How to whore myself out?

[rickair7777]

To the original question, you can hold out all you want as long as there is no compensation involved.

The trick here is that the FAA often considers flight time itself to be a form of compensation, if the time-builder has career aspirations. If you can convince the FAA that you are done with professional flying and have no need to build time then it should be OK.

Basically, you're just looking to go for an airplane ride with a new friend. You could run an ad along those lines, and it would be just like running a personal ad for someone to play in your band or ride motorcycles with.

And I wouldn't hold it against you as long as it stays in recreational light recips...that's not really undercutting the multi-turbine industry.

 

[A Squared]

To the original question, you can hold out all you want as long as there is no compensation involved.

No compensation? Really? OK, I gotta ask, do you understand the significance of a commercial pilot certificate? I mean, how is a commercial certificate different than a private certificate? Based on your statement, it appears that you don't.

A commercial pilot certificate allows you to fly for compensation. There is nothing illeagal about a CPL holder accepting compensation, whether it's money, flight time or beer, to fly someone's airplane. Say Mr X has a Baron, he can hire some guy (with a commercial certificate) to fly his baron, or let him fly it for free for the flight time.

The problem comes if you offer to provide or arrange the airplane, *then* you are providing charter services and you run afoul of 119/135.

But accepting compensation to act as a pilot? Of course, that's the whole purpose of a commercial pilot certificate.

 

[rickair7777]

No compensation? Really? OK, I gotta ask, do you understand the significance of a commercial pilot certificate? I mean, how is a commercial certificate different than a private certificate? Based on your statement, it appears that you don't.

A commercial pilot certificate allows you to fly for compensation. There is nothing illeagal about a CPL holder accepting compensation, whether it's money, flight time or beer, to fly someone's airplane. Say Mr X has a Baron, he can hire some guy (with a commercial certificate) to fly his baron, or let him fly it for free for the flight time.

The problem comes if you offer to provide or arrange the airplane, *then* you are providing charter services and you run afoul of 119/135.

But accepting compensation to act as a pilot? Of course, that's the whole purpose of a commercial pilot certificate.

You are flat-out wrong, your simplistic view of commercial priveleges and common carriage is exactly what a 22 year old CFI might tell you to get you through the checkride oral. Obviously you never got the graduate-level explanation of AC 120-12A.

FAA "Holding Out" is more complicated and ambiguous than you appear to realize. If you are just a commercial pilot and want to work at the local patch, you have to avoid three things to stay out of trouble:

1) Scheduled Ops (Unless you work for a 121 carrier).
2) Charter Ops (Unless you work for a 135 carrier).
3) Holding Out ( this puts you back into the 121/135 realm)

Some elaboration on holding out:

It is unusual, but you can actually provide the airplane for the customer under 91 and not be guilty of holding out. You can also hold out for customers who supply their own airplane and still be guilty of unlicensed 135 ops.

A commercial pilot can generally be employed by a part 91 owner/operator, or even several, as long there is an established written contract (not technically required, but this is the gold stanadard in enforcement). You can even solicit new business based on word of mouth, but you really need to do these things:

1) Do not appear available to the general public at the drop of a hat.
2) Don't advertise, or be known around the field as the guy in 1). If everybody on the field knows about you, the FSDO will too.
3) Be very selective about who your employers are, and how many.
4) Use written contracts and have established, longer-term relationships with your employers.


The are a few regulatory exceptions to the 135 requirements: You can carry sightseeing or photo flights within 25 NM as long as you return to the point of origin...this is not common carriage by definition (no point A to point B is involved) and is specifically excused from the 135 requirements. You can supply the airplane and (I think) advertise for this also.

If you actually want to do anything along these lines, check with your local FSDO for guidance. And read AC 120-12A.

Back to the original post, I don't think any of this applies because he wants to do recreational flying, and since flight time should not count as compensation for a non-professional pilot, it's out of the commercial realm entirely. He just needs to be able to convince the FAA that he's no longer an aspiring professional pilot.

 

[A Squared]

You are flat-out wrong, your simplistic view of commercial priveleges and common carriage is exactly what a 22 year old CFI might tell you to get you through the checkride oral. Obviously you never got the graduate-level explanation of AC 120-12A.

well, no, I am not wrong, actually. I am astonished that you have such a basic lack of understanding of commercial pilot privileges. Yes, I have read 120-12A, many times. I am equally sure you have read it. The difference between you and I is that you didn't understand it. ("Yes Otto, baboons *do* read philosophy, they just don't understand it" Extra credit if you can name that quote) 120-12A refers to commercial carriers, and defines what is and what is not common carriage. It absolutely does not speak to the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate.

OK, let's start with the basics. What are the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate? That is in Part 61.133

§61.133 Commercial pilot privileges and limitations.

(a) Privileges -- (1) General. A person who holds a commercial pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft --

(i) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation; and

(ii) For compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation.

OK, you see that bold, underlined part? A commercial pilot may act as PIC for compensation or hire. That means that you can accept compensation for flying airplanes. There are more conditions, of course, you also must be qualified under the applicable regs. OK so what does that mean? Let's use the example of a Baron. Well, you're flying the Baron owner around in his own plane so it's a Part 91 flight, your qualifications are those listed in Part 61. That means that you must have a multiengine rating, high performance and complex endorsements, 3 t/o and landings in the last 90 days, IFR currency if it's an IFR flight. All perfectly legal, and you can d@mn well advertise to provide this service to aircraft owners. Notice that 61.133(a) does not say anything about not advertising your services, nothing, nada, zip. It say you can fly for compensation or hire. Period.

Look, take out a copy of Trade-a-Plane. Look under ferrying services. You will see any number of ads offering ferrying service. They are "holding out" to the public pilot services. You will also see this at any GA airport, handbills on the bulletin boards offering to ferry aircraft, sometimes for free, sometimes for money. Now, if this was illegal, as you suggest, don't you think the FAA would contact those folks publicly advertising commercial pilot services and suspend their commercial pilot certificates? Huh? Why is that? think about it. Mull that one over in your mind.

Now, let's say that hypothetically you are right, that "holding out" for pilot services is illegal.

I hang up a flyer on all hte bulletin boards at my airport (holding out to the public) which says "I will ferry your aircraft anywhere for $XXX/day and/or I will be your co-pilot in your aircraft for $xxx/day"

According to you this is illegal, because I am "holding out"

You are an FAA inspector, you see my flyer and you say to yourself, hey this @sshole is "holding out" I'm going to bust his @ss. So you hang out at the airport, in your dodge K-Car with tinted windows. You see me (and record on video) meeting with a local baron owner, him handing me the keys to the airplane and a wad of cash, and you see me (and record on video) get in the Baron (after a thorough preflight) take off and fly over the horizon. Coincidentally, you have one of your inspector buddies staking out my airport of destination. He gets video of me landing in the Baron, taxiing in and handing the keys to a mechanic at the FBO.

OK, you have a copy of my flyer. You have sworn testimony that it was hanging on a public bulletin board, you have irrefutable video proof of exactly what I've done. You're seething in self -righteous anger, you're going to take me down, big time.


OK there, Mr. regulations expert. Here's the $64,000 QUESTION. What regulation are you going to charge me with violating?

Serious question. A violation has to have a regulation. So tell me which regulation you're going to charge me with?

Waiting.

Waiting.


Right, you can't find a single regulation I have violated, because I haven't violated a single regulation.

That's why you see pilot "holding out" for ferry services for compensation, or co-pilot services, because it is perfectly legal.

What you do *not* see is pilots putting up flyers offering: "I'll fly you in my plane to anywhere for $xxx/hour" (or at least, you don't see it for long because the FAA has a chat with the pilot) Why don't you see that? You don't see that because that *is* illegal, when you are "holding out" to provide air transportation, you are a common carrier, and you must have a 135 certificate (or 121 certificate, depending on the operation and aircraft)

FAA "Holding Out" is more complicated and ambiguous than you appear to realize. If you are just a commercial pilot and want to work at the local patch, you have to avoid three things to stay out of trouble:

1) Scheduled Ops (Unless you work for a 121 carrier).
2) Charter Ops (Unless you work for a 135 carrier).
3) Holding Out ( this puts you back into the 121/135 realm)

Uhhh, nope, as wrong as you can be.

What you have to avoid is "holding out" for scheduled operations and "holding out" for charter services. You may "hold out" for pilot services, you may "hold out" for flight instruction (provided you have an instructor’s certificate) you may "hold out" to wash airplanes. In short you may "hold out" for anything for which you have the proper certification, and if you have a commercial pilot certificate, you are have the proper certification to provide pilot services.

It is unusual, but you can actually provide the airplane for the customer under 91 and not be guilty of holding out.

I agree, to an extent. But one has to be *extremely* careful how this is arranged, and it is very difficult to get this to pass the sniff test. I.e.: if it looks like a charter, and smells like a charter and sounds like a charter, it probably *is* a charter. Even if you are not "holding out" if you are providing air transportation for hire, it is probably private carriage and you still need a 135 certificate. See 119.23(b)

119.23

(a).......
(b) Each person who conducts noncommon carriage (except as provided in §91.501(b) of this chapter) or private carriage operations for compensation or hire with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of less than 20 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of less than 6,000 pounds shall --

(1) Comply with the certification and operations specifications requirements in subpart C of this part;

(2) Conduct those operations in accordance with the requirements of part 135 of this chapter, except for those requirements applicable only to commuter operations; and

(3) Be issued operations specifications in accordance with those requirements.

I can point you to NTSB decisions involving people who "*thought* they had this set up to get around having a 135 certificate, yet still got violated. Read Amin. v Nix


http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4825.PDF

For an example of a guy like you who though he had it all figured out with a "lease" arrangement and a contract for pilot services. He still got violated. Her's what the NTSB had to say: read it carefully because it's an important concept:

Nothing in respondent’s brief warrants a departure from our precedent that the provision of both plane and crew from a single source generally is deemed to be conclusive proof of carriage for compensation or hire.

Translation, unless there are very unusual circumstances, if the plane and the pilot come from the same source, it's an illegal 135 charter.

You can also hold out for customers who supply their own airplane and still be guilty of unlicensed 135 ops.

Describe a scenario in which this is true and quote the specific regulations which prohibit it.

 

[A Squared]

Continued

continuing on......

A commercial pilot can generally be employed by a part 91 owner/operator, or even several, as long there is an established written contract (not technically required, but this is the gold stanadard in enforcement). You can even solicit new business based on word of mouth, but you really need to do these things:

1) Do not appear available to the general public at the drop of a hat.

Quote the regulation which prohibits this.

2) Don't advertise, or be known around the field as the guy in 1). If everybody on the field knows about you, the FSDO will too.

Quote the regulation which prohibits this.

3) Be very selective about who your employers are, and how many.
4) Use written contracts and have established, longer-term relationships with your employers.

Quote the regulation which prohibits this.

So far you haven’t offered a shred of official documentation which supports your position. You’ve only made a vague reference to AC120-12A, which I will address soon.

The are a few regulatory exceptions to the 135 requirements: You can carry sightseeing or photo flights within 25 NM as long as you return to the point of origin...this is not common carriage by definition (no point A to point B is involved) and is specifically excused from the 135 requirements. You can supply the airplane and (I think) advertise for this also.

Partially correct, non-stop sightseeing flights within 25 NM are exempt from *most* (but not all) of the provisions of Part 135, but it is *not* because they are considered non-common carriage. Nor does Common carriage have anything to do with whether point to point transportation is provided. A non-stop flight could still be considered common carriage. WOW!, you really did completely miss the boat on AC120-12A! The sole purpose of AC120-12A is to clarify exactly what Common Carriage is and how it differs from Private carriage., and you still haven’t a clue. Notice that nowhere in AC120-12A does it mention point to point carriage or any similar concept. That aside, non-common carriage for compensation or hire still requires a 135 certificate. See the previously quoted 119.23(b) This only underscores that you really do *not* understand common carriage, private carriage, air-transportation, the provisions of Part 119, nor the content and intent of AC120-12A


On to AC120-12A:

You mention this AC, thinking that somehow, the mere mention of the AC number supports your position. It only serves to underscore your *lack* of understanding. I’ll take your word that you’ve actually read this AC, but obviously, like Otto and the baboons, it went sailing right over your head.

"The central message of Buddhism is *not* every man for himself, the London Underground is *not* a political movement"

(more clues for your trivia question)

Again, we’ll start with the basics. Look at the number of the AC. It has meaning, They don’t just pull those numbers out of thin air. I would refer you to AC 00-2.13, Appendix 1. Advisory Circulars having to do with airman certification are numbered 60-XX. This is your first clue that AC-120-12A does not address commercial pilot privileges, it’s not a 60 series AC. The 120 series of ACs address "Air Carriers, Air Travel Clubs and Operators for Compensation or Hire : Certification and Operations"

This should tell you that AC 120-12A is about what operators and carriers may and may not do, not what individual pilots may or may not do.


Now, if you didn’t catch the significance of the AC number (which you obviously didn’t) your second clue is the title of the AC: PRIVATE CARRIAGE VERSUS COMMON
CARRIAGE OF PERSONS OR PROPERTY.

Notice that the title says nothing about pilot privileges. You missed the first two clues, so your third clue to the purpose of the AC is the very first sentence, the one that begins with the word "Purpose".

1 0 PURPOSE. This advisory circular furnishes Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) personnel and interested segments of industry with general guidelines for determining whether current or proposed transportation operations by air constitute private or common carriage.

OK, read that carefully, and note the italicized words "transportation operations". Notice that it doesn’t say "pilot operations" This AC clarifies and sets policy regarding air transportation operations, that is operators who provide air transportation. A pilot, by himself is not a commercial operation, nor is he providing "air transportation" If you are offering pilot services, you are offering a warm , breathing (but apparently not thinking) body, probably a set of David Clarks, and maybe a Jepp case. That’s it. No airplane. A pilot without an airplane does not provide air transportation, you need an airplane. Look up the definition "air transportation" in Part 1 You’ll see that it is not something a pilot with no airplane can provide.

OK, continuing on. You missed the first three clues, but there’s more. Let’s go straight to the smoking gun, the part where "holding out" is addressed:

A carrier becomes a common carrier when it "holds itself out" to the public, or to a segment of the public, as willing to furnish transportation within the limits of its facilities to any person who wants it.

OK, again notice the italicized word, "carrier" a carrier is an entity which transports people or things, a pilot doesn’t carry things, a pilot flies airplanes. From there, the AC goes on to define and clarify "holding out"

Here’s your final clue that AC120-12A clarifies what "carriers" may do, but does not address what an individual pilot may or may not do: Nowhere in AC120-12A does the word "pilot" appear, not one single time. Don’t you think if the AC was intended to regulate pilots, they would be mentioned *somewhere* in the AC? Chew on that for a minute. Enough about AC120-12A. It should be sufficiently clear at this point that the AC addresses the actions of air carriers and commercial operators, not individual pilots. Once you offer an airplane with yourself as the pilot, you are offering air transportation, and you are an operator, not a pilot, and AC120-12A is applicable.

Now, if you post a flyer offering to fly people to other destinations in your 172 for hire, you are in violation of the regulations. I can point to the specific regulations you are violating. Just the act of advertising, by itself, is expressly prohibited, even if you never actually provide the service.. See 119.5(k)

119.5
(k) No person may advertise or otherwise offer to perform an operation subject to this part unless that person is authorized by the Federal Aviation Administration to conduct that operation.

Piloting airplanes under Part 91 is not "an operation subject to this part" (Part 119)

From there the list of regulations violated grows if you actually do provide transportation for hire.

However, If I post a flyer offering to ferry airplanes or act as your copilot (or PIC for that matter) in your airplane for compensation, I am violating no regulations.

Basically you have two options here:

a) Name a specific regulation my pilot services flyer is violating .

b) Concede that you don’t know what you are talking about.

You won’t be able to do a, so you may as well start with b.

 

[rickair7777]

well, no, I am not wrong, actually. I am astonished that you have such a basic lack of understanding of commercial pilot privileges. Yes, I have read 120-12A, many times. I am equally sure you have read it. The difference between you and I is that you didn't understand it. ("Yes Otto, baboons *do* read philosophy, they just don't understand it" Extra credit if you can name that quote) 120-12A refers to commercial carriers, and defines what is and what is not common carriage. It absolutely does not speak to the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate.

OK, let's start with the basics. What are the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate? That is in Part 61.133



OK, you see that bold, underlined part? A commercial pilot may act as PIC for compensation or hire. That means that you can accept compensation for flying airplanes. There are more conditions, of course, you also must be qualified under the applicable regs. OK so what does that mean? Let's use the example of a Baron. Well, you're flying the Baron owner around in his own plane so it's a Part 91 flight, your qualifications are those listed in Part 61. That means that you must have a multiengine rating, high performance and complex endorsements, 3 t/o and landings in the last 90 days, IFR currency if it's an IFR flight. All perfectly legal, and you can d@mn well advertise to provide this service to aircraft owners. Notice that 61.133(a) does not say anything about not advertising your services, nothing, nada, zip. It say you can fly for compensation or hire. Period.

Look, take out a copy of Trade-a-Plane. Look under ferrying services. You will see any number of ads offering ferrying service. They are "holding out" to the public pilot services. You will also see this at any GA airport, handbills on the bulletin boards offering to ferry aircraft, sometimes for free, sometimes for money. Now, if this was illegal, as you suggest, don't you think the FAA would contact those folks publicly advertising commercial pilot services and suspend their commercial pilot certificates? Huh? Why is that? think about it. Mull that one over in your mind.

You obviously need to re-read 120-12A. Ferrying airplanes is fine, as long as people or property don't go with the airplane. The original post seemed to be asking about flying somewhere with the owner.

Now, let's say that hypothetically you are right, that "holding out" for pilot services is illegal.

It's not illegal, but the TYPE of pilot service in question puts you into 135 (or maybe 121). Do you have a 121 or 135 cert in your wallet?

Despite the long elaboration, I'm still right and you're wrong. The original poster was looking to fly people's airplanes, and he didn't really specify ferry flights, so I addressed the question assuming the owner would be along for the ride.

And next time, lay off the attitude, it's non-productive and you're still wrong anyway.

 

[A Squared]

You obviously need to re-read 120-12A.

Specifically which part? Merely repeating without explanation that I need to re-read 120-12A only underscores that you haven't a clue.

Ferrying airplanes is fine, as long as people or property don't go with the airplane. The original post seemed to be asking about flying somewhere with the owner.

Right, what is the regulatory difference between flying someplace with the owner and ferrying an aircraft?

Specific regulation please.

Are you by *any* chance familliar with corporate aviation? It does constitute a significant portion of the aviation that goes on in this country. That's where a company hires pilots to fly company employees around in the company's airplane. There is no regulatory difference between a company owner hiring pilots to fly him and his employees around in his Lear and some guy hiring a pilot to fly him around in that guy's (the owner's, not the pilots) own Baron. From a regulatory standpoint those situations are identical.

So tell us, why isn't the FAA taking down corporate part 91 flight departments left and right?

What regulations are being violated?

It's not illegal, but the TYPE of pilot service in question puts you into 135 (or maybe 121).

Really, how? Specific regulation please.

Despite the long elaboration, I'm still right and you're wrong.

Wow, that was intelligent!!!!!!!!

I'm utterly unimpressed with you reiterating that you think I'm wrong while offering not one single word to support your position. You aren't arguing you're just contradicting, and that is the intellectual domain of two year-olds.

The original poster was looking to fly people's airplanes, and he didn't really specify ferry flights, so I addressed the question assuming the owner would be along for the ride.

Again, point to one single regulatioln which would make it illegal to take the owner for a ride in his own airplane.

One single regulation,

You have yet to point to ONE SINGLE REGULATION which supports your statement

we're waiting for you to point to one single regulation which makes offering pilot services illegal.

You won't do it, becuse you *can't* do it.

 

[onthebeach]

A Squared is right, Rick.

Let's look at this way, Rick.

Say I have some experience and schooling in a King Air 200. I put an ad in the paper: "Corporate King Air pilot available."

(OK, here comes the fictional part) Then I get a call from Mr. Smith whose company just bought a King Air 200 but they don't have a pilot to fly it. Mr. Smith hires me as his corporate pilot. I fly him, and his employees and/or guests on this King Air (NONE of which are charged IN ANY WAY for said transportation), on his company's business and/or his personal business/pleasure flights. In return, he pays me handsomely. (NOTE: He will also have to pay an accountant handsomely to sort out the taxes which may be applicable to each flight; I don't go there).

Rick, this is called "corporate aviation," and it's just as legal as it can be, with a commercial pilot certificate.

Of course, usually Mr. Smith puts out the ad and I answer it, but it COULD work the other way around. All perfectly legal. Trust me on this one...or not...but either way, A Squared is correct. Listen to him.

 

[CJCCapt]

14 CFR part 119.1(e)

The flight activities a low-time commercial pilot may do (hold out for) are specifically listed in 14 CFR Part 119.1 (e) (which includes ferry work). Anything else will most likely fall into parts 121, 125, or 135 and the pilot must meet the additional requirements of those parts.

To answer the original question, if you let it be known you are available to fly someone in their airplane "for free" you are being compensated at least by valuable flight time (FAA point-of-view). You won't see that activity listed in 119.1(e). Even an instructor needs to be careful and make sure that he/she is actually giving instruction, not just riding along and "calling it dual" (the FAA recently pulled the certificates of a MEI who was doing this. The NTSB upheld the action).

 

[CJCCapt]

Let's look at this way, Rick.

Say I have some experience and schooling in a King Air 200. I put an ad in the paper: "Corporate King Air pilot available."

(OK, here comes the fictional part) Then I get a call from Mr. Smith whose company just bought a King Air 200 but they don't have a pilot to fly it. Mr. Smith hires me as his corporate pilot. I fly him, and his employees and/or guests on this King Air (NONE of which are charged IN ANY WAY for said transportation), on his company's business and/or his personal business/pleasure flights. In return, he pays me handsomely. (NOTE: He will also have to pay an accountant handsomely to sort out the taxes which may be applicable to each flight; I don't go there).

Rick, this is called "corporate aviation," and it's just as legal as it can be, with a commercial pilot certificate.

Of course, usually Mr. Smith puts out the ad and I answer it, but it COULD work the other way around. All perfectly legal. Trust me on this one...or not...but either way, A Squared is correct. Listen to him.

No. It's call private carriage or noncommon carriage. And it's allowed under Part 91. It does not fall under part 119.1. It's not "common carriage" and as long as you do it under contract for one or maybe two owners, you are not "holding out". As long as the owner and insurance company approve, you may fly as a private corporate pilot.

So yes. He may fly as a corporate pilot. He needs an employment contract (1099) or be hired and carried by his employer as an employee (W-2). He can fly his employer's C-172 on company business or as directed by the boss. He could even do it for several employers, but not just "hang" around the airport and offer his commercial services "for free".