How low will you go?

[secks]

Some questions for all you guys in the regional world. Please keep in mind I mean no disrespect. After months reading all the posts about regional pilot pay, I'm finally stumped and have to ask these questions. Keep in mind I'm a commercial pilot too, but don't fly passengers or cargo.

1. Why does it seem like there is a competition to see who can do the other pilots job for less?

Isn't it obvious? It's called competition, and it is particularly noticable when pilot supply far exceeds pilot demand. If you were desperate for a job and weren't the best qualified applicant, wouldn't it make sense to offer your services at a lower rate in order to compete? Nobody seems to complain when masons or framers are displaced by cheap illegal mexican migrant labor. What makes pilots so special? Lives in their hands? No: 1) Only some pilots transport human cargo. 2) Bus drivers and nurses are also responsible for humans. Not much of an outcry on their behalf, now is there?

I find it hard to sympathize with pilots when they exercised free choice and plunged into an extremely expensive, competitive occupation. When I hear pilots complain about working conditions, all I have to do is think about rail workers who endure extensive training, earn $40k per year, sleep 5 hours a day, are on the job 14 hours a day, perform physical labor, and are on call 24/7. Or the police officers and nurses out there who pull horrible shifts, risk their lives, deal with human scum, and earn about what regional pilots do. Sorry guys, this is reality, and you've got no room to complain. If you can't stand the job, then move on and let someone who wants the job have it.

 

[pilotyip]

Remember late 2000

A pilot shortage was starting to develope, the regional airlines were having trouble finding enought 1200 TT, 500 MEL candidates, so what did they do raise the wages to attract more quailifed pilots, no way, they redefine the minimums for hiring and 250 TT 10 MEL get hired. Someone will aways take a flying job, if not the airlines will redefine the minimums to expand the pool. After 18 months you have 1000 turbine MEL and places like Cherry Air, Ameristar, etc. would be happy to talk to you and pay you around 25K-30K per year as a F/O. It is a free market, the players define the market, and in the end the customer will define the pay rate for pilots.

 

[WhiteCloud]

It is a free market, the players define the market, and in the end the customer will define the pay rate for pilots.

That's why school teachers, pilots, bus drivers, police, firemen etc. need unions. If you do a routine job year after year you'll never get a pay raise since the brand new college graduate of trade school grad can (purportedly) do the same job for less. The individual pilot realy has no say in bargaining for more pay. It's take it or leave it. ALPA and major airlines really screwed up when they allowed the outsourcing of jobs in the first place. It's coming back big time to haunt them. I think we also see regionals, courtesy of JO and friends, doing their own version of outsourcing. If regional pilots don't strike or stop working immediately when this happens the same deal will happen in the future.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Sorry guys, this is reality, and you've got no room to complain. If you can't stand the job, then move on and let someone who wants the job have it.

It's always some clown that flys around in a 172 for burgers that says this kind of stuff. A couple months in a regional cockpit will cure him of this attitude.

 

[secks]

It's always some clown that flys around in a 172 for burgers that says this kind of stuff. A couple months in a regional cockpit will cure him of this attitude.

A couple months of working as a freight train conductor will quickly cure your "poor me, boo hoo" attitude. Give it a few months and you'll be crying like a baby. The next time you're feeling sorry for yourself, do us all a favor and cry in that slop bucket you've got next to the computer. We don't want to hear it. Whenever you complain about low pay, look in the mirror for the person to blame. By accepting that wage, you've become part of the problem.

 

[Indypilot]

As an earlier poster said, I am suprised that the laws of supply and demand escape so many pilots. It comes down to this. If you charge more for tickets, you have less passengers. Less passengers means less planes, less planes means less pilots.

It's all in the economics, If ticket prices were still high, there would be lots of people who wouldn't fly. I always get a kick out of major FO whining about lowering the bar. Guess what, if prices weren't low, you wouldn't have a job. The only people immune would be those in the top 1/3rd of the seniority list. And even then only the top 1/6 would be making captains pay.

Airlines are an oligopoly, There is always incentive to lower prices as one company can achieve higher profits by doing so. Look at the way the majors operate, one increases prices by say $5 dollars, nobody else follows suit, and they retract the fare increase. It's simple, if nobody else follows suit, they will lose more business to the other carriers, than the fare increase will bring in. Airlines can collude with eachother as it is illegal, but even if they could, they would have nothing but a cartel, and as economic theory dictates, there is always more than enough incentive to cheat in a cartel, as it means more profits.

It simple, we could all have $400,000 a year salaries, but we would only have 2 airlines with about a 1000 pilots each, or we could have what we have today. The problem that arises with that is the non union carriers, if there was only 2 airlines regulated by one union, the non union carrier would come in and take all the profits out of the market. The laws of supply and demand dictate the market, but alpa still has some power left and can still extract some economic rents. That won't change for the foreseable future.

The ONLY way to get rid of this "problem" would be to have the government COMPLETELY regulate the industry again. The market is very powerful, competition has made this industry what it is today, If you don't like it, get out.

Before you start flaming away, I agree first year salaries are horrifically low, but the reason is simply, too many pilots, too few airplanes. Again it all comes down to supply and demand. Eventually the market will fix this in one of two ways, People who won't take the salaries offered will never become pilots or will quit their present position, thereby reducing the number of pilots available, or demand will increase to levels where the number of pilots match the number of seats. Unfortunatly, I don't see the latter happening because of competition. The demand for seats is increasing, but it is moving along the current demand curve (lower prices=more demand). What would need to happen to get back to what it was is a shift in the demand curve.

So the choice is simple, either let the government regulate, in which case, if pilots salaries are increased, many pilots would lose their jobs, or let the market do the talking. Eventually if airlines return to profitability, and a shortage of pilots occurs, even with the lower mins, the union will once again have the pricing power to increase pilot wages. If you believe the industry will correct itself from the current overcapacity situation, eventually there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[pilotyip]

Indy, what a great post!!

But you know the pilots can band together as brothers and get congress to repeal this stupid law of supply and demand. Adam Smith figured it out over 200 years ago, and it still works.

 

[J32driver]

By accepting that wage, you've become part of the problem.

Alright smart guy... what is an individual pilot supposed to do? How do I NOT accept a wage? Only way I could do that would be to leave my flying career for something else. That will mean more school, more debt, and a job that I will probably hate.

What do you think happens when I don't "accept" my wage. The 400 pilots below me slide up 1 # in seniority and then 1 person gets to start at a regional for $20,000. Do the airlines care that I quit? Did I make an earthshattering statement by giving up my job? Will the company run out and hand the pilots a higher wage because I quit?

I know... all the pilots at my company should stand together, right? Well... the government would call that an "illegal job action" and then the courts would bankrupt my company union with lawsuits. Yep... that was a brilliant idea. How much did the American pilots union get slapped for a couple years ago?

I know... we'll wait until contract negotiations and then strike until we get the wages we want. Well, after the contract is signed, my company will lose the flying and it will be handed to the lowest bidder who will eagerly pick up the extra flying with their 200 hour low time pilots that make $17,000 and can't negotiate a new contract for 5 years.

OH WAIT... I know... I'll just stop responding to people who ARE NOT WORKING IN THIS INDUSTRY AND DON'T HAVE A FREAKING CLUE HOW THINGS WORK IN THE REAL WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Caveman]

Secks posted:

"When I hear pilots complain about working conditions, all I have to do is think about rail workers who endure extensive training, earn $40k per year, sleep 5 hours a day, are on the job 14 hours a day, perform physical labor, and are on call 24/7. Or the police officers and nurses out there who pull horrible shifts, risk their lives, deal with human scum, and earn about what regional pilots do."


If your job is so bad why do you agree to do it? In your own words: "Whenever you complain about low pay, look in the mirror for the person to blame. By accepting that wage, you've become part of the problem." and " If you can't stand the job, then move on and let someone who wants the job have it."

Extensive training? Compared to what? I'm not belittling railroad workers but don't even try to compare a conductor with any pilot. Engineer, maybe, I don't know what exactly is involved, but I'd be shocked to find out that your 'extensive training' is comparable to what a pro pilot has to do. I readily admit I could be way off base on this but I'm willing to bet that there isn't much of a real comparison.

Let's see, you work 14 and sleep 5. Why couldn't you grab a couple more hours of sleep out of the 5 hours left in the day?

On call 24/7? Isn't there some sort of rest requirements for railway workers just like there is for truckers and pilots? I'm betting that during that 24/7 period you are being compensated in some way for being available, right?

I don't usually criticize someone's opinion based on their profile but in this case I'm making an exception. I really don't know squat about a railway workers job, compensation or the industry as a whole. Based on your profile it would be easy to assume you are equally as ignorant about the airline business. Based on your post I'm convinced that you don't have a clue at all. You stick to driving trains and complaining about it and we'll stick to flying airliners and complaining about it. Deal?

 

[Indypilot]

But you know the pilots can band together as brothers and get congress to repeal this stupid law of supply and demand. Adam Smith figured it out over 200 years ago, and it still works.

Pilotyip, how exactly did adam smith, in wealth of nations, figure it out? What of that applies to pilots today? (not flaming, just trying to figure out where you are going with this as Mr. smiths theories are many in numbers and im trying to figure out which specific ones you are refering to)

 

[46Driver]

Be careful what you ask for. If it is for government regulation, the same regs that would raise the minimum salary of pilots could also cap the top amount. The American working man does not "want to see us taken advantage of" but by the same token, you are going to have an extremely difficult time convincing the taxpayer to subsidize airline pilots making more than the more dangerous and hardship filled job of military pilots.

Choose your poison wisely.

 

[Bluto]

Your post kinda bummed me out.
--Sometimes the truth hurts.
I maybe be going out on a limb here, but maybe things are the way there are because of your type of attitude.
--Yep, pretty far out on the limb. Things are the way they are because of a competetive market coupled with the seniority system.
Captains not supporting junior pilots is sad.
--I disagree. There is a fixed amount of funds available for pilot salaries in any given company. Why should they redistribute those funds to the newest employees and take it away from the senior ones? Generally, the senior pilots are the ones with the most expenses (kids, house, 1st, 2nd, and sometimes 3rd wives to support...) If, knowing what beginning regional salaries are, you can't budget to support yourself for that first 17k year, you can't afford a career in aviation. Don't expect senior pilots who have already lived within their means to take a hit to support you.
You should see all the flight crews in your company as a team. Very little can be done by the individual. When you all stand together, things get done. Yes Bluto, saying "enough is enough" will change things. You all just need to say it together and very loud.
--That's a beautiful idea. Now show a single example of this in the real world. In this industry. Holding hands and singing cumbaya makes no difference.
Oh..and by the way, the public will support you when they learn about the starting salaries. The American working man never likes to hear about some other worker being taking at advantage of.
--If you really believe this I feel sorry for you. Individuals will feel sorry for you. Friends at partys will share your outrage at the pittance you earn. "How dare they!" they'll say. Then, next week when they go on a trip they'll choose the airline with the lowest ticket prices, regardless of how well they compensate their pilots, and enjoy their flight. The general public doesn't care how much you earn.

Mike, I mean no offense and I'm really sorry if I'm bumming you out. It bothers me when people assume they have a new idea on how to 'fix' the pay situation in this industry. Do you honestly think you're the first one to come up with "Enough is enough!"??? There are some pretty bright people out there working on our contracts. I don't suggest that we give up, by any means. But being unrealistic about our situation only distracts from the true goal. Just saying you're mad as hell and you're not going to take it anymore does nothing for anyone in this industry. Talk to some people on this board who left the regionals on principle because they wouldn't fly for so little. See how well they impacted the industry. You honestly think the public cares about our salaries? Did you catch the USA today featuring this ad? :
"Continental Express Pilots
We are professional pilots and we deserve a contract that reflects this.
2,500 Professional Airline Pilots
Instrumental in making their company 2003 Regional Airline of the Year by safely transporting over 50,000 passengers daily to more than 130 destinations in the United States, Canada, and Mexico.

$17,600 - starting annual salary

Some of the professional pilots of Continental Express must do more than just fly airplanes in order to feed their families. Along with safely flying your airplane, the might work in a restaurant or in the retail industry. The might also proudly server our country in the military.

Please support the men and women who fly for Continental Express Airlines as they continue negotiations for a new contract.

Paid for by Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l."
--Remember the outraged letters to the editor of USA today? Remember the drastic reduction in people flying on COEX as a result? Angry letters to the CEO Mr. Ream? No? Neither do I. Why not? People don't care. The public is not going to solve our pay problem. Only we can do that, incrementally and with each contract.

 

[pilotyip]

This will get you a raise

When F/O turnover training costs exceed the cost of giving a pay raise to reduce turnover, then the management will look at increasing pay. We had a situation where turnover was killing us, approaching a 50% per year, F/O made $24K as a DA-20 F/O, we raised it to $33K and turnover became manageable. The reduction in training costs paid for a great part of the pay raise. Now back in 1999 the job market was hot and movement was easy, everyone leaving had another job. So to make this work, you have to start looking for a job the day you go on line, and then take the first job that comes up to show the company you mean business. This could be cargo F/O, CFI, anything. Remember you are not leaving for a better job or better pay, but to show mangement they have to raise the pay. If the company sees turnover approaching a certain level they will have to act. This rapid turnover will not only effect training costs but schedule completion. The guys leaving may not benefit from it, but the brother hood will benefit in the future due to sacrifices of those who gave up there jobs for the cause. To those few, "For those who shed their jobs with me will be my brother," (a little parapharsed Shakespeare for drama) pilots throughout the world will raise their glasses and say "I wonder what ever happen to those guys who left XYZ"? It worked for the pilots here, it should work for pilots everywhere, who is going to be first?

 

[ebaybob]

Just a thought...may have been mentioned before or may already be in place...

Why don't we give pilots votes in contract negotiations based on seniority. For example, 15 year pilots have 15 votes and 1st year pilots have 1 vote. Although this may skew pay scales toward more senior pilots it may also preserve higher paying positions to "move into" and make the industry more attractive to talented individuals. Many corporations now employ something similar when voting for directors and voting on shareholder resolutions.

Comments? Has this been done before? What was the outcome?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[Sticky]

You should see all the flight crews in your company as a team. Very little can be done by the individual. When you all stand together, things get done. Yes Bluto, saying "enough is enough" will change things. You all just need to say it together and very loud.
--

That's a beautiful idea. Now show a single example of this in the real world. In this industry. Holding hands and singing cumbaya makes no difference.

Bluto, you have got to be kidding me. First of all, can you really not think of a time that pilots, flight attendants, or mechanics have stood together at their work entrance saying "enough is enough"? That is exactly the way, and the ONLY way you will ever improve things at work. Do you think management is going to voluntarily make work life better for you? Obviously a strike is the last resort; hopefully your negotiators will fix the problem.

Oh..and by the way, the public will support you when they learn about the starting salaries. The American working man never likes to hear about some other worker being taking at advantage of.
--

If you really believe this I feel sorry for you. Individuals will feel sorry for you. Friends at partys will share your outrage at the pittance you earn. "How dare they!" they'll say. Then, next week when they go on a trip they'll choose the airline with the lowest ticket prices, regardless of how well they compensate their pilots, and enjoy their flight. The general public doesn't care how much you earn.

Bluto, I was implying the day that pilots refuse to work, and force the cancellations of hundreds of flights. At first, the passengers will be very upset. However, when they learn why you are doing it, they'll probably completely understand. In fact, the anger will shift from the pilots to the management.

Mike, I mean no offense and I'm really sorry if I'm bumming you out. It bothers me when people assume they have a new idea on how to 'fix' the pay situation in this industry. Do you honestly think you're the first one to come up with "Enough is enough!"??? There are some pretty bright people out there working on our contracts.

Of course I realize that these are not "new" ways of fixing problems. My point is that this is typically the only way to change things. I really don't understand the confusion here. What do you think Comair did? How about Mesaba? It was the pilots to changed things. Don't forget all the majors in the past 30 years who have done it too. Bluto, the reason I feel so strongly on these topics is because I fear that the young pilots don't realize how much they can do. It really does seem like they have the "oh well" attitude.

 

[J32driver]

Sticky... go to page 2 and read my post... cause you don't get it either!

What part about "illegal job action" confuses you. People will get fired and the bankrupt union won't be able to protect them.

 

[Sticky]

J32driver-

I did read your post, and yes that is obviously an important consideration. I do realize that there are catches in the system. I'll admit that since I've never had a union or worked for an airline, my views and feelings toward the issue may be misinformed. Needless to say, that's the reason I posted the first question in the thread. I'm looking for information from people actually working in the regionals. I'd be interested to learning more about the history of failed union actions too.

 

[Indypilot]

"the reason I feel so strongly on these topics is because I fear that the young pilots don't realize how much they can do."

Ok, what are you saying they do? lets suppose they do band together and eventually get higher wages, those higher wages have to be paid for so one of two things will happen, either profits will be lower, causing stock price to take a dump, limiting future expansion as access to capital markets is severly restricted, or losses are futher widend and the carrier goes bankrupt and everyone loses their job. The other way to pay for the new higher wages would be to pass them along to the consumer. The problem is right now we are on the wrong side of the demand curve causing prices to be extemely elastic. In other words, a small increase in prices will cause a large decrease in passengers. So the carrier can try, however if they raised prices, they would lose tons of passengers, and the result is lower profits or wider losses, and the above happens. So by banding together and increasing wages, you just lost the bottom 20% of the pilot group in this country. So now answer this question, would you rather take a 5% paycut, or a 100% paycut. I know what your response would be, the junior pilots should just suck it up and get furloughed so everyone else gets higher wages. Try explaining that to the wife and kids of these guys.

The economic realities are harsh, there really is nothing any one person or group of people can do long term to artificially inflate wages in a free market economy. So as my earlier post stated, the only way to fix the problem would be to regulate the entire industry again. So lets suppose the government steps in and regulates all 121 carriers. Ticket prices go up, half the pilots in the country lose their jobs, and the remaining pilots get paid more. Cool, here is the problem with that, eventually the subsitution effect would get a hold of the industry. Some genious will order 300 mini jets and starts an air taxi service with ticket prices cheaper than the government regulated Airline ticket prices, airlines start losing money hand over fist and more pilots lose jobs. So the answer to that, start regulating that industry, well eventually, you would have to regulate everything in the transportation industry, and then eventually you have a communist country. No thanks.

No matter how you slice the pie, it is only so big. The size of the pie depends on consumer demand. So it boils down to this, you will take what the market is offering, or you will get out and do something else with your life.

 

[Bluto]

Ok, maybe I can clarify.

Bluto, you have got to be kidding me. First of all, can you really not think of a time that pilots, flight attendants, or mechanics have stood together at their work entrance saying "enough is enough"? That is exactly the way, and the ONLY way you will ever improve things at work. Do you think management is going to voluntarily make work life better for you? Obviously a strike is the last resort; hopefully your negotiators will fix the problem.
--When Comair went on strike they raised the bar for themselves. Their contract was by no means earth-shattering, but they did have a number of factors working against them (multiple DAL feeders, etc.). All things considered, I consider their strike to have been very effective, relatively speaking. Unfortunately, it still didn't do what many expected it to do; revolutionize industry pay.


Bluto, I was implying the day that pilots refuse to work, and force the cancellations of hundreds of flights. At first, the passengers will be very upset. However, when they learn why you are doing it, they'll probably completely understand. In fact, the anger will shift from the pilots to the management.
--I can see why you would think this. Unfortunately, it is simply wrong! You don't have to look very hard at what happens when airlines go on strike to realize this. A few passengers (probably union-members themselves) will likely express concern over the poor pay, but the average "Joe-passenger" really doesn't care.

Of course I realize that these are not "new" ways of fixing problems. My point is that this is typically the only way to change things. I really don't understand the confusion here. What do you think Comair did? How about Mesaba? It was the pilots to changed things. Don't forget all the majors in the past 30 years who have done it too. Bluto, the reason I feel so strongly on these topics is because I fear that the young pilots don't realize how much they can do. It really does seem like they have the "oh well" attitude.
--What you are refering to here is the system that has been in place essentially since ALPA came into being, even before that with the RLA. I never suggested that we should give up on this system. On the contrary, you seem to be the one advocating a change in how we approach the labor/management relationship. Look at ExpressJet's negotiations. It is a very long-term process. It's quite a bit more complicated than simply stating that you're not going to take it anymore. For better or worse, our legal system simply doesn't allow that kind of flexibility and "voting with your feet" by leaving the company only works in extreme circumstances as described by Pilotyip. Even then, the industry has to be in a position where new alternative jobs are readily available for this to be an option.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Halfmoon, please read this. This is how you stop from what you just said from happening.



Right on Mike. Hate to repeat myself, but its up to the pilots to force their companies pass along the expense of having professional flight crews to the American consumer. Perhaps it sounds too simple, but all it would take is a 3 or 4 dollar per ticket increase. If the flight crews (FA & Pilots) split that, everyone’s pay would increase by thousands. The only problem is getting all your competitors to do the same. That’s were your union should be helping you. As far as enforcing it, isn't that what the little black book is for? It may sound cruel, but their should be a list of pilots (whether they're 22 and right out of ERAU or 45 and out of the military) that have proven they're willing to under cut you by working for peanuts. That list means that they will never see a union job, or even a jump seat on your airline. That should be a deterrent for pilots to work at those companies. Even if it means getting a temporary non-flying job until things get better. In the end guys, even with the harsh rules of the "little black book", it will be good for all pilots.

Mike

We've already tried the "raise the crew's pay and pass the cost on to the pasengers" thing. It's called Delta Air Lines, perhaps you've heard of them? Perhaps you've also seen some recent SEC filings that would tell you how well that little experiment has been working for them.

I've long stated that Econ 101 should be required for every American to graduate high school. That would eliminate this thread, as well as the Democrat party for that matter.