How low will you go?

[46Driver]

Be careful what you ask for. If it is for government regulation, the same regs that would raise the minimum salary of pilots could also cap the top amount. The American working man does not "want to see us taken advantage of" but by the same token, you are going to have an extremely difficult time convincing the taxpayer to subsidize airline pilots making more than the more dangerous and hardship filled job of military pilots.

Choose your poison wisely.

 

[Bluto]

Your post kinda bummed me out.
--Sometimes the truth hurts.
I maybe be going out on a limb here, but maybe things are the way there are because of your type of attitude.
--Yep, pretty far out on the limb. Things are the way they are because of a competetive market coupled with the seniority system.
Captains not supporting junior pilots is sad.
--I disagree. There is a fixed amount of funds available for pilot salaries in any given company. Why should they redistribute those funds to the newest employees and take it away from the senior ones? Generally, the senior pilots are the ones with the most expenses (kids, house, 1st, 2nd, and sometimes 3rd wives to support...) If, knowing what beginning regional salaries are, you can't budget to support yourself for that first 17k year, you can't afford a career in aviation. Don't expect senior pilots who have already lived within their means to take a hit to support you.
You should see all the flight crews in your company as a team. Very little can be done by the individual. When you all stand together, things get done. Yes Bluto, saying "enough is enough" will change things. You all just need to say it together and very loud.
--That's a beautiful idea. Now show a single example of this in the real world. In this industry. Holding hands and singing cumbaya makes no difference.
Oh..and by the way, the public will support you when they learn about the starting salaries. The American working man never likes to hear about some other worker being taking at advantage of.
--If you really believe this I feel sorry for you. Individuals will feel sorry for you. Friends at partys will share your outrage at the pittance you earn. "How dare they!" they'll say. Then, next week when they go on a trip they'll choose the airline with the lowest ticket prices, regardless of how well they compensate their pilots, and enjoy their flight. The general public doesn't care how much you earn.

Mike, I mean no offense and I'm really sorry if I'm bumming you out. It bothers me when people assume they have a new idea on how to 'fix' the pay situation in this industry. Do you honestly think you're the first one to come up with "Enough is enough!"??? There are some pretty bright people out there working on our contracts. I don't suggest that we give up, by any means. But being unrealistic about our situation only distracts from the true goal. Just saying you're mad as hell and you're not going to take it anymore does nothing for anyone in this industry. Talk to some people on this board who left the regionals on principle because they wouldn't fly for so little. See how well they impacted the industry. You honestly think the public cares about our salaries? Did you catch the USA today featuring this ad? :
"Continental Express Pilots
We are professional pilots and we deserve a contract that reflects this.
2,500 Professional Airline Pilots
Instrumental in making their company 2003 Regional Airline of the Year by safely transporting over 50,000 passengers daily to more than 130 destinations in the United States, Canada, and Mexico.

$17,600 - starting annual salary

Some of the professional pilots of Continental Express must do more than just fly airplanes in order to feed their families. Along with safely flying your airplane, the might work in a restaurant or in the retail industry. The might also proudly server our country in the military.

Please support the men and women who fly for Continental Express Airlines as they continue negotiations for a new contract.

Paid for by Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l."
--Remember the outraged letters to the editor of USA today? Remember the drastic reduction in people flying on COEX as a result? Angry letters to the CEO Mr. Ream? No? Neither do I. Why not? People don't care. The public is not going to solve our pay problem. Only we can do that, incrementally and with each contract.

 

[pilotyip]

This will get you a raise

When F/O turnover training costs exceed the cost of giving a pay raise to reduce turnover, then the management will look at increasing pay. We had a situation where turnover was killing us, approaching a 50% per year, F/O made $24K as a DA-20 F/O, we raised it to $33K and turnover became manageable. The reduction in training costs paid for a great part of the pay raise. Now back in 1999 the job market was hot and movement was easy, everyone leaving had another job. So to make this work, you have to start looking for a job the day you go on line, and then take the first job that comes up to show the company you mean business. This could be cargo F/O, CFI, anything. Remember you are not leaving for a better job or better pay, but to show mangement they have to raise the pay. If the company sees turnover approaching a certain level they will have to act. This rapid turnover will not only effect training costs but schedule completion. The guys leaving may not benefit from it, but the brother hood will benefit in the future due to sacrifices of those who gave up there jobs for the cause. To those few, "For those who shed their jobs with me will be my brother," (a little parapharsed Shakespeare for drama) pilots throughout the world will raise their glasses and say "I wonder what ever happen to those guys who left XYZ"? It worked for the pilots here, it should work for pilots everywhere, who is going to be first?

 

[ebaybob]

Just a thought...may have been mentioned before or may already be in place...

Why don't we give pilots votes in contract negotiations based on seniority. For example, 15 year pilots have 15 votes and 1st year pilots have 1 vote. Although this may skew pay scales toward more senior pilots it may also preserve higher paying positions to "move into" and make the industry more attractive to talented individuals. Many corporations now employ something similar when voting for directors and voting on shareholder resolutions.

Comments? Has this been done before? What was the outcome?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[Sticky]

You should see all the flight crews in your company as a team. Very little can be done by the individual. When you all stand together, things get done. Yes Bluto, saying "enough is enough" will change things. You all just need to say it together and very loud.
--

That's a beautiful idea. Now show a single example of this in the real world. In this industry. Holding hands and singing cumbaya makes no difference.

Bluto, you have got to be kidding me. First of all, can you really not think of a time that pilots, flight attendants, or mechanics have stood together at their work entrance saying "enough is enough"? That is exactly the way, and the ONLY way you will ever improve things at work. Do you think management is going to voluntarily make work life better for you? Obviously a strike is the last resort; hopefully your negotiators will fix the problem.

Oh..and by the way, the public will support you when they learn about the starting salaries. The American working man never likes to hear about some other worker being taking at advantage of.
--

If you really believe this I feel sorry for you. Individuals will feel sorry for you. Friends at partys will share your outrage at the pittance you earn. "How dare they!" they'll say. Then, next week when they go on a trip they'll choose the airline with the lowest ticket prices, regardless of how well they compensate their pilots, and enjoy their flight. The general public doesn't care how much you earn.

Bluto, I was implying the day that pilots refuse to work, and force the cancellations of hundreds of flights. At first, the passengers will be very upset. However, when they learn why you are doing it, they'll probably completely understand. In fact, the anger will shift from the pilots to the management.

Mike, I mean no offense and I'm really sorry if I'm bumming you out. It bothers me when people assume they have a new idea on how to 'fix' the pay situation in this industry. Do you honestly think you're the first one to come up with "Enough is enough!"??? There are some pretty bright people out there working on our contracts.

Of course I realize that these are not "new" ways of fixing problems. My point is that this is typically the only way to change things. I really don't understand the confusion here. What do you think Comair did? How about Mesaba? It was the pilots to changed things. Don't forget all the majors in the past 30 years who have done it too. Bluto, the reason I feel so strongly on these topics is because I fear that the young pilots don't realize how much they can do. It really does seem like they have the "oh well" attitude.

 

[J32driver]

Sticky... go to page 2 and read my post... cause you don't get it either!

What part about "illegal job action" confuses you. People will get fired and the bankrupt union won't be able to protect them.

 

[Sticky]

J32driver-

I did read your post, and yes that is obviously an important consideration. I do realize that there are catches in the system. I'll admit that since I've never had a union or worked for an airline, my views and feelings toward the issue may be misinformed. Needless to say, that's the reason I posted the first question in the thread. I'm looking for information from people actually working in the regionals. I'd be interested to learning more about the history of failed union actions too.

 

[Indypilot]

"the reason I feel so strongly on these topics is because I fear that the young pilots don't realize how much they can do."

Ok, what are you saying they do? lets suppose they do band together and eventually get higher wages, those higher wages have to be paid for so one of two things will happen, either profits will be lower, causing stock price to take a dump, limiting future expansion as access to capital markets is severly restricted, or losses are futher widend and the carrier goes bankrupt and everyone loses their job. The other way to pay for the new higher wages would be to pass them along to the consumer. The problem is right now we are on the wrong side of the demand curve causing prices to be extemely elastic. In other words, a small increase in prices will cause a large decrease in passengers. So the carrier can try, however if they raised prices, they would lose tons of passengers, and the result is lower profits or wider losses, and the above happens. So by banding together and increasing wages, you just lost the bottom 20% of the pilot group in this country. So now answer this question, would you rather take a 5% paycut, or a 100% paycut. I know what your response would be, the junior pilots should just suck it up and get furloughed so everyone else gets higher wages. Try explaining that to the wife and kids of these guys.

The economic realities are harsh, there really is nothing any one person or group of people can do long term to artificially inflate wages in a free market economy. So as my earlier post stated, the only way to fix the problem would be to regulate the entire industry again. So lets suppose the government steps in and regulates all 121 carriers. Ticket prices go up, half the pilots in the country lose their jobs, and the remaining pilots get paid more. Cool, here is the problem with that, eventually the subsitution effect would get a hold of the industry. Some genious will order 300 mini jets and starts an air taxi service with ticket prices cheaper than the government regulated Airline ticket prices, airlines start losing money hand over fist and more pilots lose jobs. So the answer to that, start regulating that industry, well eventually, you would have to regulate everything in the transportation industry, and then eventually you have a communist country. No thanks.

No matter how you slice the pie, it is only so big. The size of the pie depends on consumer demand. So it boils down to this, you will take what the market is offering, or you will get out and do something else with your life.

 

[Bluto]

Ok, maybe I can clarify.

Bluto, you have got to be kidding me. First of all, can you really not think of a time that pilots, flight attendants, or mechanics have stood together at their work entrance saying "enough is enough"? That is exactly the way, and the ONLY way you will ever improve things at work. Do you think management is going to voluntarily make work life better for you? Obviously a strike is the last resort; hopefully your negotiators will fix the problem.
--When Comair went on strike they raised the bar for themselves. Their contract was by no means earth-shattering, but they did have a number of factors working against them (multiple DAL feeders, etc.). All things considered, I consider their strike to have been very effective, relatively speaking. Unfortunately, it still didn't do what many expected it to do; revolutionize industry pay.


Bluto, I was implying the day that pilots refuse to work, and force the cancellations of hundreds of flights. At first, the passengers will be very upset. However, when they learn why you are doing it, they'll probably completely understand. In fact, the anger will shift from the pilots to the management.
--I can see why you would think this. Unfortunately, it is simply wrong! You don't have to look very hard at what happens when airlines go on strike to realize this. A few passengers (probably union-members themselves) will likely express concern over the poor pay, but the average "Joe-passenger" really doesn't care.

Of course I realize that these are not "new" ways of fixing problems. My point is that this is typically the only way to change things. I really don't understand the confusion here. What do you think Comair did? How about Mesaba? It was the pilots to changed things. Don't forget all the majors in the past 30 years who have done it too. Bluto, the reason I feel so strongly on these topics is because I fear that the young pilots don't realize how much they can do. It really does seem like they have the "oh well" attitude.
--What you are refering to here is the system that has been in place essentially since ALPA came into being, even before that with the RLA. I never suggested that we should give up on this system. On the contrary, you seem to be the one advocating a change in how we approach the labor/management relationship. Look at ExpressJet's negotiations. It is a very long-term process. It's quite a bit more complicated than simply stating that you're not going to take it anymore. For better or worse, our legal system simply doesn't allow that kind of flexibility and "voting with your feet" by leaving the company only works in extreme circumstances as described by Pilotyip. Even then, the industry has to be in a position where new alternative jobs are readily available for this to be an option.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Halfmoon, please read this. This is how you stop from what you just said from happening.



Right on Mike. Hate to repeat myself, but its up to the pilots to force their companies pass along the expense of having professional flight crews to the American consumer. Perhaps it sounds too simple, but all it would take is a 3 or 4 dollar per ticket increase. If the flight crews (FA & Pilots) split that, everyone’s pay would increase by thousands. The only problem is getting all your competitors to do the same. That’s were your union should be helping you. As far as enforcing it, isn't that what the little black book is for? It may sound cruel, but their should be a list of pilots (whether they're 22 and right out of ERAU or 45 and out of the military) that have proven they're willing to under cut you by working for peanuts. That list means that they will never see a union job, or even a jump seat on your airline. That should be a deterrent for pilots to work at those companies. Even if it means getting a temporary non-flying job until things get better. In the end guys, even with the harsh rules of the "little black book", it will be good for all pilots.

Mike

We've already tried the "raise the crew's pay and pass the cost on to the pasengers" thing. It's called Delta Air Lines, perhaps you've heard of them? Perhaps you've also seen some recent SEC filings that would tell you how well that little experiment has been working for them.

I've long stated that Econ 101 should be required for every American to graduate high school. That would eliminate this thread, as well as the Democrat party for that matter.

 

[Indypilot]

We've already tried the "raise the crew's pay and pass the cost on to the pasengers" thing. It's called Delta Air Lines, perhaps you've heard of them? Perhaps you've also seen some recent SEC filings that would tell you how well that little experiment has been working for them.

I've long stated that Econ 101 should be required for every American to graduate high school. That would eliminate this thread, as well as the Democrat party for that matter.

Thank you. Nuff said

 

[Sticky]

We've already tried the "raise the crew's pay and pass the cost on to the pasengers" thing. It's called Delta Air Lines, perhaps you've heard of them?

Do you intend to be a little jack@ss, or is it just who you are? Even though I can easy bring up several points to you post, I'm not going to bother.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

At 6'6" 235 I've not been called little for quite some time.

Let's face it, your original post is stupid, quite frankly and a bit insulting to us who actually make a living in this industry. In fact, like 85% of the posts here it's flamebait. You're just some whiny little know-it-all CFI/banner tower/skydiver pilot who thinks you've got the answer to the entire problem. Well, you don't.

This is one of the few industries where people get into it primarily for the love, not for compensation. I don't know many who grow up dreaming of working the line for GM startnig out at $25 an hour pushing around a parts cart (need a better example of the perversity of unions, btw?). However, nearly every pilot I've ever known has dreamed of it for years, probably since childhood. That means that compensation isn't the number one issue for most of us. That's why I took a job flying a 55 yr old dc-3 for $50 daily, because I always wanted to fly the 3, not for the money. I know few (modern) people who have ever flown it, and it's a highlight of my career. I took a job at the regional I flew for because they were based in my hometown and I wanted the flight bennies (and a chance at flying a high performance jet). The compensation was secondary, although be assured it was an issue and was something that kept me from Mesa, Chico, Lakes, Colgan (God bless you guys, don't know how you do it)among other places.

My original post was as succinct as I could make it, and truthfull. You have a list of responses, go right ahead kid. In fact, when I read that part of your post, I could only wonder:

Why not Minot?

 

[Sticky]

Bluto-

I do respect and understand your counter points in this thread. You seem to disagree with everything that I offer up though . I'm wondering what your ideas are solving some of these issues? Do you believe that there is nothing regional pilots can do, they are making steps to improve things, or that there really isn't any problems to begin with?



Indypilot-



I assume you fly for ACA, and I wish you guys luck with the solo venture. I have alot of respect for the ACA crews for their stand with UAL. I may be wrong, but didn't ACA say to UAL that their services were worth more then the new contract offered? Didn't UAL threaten to bring in Mesa and TSA who could do the same job as you guys for less? What ACA did to UAL is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. From an outsiders view, it appears that you feel that you're worth more then you were offered, and you fought it. However, it seems that your posts here contradict that. Am I wrong?

 

[agonyairfo]

"$17,600 for first year fo pay at Express Jet"?

That sucks, but I don't feel the slightest bit sorry for the guy holding up that sign in the picture. First and foremost, is he in his first year? If so, why did he take the job in the first place? He just agreed to work for that pay when they hired him, and now he is going to turn around a few months later and be outraged by it? Is he willing to go on strike when he just demonstrated a willingness to work for those wages?
Obviously, they should be paid more, just making a point. Besides, the low starting pay is more a factor of his senior co-workers. They where once there, but apparently have forgotten what its like. You notice it didnt say, 8 year Captains only make $_ _,_ _ _ a year. Not that there pay shouldn't also be raised. BUt that "$17,600" figure grabs Joe Public's attention.
John Ornstein was rumored to have walked into day 1 of a groundschool and said, "I guess I do pay pilots enough, these classes are always full."