How can I drink the Brown Kool-aid if I cant hold my food down

[canyonblue]

I'm going from 11% at AirTran ......

Yeah, but that's like being the backup Right Fielder for the Durham Bulls.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You can't keep your quality of life and expect to get a nice pay raise too. That's not fair to the southwest pilots

Now HERE is some twisted logic. Why do SWA pilots give a rat's butt about how much AAI pilots get paid? AAI paychecks aren't costing SWA pilots a nickle.

The ONLY reason is that its a red herring excuse for a seniority grab.

Stapling 650 AAI pilots AND restricting them from upgrade for a decade?

Give me a break.

Vote this POS down and give it to an arbitrator.

 

[shootr]

They are restricted merely by the fact that they've been stapled. There's no extra provision.

 

[oriondriver]

SWAPA BOD votes unanimously to send to membership and recommends a yes vote. Telling the members we can't do any better in negotiations and probably will do worse in Arby. If we do worse in arby stands to reason trannies do better. The big question Trannies have to ask themselves: What will "Dirty Garry Kellyhan" do? Did he fire five shots or six out of his 44 magnum when he laid down the law with the AT MC? Are you feeling lucky?... Well are you Trannies?

 

[Lear70]

They are restricted merely by the fact that they've been stapled. There's no extra provision.

Not exactly correct. Our top 150 F/O's weren't stapled.

The restriction that specifies that 2,600 of your F/O's will upgrade before ONE of our F/O's is allowed to upgrade is a provision that will keep some of our 150 senior F/O's who weren't stapled from upgrading in the event SWA grows as has been hinted at.

You may not believe the growth, and that's fine, but if you don't, why the 9-year provision for 2,600 of you to upgrade ahead of our senior F/O's? If there's not going to be any growth, and 1,000 or so of your F/O's are senior to our most senior F/O, then there's no need for that provision, is there?

The amusing thing is, you guys are screaming bloody murder about having to fly with a Captain who would be junior to you by Date of Hire. In 3-5 years, the shoe will be on the other foot. Our senior F/O's will have to fly with YOUR upgraded F/O's who are junior to OUR F/O's by Date of Hire. Wonder how many of you will say that's unfair when it happens...

Just an amusing anecdote. Carry on.

 

[sfomarc]

It's not greed at all, so no need to try and frame it that way. It is about having the same seat and same QOL on the 140 aircraft that we brought with us to this deal. That's what "fair and equitable" means.

Yet some of your pilots seem to think that they have the rights to those seats and that our CA's should get displaced. They also think that their seniority is somehow valued higher than ours. Sorry. It doesn't work that way. We are both Major airlines. The pay/benefits bump is a product of becoming a SWA pilot. I never applied there. I didn't ask to be one. GK made me one with the stroke of a pen, so now I am no different than any other SWA pilot. SWAPA didn't do that, SWA did. Therefore, SWAPA global seniority should have no connection to the pay/benefits bump that SWA orchestrated.

Does this mean you would rather stay an AT pilot and work under your current contract and have SWA operate AT as a separate entity?

Just asking

 

[islandhoper]

Why I'm Voting no!

This "deal" takes my seniority back from 44% to 75%. Even though I hold my capt's seat, my life becomes completely unknown for the next 10+ yrs. I will not accrue any seniority and move around "the most" junior bases and schedules since I probably won't hold ATL anymore. I guess I could downgrade (Wouldn't you like that huh?) This deal short of puts a gun in my head to do just that. The southwest pilot that takes my slot wouldn't have to deal with the 10+ years that I would have to. He/she would immediately have a descent seniority.

Pay is a perk (even though it starts in almost a year from now), but I do not think is worth the dramatic changes in commuting and scheduling for such a long time. It is really like the Devil making me rich in exchange for my soul and peace... I vote no to that. Voting yes, potentially commits 15 years of the 29 I have left to being "the junior guy". I refuse to forget that I chose AirTran because I believed my upgrade would come quickly, that we would grow at a fast pace, that we would go international and keep on expanding. I have never applied at SW. Many of you don't know AirTran, don't under-estimate it. It was a good Airline, with a good product, with customers that appreciated it. With pilots that had as much experience as ANY southwest pilot except for the shuttle commander you guys had... (Hugh Gibbs I think?)

I understand we are being acquired. But I also understand it is a necessity. If not, GK would have invested those 3.4 Bills. on internal growth. But he chose to acquire a good, profitable airline. That was the way to go. And this acquisition/merger will create the opportunities that southwest alone did not have. No matter how much money it had in the bank... So I vote no. Voting yes would mean forgetting all this things and accepting that my career has a lower value than any Southwest Captains career.

I respect and truly appreciate all the pay increases that the SW contract would afford me; but have this clear guys: Everything I gain in this merger is not taken and subtracted from a Southwest guy. Not the pay, not the seat. The gains you are expecting to have, are taken directly from an AirTran pilot: Seniority, job security, quality of life and capt seats... Not fair, not equitable.

I also fear this: If we accept this deal and live with it, who is to say that in 5 years from now GK will merge with Alaska... will those pilots forget their balls too? Or will they fight to be on top of my 75% at SW? Will swapa have a little more respect for them? Agree to take less or allow arbitration? This is my fight today! I will hold my cojones and vote no.

What do I think is fair in a nutshell: -Relative seniority (With a slight loss at the AirTran side due to SW top seniority protection (Those hired before AT existed), and a slight loss to offset a 3 year fence in ATL. Not more than 10-15% loss.
-Captains keep the seats period. (Bid per master seniority list.)
-Pay bonus for SW fo's that fly with a junior capt. (This is a great idea to reduce friction in the cockpit.)
-SW upgrade protection on sw retirements. Every time a SW guy retires, the slot is taken by the next SW guy down the list. End this rule sometime down a 5 year limit or so?
-At upgrade protection for our guys for the same amount of time...

OK, this is my yearly post. Flame away and explain me why this is not fair and equitable. Or how my thinking is of the planet.


Islanhoper

 

[scoreboardII]

I'm going from 11% at AirTran to 38% on the combined list and between two SW Capts hired years after me. Bring on the arbitrators, I'm voting no.

And making how much more for your trouble? Please, cry us a rvier.

 

[sfomarc]

Why I'm Voting no!

This "deal" takes my seniority back from 44% to 75%. Even though I hold my capt's seat, my life becomes completely unknown for the next 10+ yrs. I will not accrue any seniority and move around "the most" junior bases and schedules since I probably won't hold ATL anymore. I guess I could downgrade (Wouldn't you like that huh?) This deal short of puts a gun in my head to do just that. The southwest pilot that takes my slot wouldn't have to deal with the 10+ years that I would have to. He/she would immediately have a descent seniority.

Pay is a perk (even though it starts in almost a year from now), but I do not think is worth the dramatic changes in commuting and scheduling for such a long time. It is really like the Devil making me rich in exchange for my soul and peace... I vote no to that. Voting yes, potentially commits 15 years of the 29 I have left to being "the junior guy". I refuse to forget that I chose AirTran because I believed my upgrade would come quickly, that we would grow at a fast pace, that we would go international and keep on expanding. I have never applied at SW. Many of you don't know AirTran, don't under-estimate it. It was a good Airline, with a good product, with customers that appreciated it. With pilots that had as much experience as ANY southwest pilot except for the shuttle commander you guys had... (Hugh Gibbs I think?)

I understand we are being acquired. But I also understand it is a necessity. If not, GK would have invested those 3.4 Bills. on internal growth. But he chose to acquire a good, profitable airline. That was the way to go. And this acquisition/merger will create the opportunities that southwest alone did not have. No matter how much money it had in the bank... So I vote no. Voting yes would mean forgetting all this things and accepting that my career has a lower value than any Southwest Captains career.

I respect and truly appreciate all the pay increases that the SW contract would afford me; but have this clear guys: Everything I gain in this merger is not taken and subtracted from a Southwest guy. Not the pay, not the seat. The gains you are expecting to have, are taken directly from an AirTran pilot: Seniority, job security, quality of life and capt seats... Not fair, not equitable.

I also fear this: If we accept this deal and live with it, who is to say that in 5 years from now GK will merge with Alaska... will those pilots forget their balls too? Or will they fight to be on top of my 75% at SW? Will swapa have a little more respect for them? Agree to take less or allow arbitration? This is my fight today! I will hold my cojones and vote no.

What do I think is fair in a nutshell: -Relative seniority (With a slight loss at the AirTran side due to SW top seniority protection (Those hired before AT existed), and a slight loss to offset a 3 year fence in ATL. Not more than 10-15% loss.
-Captains keep the seats period. (Bid per master seniority list.)
-Pay bonus for SW fo's that fly with a junior capt. (This is a great idea to reduce friction in the cockpit.)
-SW upgrade protection on sw retirements. Every time a SW guy retires, the slot is taken by the next SW guy down the list. End this rule sometime down a 5 year limit or so?
-At upgrade protection for our guys for the same amount of time...

OK, this is my yearly post. Flame away and explain me why this is not fair and equitable. Or how my thinking is of the planet.


Islanhoper

Good post and good points. This will be interesting to watch.

 

[texman]

It's not greed at all, so no need to try and frame it that way. It is about having the same seat and same QOL on the 140 aircraft that we brought with us to this deal. That's what "fair and equitable" means.

Yet some of your pilots seem to think that they have the rights to those seats and that our CA's should get displaced. They also think that their seniority is somehow valued higher than ours. Sorry. It doesn't work that way. We are both Major airlines. The pay/benefits bump is a product of becoming a SWA pilot. I never applied there. I didn't ask to be one. GK made me one with the stroke of a pen, so now I am no different than any other SWA pilot. SWAPA didn't do that, SWA did. Therefore, SWAPA global seniority should have no connection to the pay/benefits bump that SWA orchestrated.

I would love for you to make this statement in a hotel van with 15-30 year crews in it. I understand what you mean, but apparently you don't own seats nor do we. With this AIP we all have a tough pill to swallow. This is all in GK's hands. So if your future employer gives you a deal and say's "I bought your airplanes and you are more than welcome to fly form me", but under my conditions and what I think is fair. What are you going to say?