion to defend what I have said if you are willing to use reason to justify a counter point. But "you don't have enough hours" is a little weak.

 

[Freight Dog]

Come on Freight dog, this is a little weak.

OK, perhaps it was a little bit.. but nothing like a healthy friendly debate.

1) My time and certificates have nothing to do with my ability to judge this industry. You have no idea what I do for a living or what my background is. Maybe I'm an investment banker that helped create Southwest airlines. Maybe I'm in a line of work that evaluates companies for commercial lending purposes. Maybe I just have a brain that allows me to see and evaluate how the business world works - airlines or fast food places. Maybe I have a clue.

It's interesting that if you are indeed in that line of work you don't seem to recognize airline managements as being a far bigger problem than pilot unions. I don't need to point out record losses, pay cuts forced on unions in order to 'save their airline' when instead the pay cuts go to pay for bonuses for management.

2) Pilot unions are pretty straighforward, and anyone with a brain can see how they work - and how they fail.

Have you seen any success stories of pilot unions? I think ALPA has done many things to improve safety that are now an industry standard. ALPA's role goes way beyond your traditional union role of simply negotiating contracts and collect dues. What do you think of B777?

3) Pilot unions aren't the only unions that fail, but for several reasons they do top the list.

Fail in what way? Pay? Work rules? It's the perception. Personally, I think ALPA dropped the ball when they allowed any new jets on regional property that weren't grandfathered, hence the current problem. It can be fixed, but it takes people/union members to make a stand. You say that pilot unions fail, and I say that pilot population fails when they are willing to sell their mother for the position to sit in the right seat of a jet which brings me to the topic of this thread. When Comair pilots went on strike in 2001, they walked for 89 days to end the second-class treatment of regional pilots by airline managements. That took cajones, and boy you gotta hand it to them for holding the line that long. Air Wisconsin continued the trend as they were ready to walk away too. Mesa dropped the ball. The eyes are on Mesaba and ASA. You see, up until fairly recently, you would come to a regional, you'd upgrade while on probation and you'd be outta there in a very short order, so of course you would see the low pay as a short-term necessary evil to get to the majors where 2nd year pay tops the top regional captain payscales. But see, that's not the case anymore, and it obviously takes time to sink in. Now, where the union comes in, ALPA national will provide you with lawyers and financial analysts to help you negotiate your contract, but the negotiating team consists of pilots at that airline. If they're willing to sell themselves short, it's not the union's fault. It's the pilot group's fault as they vote on the TA and their elected officers. Like I said, until the newcomers realize that it doesn't pay to whore themselves for jet time, you'll see this trend continue. The union is only as strong as their membership.

4) My arguments are valid until you refute the substance of them.

5) I am willing to engage you in a friendly discussion to defend what I have said if you are willing to use reason to justify a counter point. But "you don't have enough hours" is a little weak.

You mention seniority as a problem in your previous post... look at it from this perspective, we have a vested interest in well-being of our airlines. If managements had the same system in place, you wouldn't see the rape and pillage of major airlines that took place. Look at UAL for example. Think their current situation is their pilots' fault because of their pre-9/11 payscales? How about Hawaiian Airlines and Boeing successfully suing to remove their CEO? How about the outcry about AMR execs lining themselves up for multimillion dollar bonuses while asking all its employee groups to take paycuts?

Having a union is not a win for employees, but rather a failure of management. In other words, the only thing worse than having a union is NOT having one.

Some suggested reading.... Flying the Line I and II.

Your turn...

 

[KickSave]

I have a question... are there any airlines that are completely employee owned, like the way Avis Car Rental advertises they are? It seems to me that a Union is powerless to negotiate better pay when the market conditions don't warrant it, such as the current economy of the last few years. It also seems to me that it's impossible for a Union to adequately represent ALL it's members when it comes to issues of compensation, when revenues are down to to these conditions. If a 9/11 and sluggish economy makes passengers stay at home, and cost reduction is necessary, it strikes me as impossible for a group to vote for it's own common good.

As an example, if you MUST reduce labor costs, you could either ask everyone to take a 50% cut in pay, or furlough 1/3 of the pilots and ask the rest to take a 20% cut in pay. Seems like there's little way to get a vote that isn't self serving - you either want to keep your job at 50% pay (you're the 1/3 that will get lopped off) or you want to keep your job at a 20% cut (you're the senior 2/3s that is safe from furlough). The Union would be split.

But what about a contract that adjusts salaries based on profit sharing, such as an employee owned airline might have? One that provides for fat salaries when times are good and profitable, and across the board reductions when things get tight like they are now. Even if pricewars force fares to bare minimum to keep the planes full, expenses would automatically come down as needed. What part of the real life equation am I missing here, and has this ever been done before?


(BTW, I will be picking up those books, FTL I & II ASAP, so I can stop asking so many stupid questions )