How do I get out of ALPA

[Cadillac]

I'm WORKING Christmas. Unlike my ALPA leadership and probably you too.

I know where you guys stand. You use a perceived lack of participation in the day to day activities of ALPA as an excuse for not doing what the membership wants. I've heard the same excuse by ALPA people all the time: "DON'T LIKE IT? GET INVOLVED!"

Bull********************. I pay my dues, they should do what I say. The same with politicians. I elect leaders that I think will represent me. If every citizen had to call in to our Senators and Congressmen on every little issue, there would be no point and the governing would be unworkable.

 

[bravodude]

We've thought about it. Now please explain how to make it actually happen.

Prater is that you?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm WORKING Christmas. Unlike my ALPA leadership and probably you too.

It probably has something to do with your seniority and/or your bidding/triptrade skillset. But if hating those who have Xmas off makes you feel better... then make that active choice...

I know where you guys stand. You use a perceived lack of participation in the day to day activities of ALPA as an excuse for not doing what the membership wants.

Tell me what is perception here:

5% LEC meeting particaption
35% LEC voter particaption
39% Age 60 survey particaption

I've heard the same excuse by ALPA people all the time: "DON'T LIKE IT? GET INVOLVED!"

And here you are...on FI baby... you are involved!!

Bull********************. I pay my dues, they should do what I say.

Consider another pilot with your same influential skillset pouts the same mantra! I pay my dues..do what I say!!. Who should the leadership listen to? The one who yells the loudest? The one who types in CAPS?

The same with politicians. I elect leaders that I think will represent me. If every citizen had to call in to our Senators and Congressmen on every little issue, there would be no point and the governing would be unworkable.

You just said what I said... contridicting yourself...

This whole democracy, self government thing.... I know..it is soooo inconveinent...


The road to effective careers is boring, long and grey.

First the membership has to know what they are talking about. An FO can't demand effective leadership from a Captain if the FO isn't properly trained. Just because the FO passed intial and IOE (pays dues) doesn't mean he is an effective ALPA member.

Once the membership is properly educated, they can effectively function in the political realm of self government. Here is an issue: now that the memberships is ready to particapte, they aren't going to get what they want. Only partially. Between the different subfactions within the entire organization (locally, natioanlly and int'lly), the company and gov't, no one is going to just give one individual or a small clique what they want. This understanding is critical. Recall...boring, long and grey. But that is how the Founding Fathers intentionally created our method of self governement.


Now.... let's talk about the leadership... THE issue here...

The only ALPA officer on salary is the National President. Everyone else is a volunteer. Why should anyone be an MEC or LEC chairman?

The reason is a combination of at least two factors; ego and service. Some need the ego stroke and the motivation is almost a pure self centered need for attention. These types of ALPA volunteers are the worst as they take the difficulties of the job personally: they yell, pout and shutdown the membership. The membership gets rejected and pissed. Rightfully so. However, the membership also elected them. Problem is..no one better decided to run for election..... it is just the way it is.... got a better idea?....

The other union volunteer is service orientated. S/he wants to make the profession better. Thier effectiveness is limited by the ego volunteers, the RLA, the company, the gov't and industry.

Most volunteers are a type of combination of the two..some more than others..


First things first... the average member has idealistic expectations. The idealistic motivators that got them into this job in the first place are simply false. Respect, quality of life, great pay... yes it was better in the past, but not as glorious as the human mind likes to recall the "good ol days". Only an individual can manage thier own expectations...

Politics, politics, politics. It is the meduim in which Air Line Careers are conducted. Like it or not. One must be effective in politics or at least support those who are willing to do the political work on their behalf. This is not happening.

Liken the title of this thread to being in a life boat in the middle of the sea. You can get out of Air Line Pilot career representation... but is jumping out of the boat and directly into the water better or worse? Sure you told those others to piss off but ins't "plays well with others" paramount to effectiveness? Is fighting with others in the life boat going to ehnance your situation? After the infighting, you will still be in a life boat in the middle of the sea. All that time and energy spent and nothing has changed.


The easy path is to hate. Hate your situation and create blame that others are responsible for your situation and problems. However, only you can solve your proplems. And solving your problems requires an effort never considered.....

Did anyone say during flight training: I hope I am politically effective in my Air Line Career?

 

[ASADriver]

Give it a rest on Christmas Rez. Can we have at least one day without you blaming all of us. At least on Christmas.

Merry Christmas, even you Rez!

 

[Cadillac]

Rez, you only seem to hear what you want, and then try to redirect a conversation so that blame is thrown back on the person you disagree with.

I have no problem following you at all. To address your main issue, a perceived lack of participation, I am going to throw a new idea out there that you have never considered. Buckle up and open your mind....

When members don't vote, there is a chance they are satisfied with the status quo.

I'll let that sink in for a minute and give you a chance to think about it.



Ready to continue? Good.

Now lets apply this theory. I am willing to consider the possibility that the members that chose not to vote were satisfied with the current age 60 rule and thought their input was not needed on the issue. You consider these people apathetic idiots. I am willing to think they may simply be abstaining from the vote or figure that NOT voting sends a message too. Either way, when the majority opinion came out in favor of keeping the rule the same, that should have been ALPA's stance.

It's quite simple. Do what the membership wants. Don't throw their opinions out the window and do what YOU want.

Attack me all you want. I know that I am right and the Executive board did what they wanted all along. Just because I'm not in Herndon cracking lobster tails with them every weekend doesn't make my point less valid.

(Also, would you please take a remedial grammar and spelling class? Your posts are getting more atrocious every time. If you need a minute to let the anger clear before typing so you can get the words out correctly, please take one.)

Now I'm finished with this thread. I've made my point, and continuing to respond to you will only put me at odds with the old Chinese saying:

"Never argue with an idiot. People won't be able to tell the difference between the two of you."

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am willing to consider the possibility that the members that chose not to vote were satisfied with the current age 60 rule and thought their input was not needed on the issue. You consider these people apathetic idiots. I am willing to think they may simply be abstaining from the vote or figure that NOT voting sends a message too.

This is my favorite part....

Yeah... keep sending "those" messages..... they are "loud and clear"

 

[flygirlqt]

You probably don't recall but the previous Prez salary was a big deal for whiners like you. At the last BOD, when the Prez salary came up there was no objection. THE MEMBERSHIP HAD NO OBJECTION.

Your lack of understanding and historical knowledge is clear. In order for ALPA to get better..you must first self educate. Only then will you be able to offer workable solutions...

Merry Christmas...

Whatever, your continuous blame of the membership and arsenal of ignorance accusation is getting old.

Just for a point of clarification, I am actually a moaner and not a whiner. Or so I have been told.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Whatever, your continuous blame of the membership and arsenal of ignorance accusation is getting old.

all right... fair enough.... what do you suggest?

Just for a point of clarification, I am actually a moaner and not a whiner. Or so I have been told.

Does it really matter?

What responsibilities does the membership have?

 

[ASADriver]

Rez, go have some turkey and egg nog. We know it's our fault. We don't care and we don't want to hear it today.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, go have some turkey and egg nog. We know it's our fault. We don't care and we don't want to hear it today.

And yet here you are.....

Tough question to answer I agree...

What responsibilities has the membership?

 

[Freight Dog]

Tough question to answer I agree...

What responsibilities has the membership?

Take an active role in their career by more than initialing their memos at work. Part of it being reading FastReads and participating in ALPA polls as well as showing up at union meetings. GOT IT REZ!!!!

Now... you said 39% of eligible voters voted in Age 60 poll. Why were their wishes ignored? Here's what I'm getting at - if you were going to change the rule anyway, isn't it financially irresponsible to be blowing money on polls and surveys? Sure, I'd love to ask CAPTAIN Prater what the fuk was he thinking with this... but I'm sure he'd give me a very nice, weasely speech that doesn't even come close to an actual answer one way or another.

Seems to me that ALPA National is more interested in getting that 39% participation down to 3.9% than getting it to 93%.

 

[ASADriver]

And yet here you are.....

Tough question to answer I agree...

What responsibilities has the membership?

Yes I am here, but it is Christmas and I don't want to hear about how it is my fault. I pay dues. I go to meetings. I vote. It is Christmas Rez and it is time for you to shut up. Merry Christmas.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Take an active role in their career by more than initialing their memos at work. Part of it being reading FastReads and participating in ALPA polls as well as showing up at union meetings. GOT IT REZ!!!!

Good...

Now... you said 39% of eligible voters voted in Age 60 poll. Why were their wishes ignored? Here's what I'm getting at - if you were going to change the rule anyway, isn't it financially irresponsible to be blowing money on polls and surveys?

So you are saying ALPA should have worked with Oberstar without notifying the membership. Then issued a press release or even let the membership hear it from a third party....

What about the question: if the law is going to be changed shall ALPA work with law makers. (my words). No one in the Age 60 camp likes to rationally address this question. they feel it is loaded, sneaky, whatever.. but yet they answered it.

If the membership felt this was dirty polling, then why did they not follow up with hard core communication.

Also, the US gov't via the FAA was obligated to comply with ICAO/UN treaty to change US law to comply with ICAO standards...

http://www.age60rule.com/ICAO_frameset.html

Sure, I'd love to ask CAPTAIN Prater what the fuk was he thinking with this... but I'm sure he'd give me a very nice, weasely speech that doesn't even come close to an actual answer one way or another.

It didn't go your way so you don't want to listen objectively...

Seems to me that ALPA National is more interested in getting that 39% participation down to 3.9% than getting it to 93%.

I like the way you kept it 3's and 9's.....

 

[Freight Dog]

So you are saying ALPA should have worked with Oberstar without notifying the membership. Then issued a press release or even let the membership hear it from a third party....

They might as well have. The membership spoke out against it, and Prater ignored it and worked with Oberstar AGAINST the wishes of the majority of ALPA membership. Why spend the money on polls if they already chose their path? To me, that's irresponsible use of our ALPA dues.

What about the question: if the law is going to be changed shall ALPA work with law makers. (my words). No one in the Age 60 camp likes to rationally address this question. they feel it is loaded, sneaky, whatever.. but yet they answered it.

ALPA working with law makers? Please... ALPA should have followed the membership wishes and oppose the rule, or at best delaying it. In any case, ALPA should have urged Congress to let the FAA handle this - but provide the FAA with protections against lawsuits - not write the damn FAR's effectively bypassing the FAA. Thank you ALPA!

If the membership felt this was dirty polling, then why did they not follow up with hard core communication.

Rez... are you Prater? Many of us did... yet, we were ignored.

Also, the US gov't via the FAA was obligated to comply with ICAO/UN treaty to change US law to comply with ICAO standards...

http://www.age60rule.com/ICAO_frameset.html

Ah... so France is in violation of ICAO/UN treaty by still having age 60 rule in effect. Who is ICAO/UN to dictate laws in our country? Is your FOM more restrictive than FAR's? Think that's a good idea? Think there's a safety margin there?

BTW... you're quoting an APAAD/SPC sponsored website.

It didn't go your way so you don't want to listen objectively...

No, I do want to listen, but I think I'm capable of differentiating between someone trying to pull a fast one, and the truth.

Rez... ALPA botched it BIG time... no two ways about it. You blaming it on the membership just makes you look foolish and blind. I'm not saying you're wrong in pushing the membership to take more of an active role in their careers, but you gotta call spade a spade.

 

[ualdriver]

Freight Dog-

Just out of curiosity, if you're an ALPA member, have you tried talking directly to ALPA legislative guys? I realize it's cool to bash ALPA and Prater on this forum and parade the political loss of the Age 60 rule as "yet another failure" of ALPA, but have you ever thought that perhaps the issue that you are debating is a little more complex than what you read on the FI forum? Perhaps there are some shades of grey concerning this issue instead of the black and white decision you make it out to be?

So I ask again, have you talked to anyone familiar with the legislative process and the change in the Age 60 rule, or is your mind just basically made up based upon the information you've read on forums such as FI? Just curious......