How do I get out of ALPA

[Cadillac]

I'm WORKING Christmas. Unlike my ALPA leadership and probably you too.

I know where you guys stand. You use a perceived lack of participation in the day to day activities of ALPA as an excuse for not doing what the membership wants. I've heard the same excuse by ALPA people all the time: "DON'T LIKE IT? GET INVOLVED!"

Bull********************. I pay my dues, they should do what I say. The same with politicians. I elect leaders that I think will represent me. If every citizen had to call in to our Senators and Congressmen on every little issue, there would be no point and the governing would be unworkable.

 

[bravodude]

We've thought about it. Now please explain how to make it actually happen.

Prater is that you?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm WORKING Christmas. Unlike my ALPA leadership and probably you too.

It probably has something to do with your seniority and/or your bidding/triptrade skillset. But if hating those who have Xmas off makes you feel better... then make that active choice...

I know where you guys stand. You use a perceived lack of participation in the day to day activities of ALPA as an excuse for not doing what the membership wants.

Tell me what is perception here:

5% LEC meeting particaption
35% LEC voter particaption
39% Age 60 survey particaption

I've heard the same excuse by ALPA people all the time: "DON'T LIKE IT? GET INVOLVED!"

And here you are...on FI baby... you are involved!!

Bull********************. I pay my dues, they should do what I say.

Consider another pilot with your same influential skillset pouts the same mantra! I pay my dues..do what I say!!. Who should the leadership listen to? The one who yells the loudest? The one who types in CAPS?

The same with politicians. I elect leaders that I think will represent me. If every citizen had to call in to our Senators and Congressmen on every little issue, there would be no point and the governing would be unworkable.

You just said what I said... contridicting yourself...

This whole democracy, self government thing.... I know..it is soooo inconveinent...


The road to effective careers is boring, long and grey.

First the membership has to know what they are talking about. An FO can't demand effective leadership from a Captain if the FO isn't properly trained. Just because the FO passed intial and IOE (pays dues) doesn't mean he is an effective ALPA member.

Once the membership is properly educated, they can effectively function in the political realm of self government. Here is an issue: now that the memberships is ready to particapte, they aren't going to get what they want. Only partially. Between the different subfactions within the entire organization (locally, natioanlly and int'lly), the company and gov't, no one is going to just give one individual or a small clique what they want. This understanding is critical. Recall...boring, long and grey. But that is how the Founding Fathers intentionally created our method of self governement.


Now.... let's talk about the leadership... THE issue here...

The only ALPA officer on salary is the National President. Everyone else is a volunteer. Why should anyone be an MEC or LEC chairman?

The reason is a combination of at least two factors; ego and service. Some need the ego stroke and the motivation is almost a pure self centered need for attention. These types of ALPA volunteers are the worst as they take the difficulties of the job personally: they yell, pout and shutdown the membership. The membership gets rejected and pissed. Rightfully so. However, the membership also elected them. Problem is..no one better decided to run for election..... it is just the way it is.... got a better idea?....

The other union volunteer is service orientated. S/he wants to make the profession better. Thier effectiveness is limited by the ego volunteers, the RLA, the company, the gov't and industry.

Most volunteers are a type of combination of the two..some more than others..


First things first... the average member has idealistic expectations. The idealistic motivators that got them into this job in the first place are simply false. Respect, quality of life, great pay... yes it was better in the past, but not as glorious as the human mind likes to recall the "good ol days". Only an individual can manage thier own expectations...

Politics, politics, politics. It is the meduim in which Air Line Careers are conducted. Like it or not. One must be effective in politics or at least support those who are willing to do the political work on their behalf. This is not happening.

Liken the title of this thread to being in a life boat in the middle of the sea. You can get out of Air Line Pilot career representation... but is jumping out of the boat and directly into the water better or worse? Sure you told those others to piss off but ins't "plays well with others" paramount to effectiveness? Is fighting with others in the life boat going to ehnance your situation? After the infighting, you will still be in a life boat in the middle of the sea. All that time and energy spent and nothing has changed.


The easy path is to hate. Hate your situation and create blame that others are responsible for your situation and problems. However, only you can solve your proplems. And solving your problems requires an effort never considered.....

Did anyone say during flight training: I hope I am politically effective in my Air Line Career?

 

[ASADriver]

Give it a rest on Christmas Rez. Can we have at least one day without you blaming all of us. At least on Christmas.

Merry Christmas, even you Rez!

 

[Cadillac]

Rez, you only seem to hear what you want, and then try to redirect a conversation so that blame is thrown back on the person you disagree with.

I have no problem following you at all. To address your main issue, a perceived lack of participation, I am going to throw a new idea out there that you have never considered. Buckle up and open your mind....

When members don't vote, there is a chance they are satisfied with the status quo.

I'll let that sink in for a minute and give you a chance to think about it.



Ready to continue? Good.

Now lets apply this theory. I am willing to consider the possibility that the members that chose not to vote were satisfied with the current age 60 rule and thought their input was not needed on the issue. You consider these people apathetic idiots. I am willing to think they may simply be abstaining from the vote or figure that NOT voting sends a message too. Either way, when the majority opinion came out in favor of keeping the rule the same, that should have been ALPA's stance.

It's quite simple. Do what the membership wants. Don't throw their opinions out the window and do what YOU want.

Attack me all you want. I know that I am right and the Executive board did what they wanted all along. Just because I'm not in Herndon cracking lobster tails with them every weekend doesn't make my point less valid.

(Also, would you please take a remedial grammar and spelling class? Your posts are getting more atrocious every time. If you need a minute to let the anger clear before typing so you can get the words out correctly, please take one.)

Now I'm finished with this thread. I've made my point, and continuing to respond to you will only put me at odds with the old Chinese saying:

"Never argue with an idiot. People won't be able to tell the difference between the two of you."

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am willing to consider the possibility that the members that chose not to vote were satisfied with the current age 60 rule and thought their input was not needed on the issue. You consider these people apathetic idiots. I am willing to think they may simply be abstaining from the vote or figure that NOT voting sends a message too.

This is my favorite part....

Yeah... keep sending "those" messages..... they are "loud and clear"

 

[flygirlqt]

You probably don't recall but the previous Prez salary was a big deal for whiners like you. At the last BOD, when the Prez salary came up there was no objection. THE MEMBERSHIP HAD NO OBJECTION.

Your lack of understanding and historical knowledge is clear. In order for ALPA to get better..you must first self educate. Only then will you be able to offer workable solutions...

Merry Christmas...

Whatever, your continuous blame of the membership and arsenal of ignorance accusation is getting old.

Just for a point of clarification, I am actually a moaner and not a whiner. Or so I have been told.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Whatever, your continuous blame of the membership and arsenal of ignorance accusation is getting old.

all right... fair enough.... what do you suggest?

Just for a point of clarification, I am actually a moaner and not a whiner. Or so I have been told.

Does it really matter?

What responsibilities does the membership have?

 

[ASADriver]

Rez, go have some turkey and egg nog. We know it's our fault. We don't care and we don't want to hear it today.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, go have some turkey and egg nog. We know it's our fault. We don't care and we don't want to hear it today.

And yet here you are.....

Tough question to answer I agree...

What responsibilities has the membership?

 

[Freight Dog]

Tough question to answer I agree...

What responsibilities has the membership?

Take an active role in their career by more than initialing their memos at work. Part of it being reading FastReads and participating in ALPA polls as well as showing up at union meetings. GOT IT REZ!!!!

Now... you said 39% of eligible voters voted in Age 60 poll. Why were their wishes ignored? Here's what I'm getting at - if you were going to change the rule anyway, isn't it financially irresponsible to be blowing money on polls and surveys? Sure, I'd love to ask CAPTAIN Prater what the fuk was he thinking with this... but I'm sure he'd give me a very nice, weasely speech that doesn't even come close to an actual answer one way or another.

Seems to me that ALPA National is more interested in getting that 39% participation down to 3.9% than getting it to 93%.

 

[ASADriver]

And yet here you are.....

Tough question to answer I agree...

What responsibilities has the membership?

Yes I am here, but it is Christmas and I don't want to hear about how it is my fault. I pay dues. I go to meetings. I vote. It is Christmas Rez and it is time for you to shut up. Merry Christmas.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Take an active role in their career by more than initialing their memos at work. Part of it being reading FastReads and participating in ALPA polls as well as showing up at union meetings. GOT IT REZ!!!!

Good...

Now... you said 39% of eligible voters voted in Age 60 poll. Why were their wishes ignored? Here's what I'm getting at - if you were going to change the rule anyway, isn't it financially irresponsible to be blowing money on polls and surveys?

So you are saying ALPA should have worked with Oberstar without notifying the membership. Then issued a press release or even let the membership hear it from a third party....

What about the question: if the law is going to be changed shall ALPA work with law makers. (my words). No one in the Age 60 camp likes to rationally address this question. they feel it is loaded, sneaky, whatever.. but yet they answered it.

If the membership felt this was dirty polling, then why did they not follow up with hard core communication.

Also, the US gov't via the FAA was obligated to comply with ICAO/UN treaty to change US law to comply with ICAO standards...

http://www.age60rule.com/ICAO_frameset.html

Sure, I'd love to ask CAPTAIN Prater what the fuk was he thinking with this... but I'm sure he'd give me a very nice, weasely speech that doesn't even come close to an actual answer one way or another.

It didn't go your way so you don't want to listen objectively...

Seems to me that ALPA National is more interested in getting that 39% participation down to 3.9% than getting it to 93%.

I like the way you kept it 3's and 9's.....

 

[Freight Dog]

So you are saying ALPA should have worked with Oberstar without notifying the membership. Then issued a press release or even let the membership hear it from a third party....

They might as well have. The membership spoke out against it, and Prater ignored it and worked with Oberstar AGAINST the wishes of the majority of ALPA membership. Why spend the money on polls if they already chose their path? To me, that's irresponsible use of our ALPA dues.

What about the question: if the law is going to be changed shall ALPA work with law makers. (my words). No one in the Age 60 camp likes to rationally address this question. they feel it is loaded, sneaky, whatever.. but yet they answered it.

ALPA working with law makers? Please... ALPA should have followed the membership wishes and oppose the rule, or at best delaying it. In any case, ALPA should have urged Congress to let the FAA handle this - but provide the FAA with protections against lawsuits - not write the damn FAR's effectively bypassing the FAA. Thank you ALPA!

If the membership felt this was dirty polling, then why did they not follow up with hard core communication.

Rez... are you Prater? Many of us did... yet, we were ignored.

Also, the US gov't via the FAA was obligated to comply with ICAO/UN treaty to change US law to comply with ICAO standards...

http://www.age60rule.com/ICAO_frameset.html

Ah... so France is in violation of ICAO/UN treaty by still having age 60 rule in effect. Who is ICAO/UN to dictate laws in our country? Is your FOM more restrictive than FAR's? Think that's a good idea? Think there's a safety margin there?

BTW... you're quoting an APAAD/SPC sponsored website.

It didn't go your way so you don't want to listen objectively...

No, I do want to listen, but I think I'm capable of differentiating between someone trying to pull a fast one, and the truth.

Rez... ALPA botched it BIG time... no two ways about it. You blaming it on the membership just makes you look foolish and blind. I'm not saying you're wrong in pushing the membership to take more of an active role in their careers, but you gotta call spade a spade.

 

[ualdriver]

Freight Dog-

Just out of curiosity, if you're an ALPA member, have you tried talking directly to ALPA legislative guys? I realize it's cool to bash ALPA and Prater on this forum and parade the political loss of the Age 60 rule as "yet another failure" of ALPA, but have you ever thought that perhaps the issue that you are debating is a little more complex than what you read on the FI forum? Perhaps there are some shades of grey concerning this issue instead of the black and white decision you make it out to be?

So I ask again, have you talked to anyone familiar with the legislative process and the change in the Age 60 rule, or is your mind just basically made up based upon the information you've read on forums such as FI? Just curious......

 

[Freight Dog]

UALDriver... no I did not try talking directly to the ALPA legislative guys. The reason, and as naive as it sounds, was that I had faith in ALPA. I mean, I'm paying this organization an equivalent of a car payment.

To me, it simply didn't make any sense to run the multitude of polls if this change was absolutely imminent. If that was the case, why Blue Ribbon Panel, why the skewed polls, and even still after the results came back against supporting the change, fastrack this through against the wishes? If it was indeed gonna happen anyway, why jump through all the hoops and waste all that money? Perhaps managing expectations?

Despite of what you may think, I don't enjoy bashing ALPA and Prater on this forum, or anywhere for that matter. I'd much rather be celebrating ALPA successes. Unfortunately, not many of those around lately... at least not for the majority of its members no matter which way you slice it.

 

[Caveman]

The reason ALPA has a system in place that forces everyone to pay whether they want to or not is because they KNOW they can not deliver what they promise. If they were effective at what they are supposed to be about we'd all be lined up waiting to get in. The simple truth is ALPA's customers are in general very disappointed with what they get for their money and ALPA knows it. Instead of trying to make the customer happy they blame the customer.

If ALPA was such a great deal they wouldn't have to force membership and they wouldn't have to garnish our wages. ALPA, put your money where your mouth is. Let those that want to opt out, opt out. If you have such a great product most of your membership will stay. I'm betting it would be a huge exodus and that's exactly why it will never happen. ALPA knows they don't service their constituents so they resort to garnishment and the threat of job less to keep you paying your dues. There's zero incentive to be responsive to our needs. They get paid no matter what they do.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ah... so France is in violation of ICAO/UN treaty by still having age 60 rule in effect. Who is ICAO/UN to dictate laws in our country? Is your FOM more restrictive than FAR's? Think that's a good idea? Think there's a safety margin there?

The US is obligated via treated to conform to ICAO standards.

BTW... you're quoting an APAAD/SPC sponsored website.

I know... its has the pro's and con's. ALPA members are smart enough to know the spin..

UALDriver... no I did not try talking directly to the ALPA legislative guys. The reason, and as naive as it sounds, was that I had faith in ALPA. I mean, I'm paying this organization an equivalent of a car payment.

And what about the guys that had faith in ALPA to do what they wanted which was counter to your wishes...??

To me, it simply didn't make any sense to run the multitude of polls if this change was absolutely imminent. If that was the case, why Blue Ribbon Panel, why the skewed polls, and even still after the results came back against supporting the change, fastrack this through against the wishes? If it was indeed gonna happen anyway, why jump through all the hoops and waste all that money? Perhaps managing expectations?

Perhaps...

Despite of what you may think, I don't enjoy bashing ALPA and Prater on this forum, or anywhere for that matter. I'd much rather be celebrating ALPA successes. Unfortunately, not many of those around lately... at least not for the majority of its members no matter which way you slice it.

On the age 60 issue... I am not debating the actual law change. I am concerned with an aloof membership that believes ALPA is thier customized agent and when things go foul they cry out.

It is not that easy and black and white.

ALPA has leadership issues. But the membership has followership issues as well. I fear if I highlight the leadership issues, then the aloof membership will simply say.. "those are the problems, that is what has to be fixed, its not me.. its THEM!"

The reason ALPA has a system in place that forces everyone to pay whether they want to or not is because they KNOW they can not deliver what they promise.

Just like my taxes? W can't deliever in Iraq, yet I keep paying for it?

If they were effective at what they are supposed to be about we'd all be lined up waiting to get in. The simple truth is ALPA's customers are in general very disappointed with what they get for their money and ALPA knows it.

I agree. And I am working to change that. Not sure how successful I'll be... anyone want to help?

Instead of trying to make the customer happy they blame the customer.

Not sure ALPA blames the membership. I certianly do...

If ALPA was such a great deal they wouldn't have to force membership and they wouldn't have to garnish our wages. ALPA, put your money where your mouth is. Let those that want to opt out, opt out. If you have such a great product most of your membership will stay. I'm betting it would be a huge exodus and that's exactly why it will never happen. ALPA knows they don't service their constituents so they resort to garnishment and the threat of job less to keep you paying your dues. There's zero incentive to be responsive to our needs. They get paid no matter what they do.

If America was a great deal too.. people would pay thier taxes without obligation... this whole democracy and self government thing... it requires..... responsibility....

What responsibilities does the membership have?

 

[PCL_128]

The US is obligated via treated to conform to ICAO standards.

Come on Rez, you should know better than that. Any ICAO member nation can file exceptions to the ICAO conventions. All it takes is notification to ICAO. We are under no treaty obligation to conform to every ICAO standard.

 

[ualdriver]

UALDriver... no I did not try talking directly to the ALPA legislative guys. The reason, and as naive as it sounds, was that I had faith in ALPA. I mean, I'm paying this organization an equivalent of a car payment.

To me, it simply didn't make any sense to run the multitude of polls if this change was absolutely imminent. If that was the case, why Blue Ribbon Panel, why the skewed polls, and even still after the results came back against supporting the change, fastrack this through against the wishes? If it was indeed gonna happen anyway, why jump through all the hoops and waste all that money? Perhaps managing expectations?

Despite of what you may think, I don't enjoy bashing ALPA and Prater on this forum, or anywhere for that matter. I'd much rather be celebrating ALPA successes. Unfortunately, not many of those around lately... at least not for the majority of its members no matter which way you slice it.

May I request that you make a special effort to contact an ALPA legislative rep who is intimately familiar with exactly how the Age 60 thing came about? (easy for me as a UAL guy as we have good legislative guys who I can simply call/e-mail) I, like you, was very "annoyed" when Age 60 was changed, seemingly with ALPA's blessing. But I called my reps, talked to our legislatively committee, and did a little research on my own, and now I personally believe that ALPA behaved as they should have. I don't think the timeline has been accurately portrayed anywhere on this forum, and I think that's what Rez is trying to tell you.

Talk to them, post here what you've learned, and then if you still think ALPA failed you (and you still may), then flame away!

 

[PCL_128]

ualdriver, I talked with ALPA Legislative Affairs, including the senior lobbyists, I talked with many of the EC members, and I even talked to Prater himself. My opinion was unchanged. ALPA, and Prater specifically, acted inappropriately in this situation.

 

[30West]

Union or non union, what's really sad is that some of you guys couldn't even take Christmas Day off from arguing about it over the internet. Even laid up in some dirtbag motel on an overnight, there are still much better things to do.

 

[Caveman]

I am concerned with an aloof membership that believes ALPA is thier customized agent and when things go foul they cry out.

A lot of us aren't 'members'. We're hostages. We didn't choose to join your wonderful organization. We're were forced to.

Your comparison of ALPA membership to citizenship is very appropriate. Just like the governement you steal our money, spend it inappropriately, are unresponsive to the folks paying the bills and scold us for not doing our part when we complain that we're getting screwed.

I've been a member of AOPA for a long time. I voluntarily send them a check every year because they do an EXCELLENT job of advocating and lobbying on behalf of GA. Guess what Rez. They don't have to garnish my wages to get my money. Why? Because they are responsive to the will of the membership. They do what is best for GA. I'd have to look it up but I bet the staff payroll at AOPA isn't anywhere near what it is at ALPA.

The same thing applies to the NRA, AARP and a few other organizations.

Like I said in another thread I think ALPA does a fantastic job when it comes to advocating safety, aeromedical and legal issues. I like the idea they lobby the feds on our behalf and I would gladly pay several hundred dollars a year to an organization that does that kind of stuff. ALPA just sucks at being a labor union. There's too many conflicting interests in play and ALPA always defaults to where the money or potential money is. You asked for an example in another thread. How about AA-TWA? ALPA screwed TWA in hopes of wooing AA into the fold. ALPA should have went to the mat helping TWA pilots and they bailed on them. I'm not blaming AA pilots. Their union did their job and the reason it did is because it was an inhouse unit. It had one and only one responsibility and that was to look out for AA pilots. Until we decentralize the labor side of the house and have each pilot group work independently from National, ALPA will continue to divide and conquer it's membership.

 

[flygirlqt]

A lot of us aren't 'members'. We're hostages. We didn't choose to join your wonderful organization. We're were forced to.

Your comparison of ALPA membership to citizenship is very appropriate. Just like the governement you steal our money, spend it inappropriately, are unresponsive to the folks paying the bills and scold us for not doing our part when we complain that we're getting screwed.

I've been a member of AOPA for a long time. I voluntarily send them a check every year because they do an EXCELLENT job of advocating and lobbying on behalf of GA. Guess what Rez. They don't have to garnish my wages to get my money. Why? Because they are responsive to the will of the membership. They do what is best for GA. I'd have to look it up but I bet the staff payroll at AOPA isn't anywhere near what it is at ALPA.

The same thing applies to the NRA, AARP and a few other organizations.

Like I said in another thread I think ALPA does a fantastic job when it comes to advocating safety, aeromedical and legal issues. I like the idea they lobby the feds on our behalf and I would gladly pay several hundred dollars a year to an organization that does that kind of stuff. ALPA just sucks at being a labor union. There's too many conflicting interests in play and ALPA always defaults to where the money or potential money is. You asked for an example in another thread. How about AA-TWA? ALPA screwed TWA in hopes of wooing AA into the fold. ALPA should have went to the mat helping TWA pilots and they bailed on them. I'm not blaming AA pilots. Their union did their job and the reason it did is because it was an inhouse unit. It had one and only one responsibility and that was to look out for AA pilots. Until we decentralize the labor side of the house and have each pilot group work independently from National, ALPA will continue to divide and conquer it's membership.

Well said Sir. Very well said.

 

[Caveman]

Well said Sir. Very well said.

Thank you. I would have replied to Rez sooner but you distracted me with your moaning vs whining comment. My brain briefly went off in another direction. Kinda like Homer Simpson, "Hmmm, doughnuts...."

 

[flygirlqt]

Thank you. I would have replied to Rez sooner but you distracted me with your moaning vs whining comment. My brain briefly went off in another direction. Kinda like Homer Simpson, "Hmmm, doughnuts...."

I could have also mentioned a heaving chest for a visual picture but refrained. How is that for Brain lock?

Did you notice though that moaning comment went right over REZ's head?

 

[Caveman]

I could have also mentioned a heaving chest for a visual picture but refrained. How is that for Brain lock?

Did you notice though that moaning comment went right over REZ's head?

What.............? Oh, sorry........

Yeah, I did notice that. In fact I had to go back and reread the thread to see if he picked up on it somewhere else. It was a perfect opportunity to lighten the tone of the conversation and he completely missed it. He was too busy quoting the talking points from Herndon.

 

[kwick]

Quit, go someplace else!

 

[Turtle21]

Ok the age thing has passed

So, let's start a debate: What do you have to do to get out of the union?

ALPO and ALPOphiles are incurable. Its like a girlfriend with permanent cold sores. Love them or leave them.

Until you get a screwing like ALPO screwing like TWA, AA, or USAir then there won't be sufficient impetus to vote ALPO onto their a$$. The unwillingly ALPOphiled must have the majority to be successful. TWA didn't, American did, USAir might.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

ALPO and ALPOphiles are incurable. Its like a girlfriend with permanent cold sores. Love them or leave them.

Until you get a screwing like ALPO screwing like TWA, AA, or USAir then there won't be sufficient impetus to vote ALPO onto their a$$. The unwillingly ALPOphiled must have the majority to be successful. TWA didn't, American did, USAir might.

Nice:beer: