How low will you go?

[Indypilot]

We've already tried the "raise the crew's pay and pass the cost on to the pasengers" thing. It's called Delta Air Lines, perhaps you've heard of them? Perhaps you've also seen some recent SEC filings that would tell you how well that little experiment has been working for them.

I've long stated that Econ 101 should be required for every American to graduate high school. That would eliminate this thread, as well as the Democrat party for that matter.

Thank you. Nuff said

 

[Sticky]

We've already tried the "raise the crew's pay and pass the cost on to the pasengers" thing. It's called Delta Air Lines, perhaps you've heard of them?

Do you intend to be a little jack@ss, or is it just who you are? Even though I can easy bring up several points to you post, I'm not going to bother.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

At 6'6" 235 I've not been called little for quite some time.

Let's face it, your original post is stupid, quite frankly and a bit insulting to us who actually make a living in this industry. In fact, like 85% of the posts here it's flamebait. You're just some whiny little know-it-all CFI/banner tower/skydiver pilot who thinks you've got the answer to the entire problem. Well, you don't.

This is one of the few industries where people get into it primarily for the love, not for compensation. I don't know many who grow up dreaming of working the line for GM startnig out at $25 an hour pushing around a parts cart (need a better example of the perversity of unions, btw?). However, nearly every pilot I've ever known has dreamed of it for years, probably since childhood. That means that compensation isn't the number one issue for most of us. That's why I took a job flying a 55 yr old dc-3 for $50 daily, because I always wanted to fly the 3, not for the money. I know few (modern) people who have ever flown it, and it's a highlight of my career. I took a job at the regional I flew for because they were based in my hometown and I wanted the flight bennies (and a chance at flying a high performance jet). The compensation was secondary, although be assured it was an issue and was something that kept me from Mesa, Chico, Lakes, Colgan (God bless you guys, don't know how you do it)among other places.

My original post was as succinct as I could make it, and truthfull. You have a list of responses, go right ahead kid. In fact, when I read that part of your post, I could only wonder:

Why not Minot?

 

[Sticky]

Bluto-

I do respect and understand your counter points in this thread. You seem to disagree with everything that I offer up though . I'm wondering what your ideas are solving some of these issues? Do you believe that there is nothing regional pilots can do, they are making steps to improve things, or that there really isn't any problems to begin with?



Indypilot-



I assume you fly for ACA, and I wish you guys luck with the solo venture. I have alot of respect for the ACA crews for their stand with UAL. I may be wrong, but didn't ACA say to UAL that their services were worth more then the new contract offered? Didn't UAL threaten to bring in Mesa and TSA who could do the same job as you guys for less? What ACA did to UAL is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. From an outsiders view, it appears that you feel that you're worth more then you were offered, and you fought it. However, it seems that your posts here contradict that. Am I wrong?

 

[agonyairfo]

"$17,600 for first year fo pay at Express Jet"?

That sucks, but I don't feel the slightest bit sorry for the guy holding up that sign in the picture. First and foremost, is he in his first year? If so, why did he take the job in the first place? He just agreed to work for that pay when they hired him, and now he is going to turn around a few months later and be outraged by it? Is he willing to go on strike when he just demonstrated a willingness to work for those wages?
Obviously, they should be paid more, just making a point. Besides, the low starting pay is more a factor of his senior co-workers. They where once there, but apparently have forgotten what its like. You notice it didnt say, 8 year Captains only make $_ _,_ _ _ a year. Not that there pay shouldn't also be raised. BUt that "$17,600" figure grabs Joe Public's attention.
John Ornstein was rumored to have walked into day 1 of a groundschool and said, "I guess I do pay pilots enough, these classes are always full."

 

[Sticky]

At 6'6" 235 I've not been called little for quite some time.

Let's face it, your original post is stupid, quite frankly and a bit insulting to us who actually make a living in this industry. In fact, like 85% of the posts here it's flamebait. You're just some whiny little know-it-all CFI/banner tower/skydiver pilot who thinks you've got the answer to the entire problem. Well, you don't.

Fine, let me rephrase that. Do you mean to be a big Jack.......



Anyway..I don't want to start some silly flight on an internet message board. Listen, I could hardly be called a whiny know-it-all. Besides, in this thread I've always offered my opinion and welcomed others. If there is any know-it-all here, it's you. I don't know the answer to everything, that’s why I ask questions. I'll tell you one thing you don't know; I'm not a CFI/banner/tower/skydive pilot. I worked very hard at learning flying skills that several companies around the country pay quite well for (at 1300 hours anyway). Listen, someday I may go to the regionals too. I don't think my questions have been "stupid" either.

 

[Indypilot]

Indypilot-



I assume you fly for ACA, and I wish you guys luck with the solo venture. I have alot of respect for the ACA crews for their stand with UAL. I may be wrong, but didn't ACA say to UAL that their services were worth more then the new contract offered? Didn't UAL threaten to bring in Mesa and TSA who could do the same job as you guys for less? What ACA did to UAL is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. From an outsiders view, it appears that you feel that you're worth more then you were offered, and you fought it. However, it seems that your posts here contradict that. Am I wrong?

Your assumption is correct. Thanks for the words of encouragement, we hope all goes well. Yes, ACA did tell united that their services weren't worth more than what the contract offered, but you have to be cafeful with that one. It wasn't the pay from united that was an issue, it was the risk sharing that was. Under the new contract, the theat of replacing our flying on a moments notice to the cheaper regionals was too large, hence the birth of Independence Air. So yes you are right, We did tell united to take a hike, but the question is, what was united's response, they backfilled all of our flying with other regionals. The same way one person who says, Im not flying at those rates, gets replaced with one that does. If united had nobody else to turn to, the market would have dictated they would give us what we wanted to stay. The reason for this is because there is too much supply out there. Too much supply in regionals, and too much supply in pilots. You see the correlation?

The only thing that will fix that is to get rid of the over supply. Of course here is where it gets tricky, if say, 3 airlines go out of business because of the over capacity in the industry, it floods the market with an over supply of pilots. this will do nothing but lower wages as the over supply of pilots corrects itself in the market.

The thing to remember with the ACA situation is that we had a better option still flying airplanes. To correlate that to the labor situation, would be like saying, You have a choice at working at a regional, or an LCC, which one do you choose? The problem is that most people don't have this option when first starting out, they only have the regional option. Just like if ACA only had the regional option, they would have signed the united contract. Yes a person could hold out and wait to get hired by an LCC or a major, but at what cost. Are they going to be an instructor making 10,000 a year? well the 18,000 offered at the regionals is a much more enticing offer, espcially because the mindset right now is, I don't care because i will move up shortly.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there is no end in sight. I do believe rates are too low right now. The problem is, because of the market situation right now, there is nothing anyone or any group can do about it. The only choice one has at this point is like it or get out. The only way to regain control is to have the industry rebound to a point where they have market pricing power. The only way that will happen is if a few go under, that will cause an oversupply of pilots, and a wage decrease in the short term, BUT eventually the profitablility will mean expansion which means more pilots will be needed. As long as there is a shortage of pilots because of retirements, and peoples reservation wage goes higher (by this time most that lost their jobs have other careers and it would cost too much to go back to the bottom of the list), the market will reflect a raise in pilot pay. The problem is that this might take 5,10,20 years to happen.

Hopefully that answers some of your questions.

 

[secks]

Alright smart guy... what is an individual pilot supposed to do? How do I NOT accept a wage? Only way I could do that would be to leave my flying career for something else. That will mean more school, more debt, and a job that I will probably hate.

What are you supposed to do? Either hold out for what you think is a "fair" wage or find another job. What more do you want? This is simple economics: small pilot demand, large pilot supply. I don't care how you finesse the facts, this will always dictate competition and will drive down wages. Not even a strong union can stop this.

What do you think happens when I don't "accept" my wage. The 400 pilots below me slide up 1 # in seniority and then 1 person gets to start at a regional for $20,000. Do the airlines care that I quit? Did I make an earthshattering statement by giving up my job? Will the company run out and hand the pilots a higher wage because I quit?

This is exactly the mentality which has resulted in the current state of the industry: "I won't make a difference, so I'll just take whatever I can get." It's not your fault; that's just human nature.

OH WAIT... I know... I'll just stop responding to people who ARE NOT WORKING IN THIS INDUSTRY AND DON'T HAVE A FREAKING CLUE HOW THINGS WORK IN THE REAL WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, bury your head in the sand and pretend that economics don't apply. Also, whenever someone outside the airline industry smacks you upside the head for being such a crybaby, stick your fingers in your ears, assume the fetal position, and pretend they don't know $hit from shinola.

--------------------

If your job is so bad why do you agree to do it? In your own words: "Whenever you complain about low pay, look in the mirror for the person to blame. By accepting that wage, you've become part of the problem." and " If you can't stand the job, then move on and let someone who wants the job have it."

Clearly you missed the point there. Airline pilots, for some reason, feel entitled to high wages because they 1) have undergone expensive training 2) operate expensive equipment 3) sometimes carry passengers 4) endure occupational hazards. Sorry, that doesn't mean you deserve a great wage. Those factors shouldn't make you immune from the free market. The examples of railroaders, nurses, and officers were used to demonstrate that there are plenty of other workers out there who satisfy all if not most of those criteria and endure much worse conditions than your typical regional pilot.

Extensive training? Compared to what? I'm not belittling railroad workers but don't even try to compare a conductor with any pilot. Engineer, maybe, I don't know what exactly is involved, but I'd be shocked to find out that your 'extensive training' is comparable to what a pro pilot has to do. I readily admit I could be way off base on this but I'm willing to bet that there isn't much of a real comparison.

Yes, extensive training. Granted, it's not all textbook training; most of it is conducted on site. Most engineers who hold at least a PPL will tell you that controlling a freight train is much more difficult than operating an aircraft. I won't get into it. If you're interested, do some web searches. I'm not saying that railroaders are superior to pilots, or vice versa. Again, the whole point of these examples is to challenge the notion that pilots deserve high wages due to the inherent danger, difficulty, and stress associated with said occupation. There are plenty of other workers eating more $hit than you guys, and nobody bats an eye. Get in line ...

 

[supsup]

What's your job Sticky?

 

[J32driver]

This is simple economics: small pilot demand, large pilot supply. I don't care how you finesse the facts, this will always dictate competition and will drive down wages. Not even a strong union can stop this.

Secks.... your making this way to easy for me. You just proved my point. No individual and no union can completely control the wages. Thank you. So, instead of whining about it and quitting my job in disgust, I hang out until the end of my contract and hope that the market conditions are better the next time we negotiate.

Accepting a low wage doesn't take away a pilot's right to protest that low wage.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Fine, let me rephrase that. Do you mean to be a big Jack.......



Anyway..I don't want to start some silly flight on an internet message board. Listen, I could hardly be called a whiny know-it-all. Besides, in this thread I've always offered my opinion and welcomed others. If there is any know-it-all here, it's you. I don't know the answer to everything, that’s why I ask questions. I'll tell you one thing you don't know; I'm not a CFI/banner/tower/skydive pilot. I worked very hard at learning flying skills that several companies around the country pay quite well for (at 1300 hours anyway). Listen, someday I may go to the regionals too. I don't think my questions have been "stupid" either.

Sigh, another (alleged) 1300 hour winderkind who has the solution to all that ails aviation. Where the hell do all of you kids come from? Go out into the world, gain some experience and think for yourself. Start a small business or two and figure out how to meet payroll without driving all of your customers away. Also, try picking up an econ text or two while you're at it. A few industry history books might serve a purpose. Then, come back here and lecture all of us as to why we're are fools for being underpaid, adn you have it all figured out. But barely meeting 135 mins does not an expert make you.

BTW, the only non-cfi jobs anyone gets at 1300 hrs (without buying them) are either flying daddy's corporate bird or on Microsoft Flight Simulator. And I say that as the CEO of a multifacited 135 operation. I'm not convinced you're not some HS kid trying rile us all up.

 

[wmuflyguy]

" Granted, it's not all textbook training; most of it is conducted on site. Most engineers who hold at least a PPL will tell you that controlling a freight train is much more difficult than operating an aircraft."

Ok well I dont doubt that doubt that controlling a few thousand ton freight train is harder than flying a C172. I have only limited jet experience but It isnt fair to comepare flying a light single or twin airplane to what most of the people in this forum fly. Try large jets that can weigh a decent amount, then throw in bad weather and emergencies.
This is stuff you wouldnt get in PPL training (approaches to mins) and thus not have experience in, so it isnt right to say that since someone has their PPL they can make a judgment that conducting a commercial train is more complicated than flying an Airliner in the soup with an engine on fire.

 

[Sticky]

Jungle Jet-

If you want to continue this discussion, lets do it through PM, ok? I'd like to keep this thread a productive one.

The only one you're embarrassing here is yourself.