How low will you go?

[Sticky]

Blzr-

Hehehe....airplanes are good for more then just passengers and cargo. I'm a little cautious to say what I do or who I work for. The last thing I need is for some interviewer to read this stuff, then down the road connect the dots.

 

[blzr]

ok. just curious. My only other guess would be skydivers or banner tow. most regionals don't care what or where you flew, only that you have the mins and they like you. oh, and if you will work for their pay rates.

 

[flyby]

Very simple answer. Gross overabundance of pilots and lots of 200 hour multi guys out there that would sell their grandmother to get that job for $17k a year in hopes of moving up. And then there are the senior union guys that could prevent that, but the company knows all they have to do is keep the 51% relatively satisfied know that they'll sell out the bottom 49%. And it doesn't matter if it's a regional union or major union. Look at the ridiculous 16 year contract that AE ALPA signed.

Find out what a NY City Bus Driver, or a trash collector makes as compared to a regional F/O based in NYC.

The public doesn't give a rat's behind about anything other than price of a plane ticket. Only if planes start crashing do they care about experience, maintenance, or safety. And even then, heck, that happened to someone else . . . screw 'em.

This guy (Draginass) is exactly right. As a CFI I made between 12 and 17 an hour depending on the school. I never made more than 6000 or so in any year. Now I make 21 an hour flying an RJ. I also get travel and health benefits. This job is better than my last, even at 21/hour.

What I don't understand is why the concept of supply and demand seems to escape so many of my fellow pilots. Furthermore, many of us complain that the public should somehow be appalled that we're only making 17k/year. As Draginass said, the public could give a shiznit what we make. Pilots are commodities, pure and simple. Pegs to fill holes. Why buy a $3000 Dell computer when you can buy the same computer with a different name for half that and it does the same job? Commodity.

Finally, dude, if you're wearing shorts and sandals to work making 55-110k (the range of salaries the Captains I fly with earn) then you would be a fool to quit that gig.

good luck!

 

[Sticky]

Finally, dude, if you're wearing shorts and sandals to work making 55-110k (the range of salaries the Captains I fly with earn) then you would be a fool to quit that gig.

Well...OK...I don't make that, I was implying the caps that make in the high 30s, low 40s.

Flyby-



Thanks for the response. Although I understand your arguments, I must disagree. Just because your new "jet job" paid you more then CFIing, doesn't make it right. You shouldn't feel that since you made 6000 a year instructing, 17,000 is somehow OK. Where do you draw the line? Would you have done it for 12,000 a year? That’s still better then CFIing. I don't mean to attack you, but I just think that is the attitude that causes the low pay. I realize that pilots are a dime a dozen, but that shouldn't mean they all must live on food stamp wage.

 

[flyby]

Sticky,

This career for the majority of us follows a progression. Regardless of money the drive to move to the next level is very powerful. Making those steps can be quite fulfilling... makes ya feel good to accomplish your goals. Pay me a little more and put me in a plane that more closely represents my ultimate goal and you can see why so many pilots are lined up to work for lowish wages. Now, however, with the retreat in salaries you find some of the 'stepping stone' jobs pay well comparatively speaking and makes people like yourself wonder why you should ever leave. Who could blame you? Just depends on what you want out of your flying career.

As for your question, if this job paid only 12k a year I might still take it but be a lot more inclined to leave it and return to being a CFI. You can see this same attitude in many pilots... anxious to hit the line with the engines spooled up and fairly soon realize that 'living the dream' isn't paying well. But then again, maybe that's why it doesn't pay 12k a year. If regional airlines lowered their salaries to 12k/year they would have a hard time finding pilots. The market is figuring out what newhires should make. Each one of us makes up this market.

once again, good luck!!

 

[secks]

Some questions for all you guys in the regional world. Please keep in mind I mean no disrespect. After months reading all the posts about regional pilot pay, I'm finally stumped and have to ask these questions. Keep in mind I'm a commercial pilot too, but don't fly passengers or cargo.

1. Why does it seem like there is a competition to see who can do the other pilots job for less?

Isn't it obvious? It's called competition, and it is particularly noticable when pilot supply far exceeds pilot demand. If you were desperate for a job and weren't the best qualified applicant, wouldn't it make sense to offer your services at a lower rate in order to compete? Nobody seems to complain when masons or framers are displaced by cheap illegal mexican migrant labor. What makes pilots so special? Lives in their hands? No: 1) Only some pilots transport human cargo. 2) Bus drivers and nurses are also responsible for humans. Not much of an outcry on their behalf, now is there?

I find it hard to sympathize with pilots when they exercised free choice and plunged into an extremely expensive, competitive occupation. When I hear pilots complain about working conditions, all I have to do is think about rail workers who endure extensive training, earn $40k per year, sleep 5 hours a day, are on the job 14 hours a day, perform physical labor, and are on call 24/7. Or the police officers and nurses out there who pull horrible shifts, risk their lives, deal with human scum, and earn about what regional pilots do. Sorry guys, this is reality, and you've got no room to complain. If you can't stand the job, then move on and let someone who wants the job have it.

 

[pilotyip]

Remember late 2000

A pilot shortage was starting to develope, the regional airlines were having trouble finding enought 1200 TT, 500 MEL candidates, so what did they do raise the wages to attract more quailifed pilots, no way, they redefine the minimums for hiring and 250 TT 10 MEL get hired. Someone will aways take a flying job, if not the airlines will redefine the minimums to expand the pool. After 18 months you have 1000 turbine MEL and places like Cherry Air, Ameristar, etc. would be happy to talk to you and pay you around 25K-30K per year as a F/O. It is a free market, the players define the market, and in the end the customer will define the pay rate for pilots.

 

[WhiteCloud]

It is a free market, the players define the market, and in the end the customer will define the pay rate for pilots.

That's why school teachers, pilots, bus drivers, police, firemen etc. need unions. If you do a routine job year after year you'll never get a pay raise since the brand new college graduate of trade school grad can (purportedly) do the same job for less. The individual pilot realy has no say in bargaining for more pay. It's take it or leave it. ALPA and major airlines really screwed up when they allowed the outsourcing of jobs in the first place. It's coming back big time to haunt them. I think we also see regionals, courtesy of JO and friends, doing their own version of outsourcing. If regional pilots don't strike or stop working immediately when this happens the same deal will happen in the future.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Sorry guys, this is reality, and you've got no room to complain. If you can't stand the job, then move on and let someone who wants the job have it.

It's always some clown that flys around in a 172 for burgers that says this kind of stuff. A couple months in a regional cockpit will cure him of this attitude.

 

[secks]

It's always some clown that flys around in a 172 for burgers that says this kind of stuff. A couple months in a regional cockpit will cure him of this attitude.

A couple months of working as a freight train conductor will quickly cure your "poor me, boo hoo" attitude. Give it a few months and you'll be crying like a baby. The next time you're feeling sorry for yourself, do us all a favor and cry in that slop bucket you've got next to the computer. We don't want to hear it. Whenever you complain about low pay, look in the mirror for the person to blame. By accepting that wage, you've become part of the problem.

 

[Indypilot]

As an earlier poster said, I am suprised that the laws of supply and demand escape so many pilots. It comes down to this. If you charge more for tickets, you have less passengers. Less passengers means less planes, less planes means less pilots.

It's all in the economics, If ticket prices were still high, there would be lots of people who wouldn't fly. I always get a kick out of major FO whining about lowering the bar. Guess what, if prices weren't low, you wouldn't have a job. The only people immune would be those in the top 1/3rd of the seniority list. And even then only the top 1/6 would be making captains pay.

Airlines are an oligopoly, There is always incentive to lower prices as one company can achieve higher profits by doing so. Look at the way the majors operate, one increases prices by say $5 dollars, nobody else follows suit, and they retract the fare increase. It's simple, if nobody else follows suit, they will lose more business to the other carriers, than the fare increase will bring in. Airlines can collude with eachother as it is illegal, but even if they could, they would have nothing but a cartel, and as economic theory dictates, there is always more than enough incentive to cheat in a cartel, as it means more profits.

It simple, we could all have $400,000 a year salaries, but we would only have 2 airlines with about a 1000 pilots each, or we could have what we have today. The problem that arises with that is the non union carriers, if there was only 2 airlines regulated by one union, the non union carrier would come in and take all the profits out of the market. The laws of supply and demand dictate the market, but alpa still has some power left and can still extract some economic rents. That won't change for the foreseable future.

The ONLY way to get rid of this "problem" would be to have the government COMPLETELY regulate the industry again. The market is very powerful, competition has made this industry what it is today, If you don't like it, get out.

Before you start flaming away, I agree first year salaries are horrifically low, but the reason is simply, too many pilots, too few airplanes. Again it all comes down to supply and demand. Eventually the market will fix this in one of two ways, People who won't take the salaries offered will never become pilots or will quit their present position, thereby reducing the number of pilots available, or demand will increase to levels where the number of pilots match the number of seats. Unfortunatly, I don't see the latter happening because of competition. The demand for seats is increasing, but it is moving along the current demand curve (lower prices=more demand). What would need to happen to get back to what it was is a shift in the demand curve.

So the choice is simple, either let the government regulate, in which case, if pilots salaries are increased, many pilots would lose their jobs, or let the market do the talking. Eventually if airlines return to profitability, and a shortage of pilots occurs, even with the lower mins, the union will once again have the pricing power to increase pilot wages. If you believe the industry will correct itself from the current overcapacity situation, eventually there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[pilotyip]

Indy, what a great post!!

But you know the pilots can band together as brothers and get congress to repeal this stupid law of supply and demand. Adam Smith figured it out over 200 years ago, and it still works.

 

[J32driver]

By accepting that wage, you've become part of the problem.

Alright smart guy... what is an individual pilot supposed to do? How do I NOT accept a wage? Only way I could do that would be to leave my flying career for something else. That will mean more school, more debt, and a job that I will probably hate.

What do you think happens when I don't "accept" my wage. The 400 pilots below me slide up 1 # in seniority and then 1 person gets to start at a regional for $20,000. Do the airlines care that I quit? Did I make an earthshattering statement by giving up my job? Will the company run out and hand the pilots a higher wage because I quit?

I know... all the pilots at my company should stand together, right? Well... the government would call that an "illegal job action" and then the courts would bankrupt my company union with lawsuits. Yep... that was a brilliant idea. How much did the American pilots union get slapped for a couple years ago?

I know... we'll wait until contract negotiations and then strike until we get the wages we want. Well, after the contract is signed, my company will lose the flying and it will be handed to the lowest bidder who will eagerly pick up the extra flying with their 200 hour low time pilots that make $17,000 and can't negotiate a new contract for 5 years.

OH WAIT... I know... I'll just stop responding to people who ARE NOT WORKING IN THIS INDUSTRY AND DON'T HAVE A FREAKING CLUE HOW THINGS WORK IN THE REAL WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Caveman]

Secks posted:

"When I hear pilots complain about working conditions, all I have to do is think about rail workers who endure extensive training, earn $40k per year, sleep 5 hours a day, are on the job 14 hours a day, perform physical labor, and are on call 24/7. Or the police officers and nurses out there who pull horrible shifts, risk their lives, deal with human scum, and earn about what regional pilots do."


If your job is so bad why do you agree to do it? In your own words: "Whenever you complain about low pay, look in the mirror for the person to blame. By accepting that wage, you've become part of the problem." and " If you can't stand the job, then move on and let someone who wants the job have it."

Extensive training? Compared to what? I'm not belittling railroad workers but don't even try to compare a conductor with any pilot. Engineer, maybe, I don't know what exactly is involved, but I'd be shocked to find out that your 'extensive training' is comparable to what a pro pilot has to do. I readily admit I could be way off base on this but I'm willing to bet that there isn't much of a real comparison.

Let's see, you work 14 and sleep 5. Why couldn't you grab a couple more hours of sleep out of the 5 hours left in the day?

On call 24/7? Isn't there some sort of rest requirements for railway workers just like there is for truckers and pilots? I'm betting that during that 24/7 period you are being compensated in some way for being available, right?

I don't usually criticize someone's opinion based on their profile but in this case I'm making an exception. I really don't know squat about a railway workers job, compensation or the industry as a whole. Based on your profile it would be easy to assume you are equally as ignorant about the airline business. Based on your post I'm convinced that you don't have a clue at all. You stick to driving trains and complaining about it and we'll stick to flying airliners and complaining about it. Deal?

 

[Indypilot]

But you know the pilots can band together as brothers and get congress to repeal this stupid law of supply and demand. Adam Smith figured it out over 200 years ago, and it still works.

Pilotyip, how exactly did adam smith, in wealth of nations, figure it out? What of that applies to pilots today? (not flaming, just trying to figure out where you are going with this as Mr. smiths theories are many in numbers and im trying to figure out which specific ones you are refering to)