How is Life at Gojets?

[redbook]

well said motch

 

[redbook]

As a former United guy who has seen much of United's domestic flying go to TSA and others I have this to say: it seems to me many regional airline pilots had no trouble taking flying away from United mainline flying on shorter routes keeping United pilots on furlough longer after 2001 (SAT used to be a United 737), had no trouble flying AWAC routes for United at O'Hare when your management underbid AWAC, and now you have the gaul to call out Go Jets for doing what you did. Did a United or AWAC pilot ever turn a TSA guy down for a jumpseat? Maybe they should have.

Regionals at United picked up 20-30 precent of the domestic flying depending on the time of year. STL, SAT, COS, three flights a day to IAD, and Montreal are not feeder routes, these were flights flown by Mainline. Mainline United took two 737's off ORD to IAD and replaced the with three RJ flights (nearly equal number of seats, lower paid pilots). United also did something similar in COS.

TSA was willing to take routes for lower wages than mainline United, and TSA ERJ pilots happily flew them. TSA booted AWAC out of ORD by bidding lower and TSA pilots happily flew those routes too. Where were your principles when it came to United 737 and A319 pilots or AWAC BAe-146 guys? AWAC was at ORD for the 19 years. TSA, Mesa, and Skywset came in and underbid AWAC just like Go Jet underbid TSA. TSA was willing to fly United Mainline routes for less than half the pay a United FO makes. Well no wonder you fly ORD to IAD or ORD to DFW instead of places like Evansville and Champaign like in the old days. It is also why 43% of the United domestic flights out of ORD are UAX. Your company underbid mainline pilots, then you fly around in United colors, using United's reservation system to fill your planes, using United ground crews, and try to say that somehow you are better than Go Jet. Do you see how giving domestic flying to regionals has kept United pilots on furlough? Now what you did to United is being done to you. You have benefitted from flying in United colors. You probably dropped the "Express" part of United Express when talking to girls at a bar. Now you come on here and speak with such self indignation about denying Go Jet pilots jumpseats and how much better you are than Go Jet. Look in the mirror, what routes are you flying today that were flown by United or AWAC? Has a United or AWAC pilot ever denied a TSA guy a jumpseat? Probably not. Its time you mature and cut the vendetta stuff and realize the nature of the industry you are in.

I understand that that is the law of the jungle and I accept it, and I have never blamed a regional airline pilot for taking jobs away from anyone. Nor would I ever deny a jumpseat to TSA, Mesa, or Skywest. I just can't stand the hypocrisy of the guys on here claiming they are better than Go Jet and making excuses like United pilots didn't want to fly 50 seat aircraft and that everything was just wonderful when you booted AWAC out of ORD. Give me a break!!!

Sometimes you need to look at the plank in your own eye before looking at the speck in your brothers eye.

You are right we should have just bent over to Hulas and extended our contract to infinity, agreed to extend 50 seat rates for 160 seat aircraft, waived any work rules.....

So what is your point? We fought. Get a clue.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

That's your rebuttal? You didn't get the point? You got your ass kicked by AirCobra by his post and your response was a one-liner. Heh. I thought you were a better debater than that.

AirCobra stated the same thing I did. EVERY regional pilot is a whore to the industry, as all of that flying should be main line flying. Yet, you do it - you are/were a regional whore. EVERY pilot who takes a regional job HURTS "the profession". If you go to Europe the AVERAGE salary of an EMB-145 starting salary F.O. is around $67k, and Captains are well into 6 figures. EVERY regional is a whore in the United States you pompous bastards. GoJet is no different than any other regional, it was just the TSA pilots who got burned (by their own vote, as they had a choice, unlike what happened to the regionals when Freedom or Compass was formed) instead of mainline - they gambled, and as sometimes happened, management got the upper hand. It was a win-win for management and they let the TSA pilots choose which way it would go, and quite frankly, from the whole story, I think they knew the pilots would choose the choice they did, and now they do not have to protect higher paying TSA jobs, and now more pilots will be on the street. That's what was on the table, and that's how it went down. Again, the situation had nothing to do with the pilots at Gojet, it was management.

Why didn't ALPA put out a formal protest and ban interviewing and accepting jobs at Gojet if the mere working at that company is unethical? If they did that, no pilots would interview there. They did not. They STILL have not. They WILL not. Because those jobs are NOT unethical, or at least not any less ethical than any other regional job. To "pick" on the many pilots who are now going there (all who are furloughed from elsewhere now) is ludicrous and accomplishes nothing. GoJet jobs are jobs. There are THOUSANDS of airline pilots on the street, most of them major airline pilots who will probably never see big iron again. These regional whore selfish bastards would rather have these guys still standing in bread lines than taking an industry-average regional job and putting at least SOME bread on the table - in a union job, at that. Moronic attitude, there, and extremely selfish, as working at GoJet does not dilute the "strength" of the regional force nor lower the "bar" any, in fact they pay better than Mesa and are competitive in their regional (whore) wage.

I do not blame the TSA pilots for voting down the single list due to what the company tried to sneak in. Good for them, they made a stand and protected their contract without lowering "the bar". That decision cost them the ability to flow into GoJet and maintain some seniority. More pilots rather than less will now be on the street (although GoJet is hiring TSA pilots as new-hires, now). They did what their pilot group thinks is the right thing. I personally have mixed feelings but the argument supported is strong on why they voted no, and as I already stated, I too probably would have voted it down, even if it cost me my job. To point fingers at a Gojet pilot and say that they are "stealing" from a TSA pilot though? Ridiculous, and ignorant talk from regional pilots who do not understand that they are flying stolen flying themselves.

The attitude some of these guys have from TSA regarding GoJet pilots is assinine and immature, and completely hypocritical. They need someone to be angry at. The anger should be toward management, not the pilots of GoJet, but that won't change, so oh well. Be upset. I'm certainly not worried about it, and neither do most mainline pilots. No picket lines were crossed, no work is struck work. Grow up.

 

[redbook]

That's your rebuttal? You didn't get the point? You got your ass kicked by AirCobra by his post and your response was a one-liner. Heh. I thought you were a better debater than that.

AirCobra stated the same thing I did. EVERY regional pilot is a whore to the industry, as all of that flying should be main line flying. Yet, you do it - you are/were a regional whore. EVERY pilot who takes a regional job HURTS "the profession". If you go to Europe the AVERAGE salary of an EMB-145 starting salary F.O. is around $67k, and Captains are well into 6 figures. EVERY regional is a whore in the United States you pompous bastards. GoJet is no different than any other regional, it was just the TSA pilots who got burned (by their own vote, as they had a choice, unlike what happened to the regionals when Freedom or Compass was formed) instead of mainline - they gambled, and as sometimes happened, management got the upper hand. It was a win-win for management and they let the TSA pilots choose which way it would go, and quite frankly, from the whole story, I think they knew the pilots would choose the choice they did, and now they do not have to protect higher paying TSA jobs, and now more pilots will be on the street. That's what was on the table, and that's how it went down. Again, the situation had nothing to do with the pilots at Gojet, it was management.

Why didn't ALPA put out a formal protest and ban interviewing and accepting jobs at Gojet if the mere working at that company is unethical? If they did that, no pilots would interview there. They did not. They STILL have not. They WILL not. Because those jobs are NOT unethical, or at least not any less ethical than any other regional job. To "pick" on the many pilots who are now going there (all who are furloughed from elsewhere now) is ludicrous and accomplishes nothing. GoJet jobs are jobs. There are THOUSANDS of airline pilots on the street, most of them major airline pilots who will probably never see big iron again. These regional whore selfish bastards would rather have these guys still standing in bread lines than taking an industry-average regional job and putting at least SOME bread on the table - in a union job, at that. Moronic attitude, there, and extremely selfish, as working at GoJet does not dilute the "strength" of the regional force nor lower the "bar" any, in fact they pay better than Mesa and are competitive in their regional (whore) wage.

The attitude some of these guys have from TSA regarding GoJet pilots is assinine and immature, and completely hypocritical. They need someone to be angry at. The anger should be toward management, not the pilots of GoJet, but that won't change, so oh well. Be upset. I'm certainly not worried about it, and neither do most mainline pilots. No picket lines were crossed, no work is struck work. Grow up.

Jeez, I wish you well and you get belligerent. ALPA dropped the ball. We agree.

Did you need mommy to tell you everything?

You know what you are doing is unethical, you just want it to be sanctioned by ALPA or Teamsters or whoever.

Grow up? Pot meet kettle.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

No, I and others have pointed out that it is not unethical, or that if it is, it is not any less unethical than any other regional (whore) job, as every regional flight is stealing flying from someone else, which was the entire point you missed yet again.

We are in disagreement, which is fine. I truly do respect the TSA guys and their fight, and their vote. I personally know what it is like to make a stand and lose your job over your union fight.

It is unrealistic and unfair however, to just assume because they didn't get what they wanted and pilots are getting furloughed that I shouldn't work there now as it is a completely separate airline, and ALPA NOR the Teamsters have said any different.

 

[lookin4better]

You have got to be the TOUGHEST internet guy I have ever seen. I bet you could beat up the hulk in an internet death match.

Seriously, you are probably the most arrogant, self-righteous internet tough-guy I've ever seen. Like you have any idea of the 'numerous guys' that did or did not get hired because of their affiliation with GoJet. It's almost not worth ripping on you... you do a better job of it yourself.

Always, the same old- "you'll never get hired" scare tactics.. hilarious, really.

totally true! just let redbook believe that....it makes him feel better....deep down he knows the truth and legacy carrier HR departments DO know the story and DO NOT care.....just let him have his fun.

 

[siucavflight]

Such children

 

[Tar Heel]

You are right we should have just bent over to Hulas and extended our contract to infinity, agreed to extend 50 seat rates for 160 seat aircraft, waived any work rules.....

So what is your point? We fought. Get a clue.

Wow. I bet you're a real joy to spend 4 days on the road with. Why don't you get a clue. People are on the street and looking for work. If GoJets is where they choose then so be it. Get over yourself you @$$.

 

[motch]

CX..
again, I guess you just don't get it.

We didn't ******************** up. We fought a battle for a just cause and we lost.

If needed, I would do it again.
There will always be pilots who justify going to work for people like Hulas and companies like GoJets. You and OS seem to be acouple of them. EO, SJ and DT were others..
MDW came on here to ask some serious questions. I respect that.
What he does with the info will be up to him.

If he chooses to go to GoJets he will have to live with that decision. But he should have all the info available to make that decision. And part of that info is realizing how and why GoJets got started and why there is hatred towards them.

Some people hate SouthWest, others JetBlue. I know of people who hate Continental (and not just right now.. lol) and others that hate Delta, UPS and Fedex.
Every has a reason and I have stated mine towards GoJet and the management of TSAH.

But "Wow I believe this is the first post where a TSA pilot admits they F#cked UP!" Not even close.

 

[redbook]

Wow. I bet you're a real joy to spend 4 days on the road with. Why don't you get a clue. People are on the street and looking for work. If GoJets is where they choose then so be it. Get over yourself you @$$.

ok spineless. I bet you are a joy bending over for management.

 

[AirCobra]

You are right we should have just bent over to Hulas and extended our contract to infinity, agreed to extend 50 seat rates for 160 seat aircraft, waived any work rules.....

So what is your point? We fought. Get a clue.

My point is TSA took flying away from mainline and AWAC. These are the routes you are flying right now. I don't care about your scope or your 50 seat rates. United management sold us and AWAC out and you are taking advantage of it. Look in the mirror before you go pointing fingers.

Nice job being part of the problem and complaining about it at the same time.

 

[ROSWELL41]

Guys, the same reasons you all give for going to GoJets could be used to justify crossing a picket line too. Remember, TSA pilots have families to feed as well. If I was on the street Mr. Options, what would you be saying if I took a job at FLOPS to 'feed my kids'? You can justify anything if you try hard enough. The simple fact that you are on this internet board arguing about it shows that at some level you are uncomfortable with your actions. If you are totally fine with GoJets, why the need to waste your time on here?

 

[ROSWELL41]

My point is TSA took flying away from mainline and AWAC. These are the routes you are flying right now. I don't care about your scope or your 50 seat rates. United management sold us and AWAC out and you are taking advantage of it. Look in the mirror before you go pointing fingers.

Nice job being part of the problem and complaining about it at the same time.

I agree with everything you have said. Why try to place the blame at the feet of TSA or SkyWest pilots? UAL pilots gave away scope. Plain and simple. I know they may have been trying to save other parts of the contract in doing so, but in turn they sold out the bottom of their seniority list. We regional pilots do not hold the cards, you mainline guys do. A few decisions made differently 15 years ago by people who are now long retired would have changed the landscape for the better today.

 

[redbook]

My point is TSA took flying away from mainline and AWAC. These are the routes you are flying right now. I don't care about your scope or your 50 seat rates. United management sold us and AWAC out and you are taking advantage of it. Look in the mirror before you go pointing fingers.

Nice job being part of the problem and complaining about it at the same time.

You are still clueless. I guess TSA is part of United Holdings and certain junior and management United pilots joined TSA to gain seniority and whipsaw....ahh forget it. You are too dense.

 

[AirCobra]

The end result is the same, is it not? You are flying United mainline routes beause your company was the lowest bidder on a contract that took flying away from higer paid pilots and gave it to lower paid pilots.

That is and was my point. I am not talking about the journey but the destination.

You keep talking about scopes and whipsaws. The was not the question posed to you by at least three different posters.

Answer finally: Are you or are you not flying former mainline routes for less money than a mainline pilot?

We all know the answer is yes, so you are benfitting from anothter pilots misfortune in getting screwed over by management. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! Face it already.

 

[ROSWELL41]

The end result is the same, is it not? You are flying United mainline routes beause your company was the lowest bidder on a contract that took flying away from higer paid pilots and gave it to lower paid pilots.

That is and was my point. I am not talking about the journey but the destination.

Again, what you're saying is true. I just believe the 'journey' is just as important as the 'destination'. Hopefully we can all keep history from repeating itself. I hope we can agree at least on that.

 

[redbook]

The end result is the same, is it not? You are flying United mainline routes beause your company was the lowest bidder on a contract that took flying away from higer paid pilots and gave it to lower paid pilots.

That is and was my point. I am not talking about the journey but the destination.

Air Cobra,

The journey is everything. If not then all the bankrupt airlines of years past could point fingers at any carrier (SWA?)that paid lower wages than they did.

An alter ego is one of the greatest risks to the seniority system and a union contract. That is why it is a separate case from all the other debates and battles in the industry, regional versus mainline, pft, etc...

 

[redbook]

Answer finally: Are you or are you not flying former mainline routes for less money than a mainline pilot?

We all know the answer is yes, so you are benfitting from anothter pilots misfortune in getting screwed over by management. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! Face it already.

The day UAL creates an alter ego flying A380's at 737 rates and I sign up to steal your seniority then I am the problem.

Until then go pound sand.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

... and round and round we go.

No one's opinions have changed here, fellas. Motch's post was spot on regarding everyone has their reasons for hating different airlines. Some pilots will hate Gojet pilots. I can live with that. From what it sounds like, some very senior Gojet pilots came over for a seniority grab vs. TSA pilots before the vote. Not cool. I however had nothing to do with any of that. Pointing a finger at me would be like pointing a finger at "any" continental pilot for being a scab when in fact most of those pilots are not scabs, or at XJ during the time XJ and EXA had their seniority issues when there was consolidation of Airlink flying and pilots moving from EXA to XJ (and was basically the major playing regional airlines against each other as usual, as is this case), etc. I wasn't there when any of that happened. But, if people want to hate me for that, if that makes them feel better about themselves, that's their problem, not mine.

GoJet is an opportunity for furloughed pilots to have employment in a time when virtually no one is hiring (SWA pool opened this week to fill up for class dates at least 18 months out, btw) and is a legitimate, separate airline from TSA, and proved so in court. Its existance was created to circumvent AA's strangle-hold on TSAH on flying aircraft larger than 50 seats for ANY carrier in a time when NO carrier wants 50 seat jets anymore, NOT to get around one pilot group's scope. Therefore, it is NOT an alter-ego airline, such as Freedom or Compass, which are.

 

[Tar Heel]

ok spineless. I bet you are a joy bending over for management.

Spineless? Ha ha. That's funny. I thought the military had a don't ask, don't tell policy as well?! I've done my time and paid my dues. I felt bad it played out the way it did. What's even more comical is this. Two guys with far more time and experience than you ask a valid question in regards to a potential job with a company. They're looking for information and not rant. Take a page from Motch. He may not agree with the decision but at least he is willing to engage in an open dialogue and discussion. Like I said before get over yourself.

 

[aussieflyboy]

Combo FO/CA? Does this mean you yank your own gear?

I'd be good at that. I yank my own gear nearly every day...

 

[rtmcfi]

That is and was my point. I am not talking about the journey but the destination.

I wouldn't want to talk about the "journey" either, had I f'ed it up as bad as mainline pilots.

You keep talking about scopes and whipsaws.

Yep, and you want to conveniently look past the fact that mainline pilots DID own those routes. They DID sell them off in negotiations.

Answer finally: Are you or are you not flying former mainline routes for less money than a mainline pilot?

Answer finally: Did mainline pilots exchange their routes at the bargaining table?

We all know the answer is yes,

As do we.....

so you are benefiting from another pilots misfortune in getting screwed over by management.

Stop your sniveling. You can't rape the willing. Mainline pilots grabbed their ankles at managements request.


YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! Face it already.

YOU ARE THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM! Face it already.

 

[CX880]

CX..
again, I guess you just don't get it.

We didn't ******************** up. We fought a battle for a just cause and we lost.

If needed, I would do it again.
There will always be pilots who justify going to work for people like Hulas and companies like GoJets. You and OS seem to be acouple of them. EO, SJ and DT were others..
MDW came on here to ask some serious questions. I respect that.
What he does with the info will be up to him.

If he chooses to go to GoJets he will have to live with that decision. But he should have all the info available to make that decision. And part of that info is realizing how and why GoJets got started and why there is hatred towards them.

Some people hate SouthWest, others JetBlue. I know of people who hate Continental (and not just right now.. lol) and others that hate Delta, UPS and Fedex.
Every has a reason and I have stated mine towards GoJet and the management of TSAH.

But "Wow I believe this is the first post where a TSA pilot admits they F#cked UP!" Not even close.

You can hate all you want but it's not going to get you anywhere. I don't like Southwest, they're sort of responsible for the greyhoundization of the airlines, making flying affordable for everyone. Am I posting on threads about how much I hate them, calling them ******************************bags? Calling them scum, scabs, slimeballs? NO

 

[Turtlesfly]

... GoJet is an opportunity for furloughed pilots to have employment in a time when virtually no one is hiring.

You have never been a union leader at any point in your life. You are full of crap when you say that you are a union supporter. You are lying when you say you want to "better the profession."

The ONLY thing you care about is yourself and will stop at nothing to screw over anybody over and justify it by blaming a "court" descision. You will probably respond all innocently by saying "how am I screwing over pilots?" Because TSA is furloughing, and you're bragging how GoJets is hiring, that's how.

And even if you were a union leader on paper, in reality you were never a "leader." You don't lead other people to helping this profession and standing up together - all you care about is feeding your own stomach. The worst part about is that you're here encouraging people to join you and do the same thing.

 

[Turtlesfly]

by the way -

how can you tell who the original GoJetters were, the first ones who came over? Can you tell by their employee numbers?

 

[rtmcfi]

You can hate all you want but it's not going to get you anywhere. I don't like Southwest, they're sort of responsible for the greyhoundization of the airlines, making flying affordable for everyone. Am I posting on threads about how much I hate them, calling them ******************************bags? Calling them scum, scabs, slimeballs? NO

Comparing hojets to SWA is laughable. That is sooo out of touch with reality. Enjoy your treatment at hojets. Then enjoy preparing for every interview thereafter. When you return here to cry about it, someone will bring up the fact that you are a three-peat dunce. Your job history will stick out like a sore thumb at an interview. Mesa, TSA, then hojets. Brilliant career moves from an obviously brilliant fellow. I wonder how many guys just like you there are? Not many I would imagine. I would venture that your app will be easy to spot, and then deal with appropriately.

 

[rtmcfi]

by the way -

how can you tell who the original GoJetters were, the first ones who came over? Can you tell by their employee numbers?

Turn on your private messages

 

[Rook]

I'd be good at that. I yank my own gear nearly every day...

Game set...and match!:laugh:

 

[Options_SLAVE]

You have never been a union leader at any point in your life. You are full of crap when you say that you are a union supporter. You are lying when you say you want to "better the profession."

The ONLY thing you care about is yourself and will stop at nothing to screw over anybody over and justify it by blaming a "court" descision. You will probably respond all innocently by saying "how am I screwing over pilots?" Because TSA is furloughing, and you're bragging how GoJets is hiring, that's how.

And even if you were a union leader on paper, in reality you were never a "leader." You don't lead other people to helping this profession and standing up together - all you care about is feeding your own stomach. The worst part about is that you're here encouraging people to join you and do the same thing.

Ah! Captain "know-it-all" with his all-knowing 4000 hours is back. Wow, you really DO know it all, don't you. You just proved you don't know crap. Believe what you want, say what you want. I don't really care as you're about as wrong as you can be. Oh well!

 

[Caspian27]

... and round and round we go.

No one's opinions have changed here, fellas. Motch's post was spot on regarding everyone has their reasons for hating different airlines. Some pilots will hate Gojet pilots. I can live with that. From what it sounds like, some very senior Gojet pilots came over for a seniority grab vs. TSA pilots before the vote. Not cool. I however had nothing to do with any of that. Pointing a finger at me would be like pointing a finger at "any" continental pilot for being a scab when in fact most of those pilots are not scabs, or at XJ during the time XJ and EXA had their seniority issues when there was consolidation of Airlink flying and pilots moving from EXA to XJ (and was basically the major playing regional airlines against each other as usual, as is this case), etc. I wasn't there when any of that happened. But, if people want to hate me for that, if that makes them feel better about themselves, that's their problem, not mine.

GoJet is an opportunity for furloughed pilots to have employment in a time when virtually no one is hiring (SWA pool opened this week to fill up for class dates at least 18 months out, btw) and is a legitimate, separate airline from TSA, and proved so in court. Its existance was created to circumvent AA's strangle-hold on TSAH on flying aircraft larger than 50 seats for ANY carrier in a time when NO carrier wants 50 seat jets anymore, NOT to get around one pilot group's scope. Therefore, it is NOT an alter-ego airline, such as Freedom or Compass, which are.

Freedom WAS an alter-ego carrier. There is now just one seniority list for Mesa, Air Midwest AND Freedom.

Last time I checked, TSA was furloughing while GoJet was hiring. Since they are owned by the same company, I'd say they are an alter-ego carrier.