How can I drink the Brown Kool-aid if I cant hold my food down

[JT12345]

car,

don't talk about what u r willing to give up. Geezh, look where this is right now.

 

[JT12345]

I repost for your convenience my previous comment on the reality of today, not last Sep 2010:

Score,

The only realities are what the arbitrators would do to you and what they have done to others recently.

Stop making up a reality that does not exist and has no recent historical data to back it up.

 

[scoreboardII]

Please turn down the more than fair offer from SWA, good luck with that. I wish you nothing but the best in your future endevours.

 

[JT12345]

Please turn down the more than fair offer from SWA, good luck with that. I wish you nothing but the best in your future endevours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf3416Y4pwc

 

[PapaWoody]

Islandhoper is right on!! There is no reason that a SWA fo that was hired in 04 have 1400-1500 AAI guys behind them. SWA fos are stealing a seniority number that doesn't belong to them in the first place. They have no more worth than any other AAI guy! I think that most if not all AAI guys would be willing to give some just to keep the good relations going, but clearly SWAPA Doesn't feel the same way. SWA was flatlined with no growth! They had to buy an airline that showed promise or remain stagnate.

Dude, I was hired at SWA in early 2001, and with this deal I only have 1450 AAI guys behind me. Just one example of how far from reality your perceptions are. Let me know when you catch up.

PapaWoody

 

[desolo]

Why I'm Voting no!

This "deal" takes my seniority back from 44% to 75%. Even though I hold my capt's seat, my life becomes completely unknown for the next 10+ yrs. I will not accrue any seniority and move around "the most" junior bases and schedules since I probably won't hold ATL anymore. I guess I could downgrade (Wouldn't you like that huh?) This deal short of puts a gun in my head to do just that. The southwest pilot that takes my slot wouldn't have to deal with the 10+ years that I would have to. He/she would immediately have a descent seniority.

Pay is a perk (even though it starts in almost a year from now), but I do not think is worth the dramatic changes in commuting and scheduling for such a long time. It is really like the Devil making me rich in exchange for my soul and peace... I vote no to that. Voting yes, potentially commits 15 years of the 29 I have left to being "the junior guy". I refuse to forget that I chose AirTran because I believed my upgrade would come quickly, that we would grow at a fast pace, that we would go international and keep on expanding. I have never applied at SW. Many of you don't know AirTran, don't under-estimate it. It was a good Airline, with a good product, with customers that appreciated it. With pilots that had as much experience as ANY southwest pilot except for the shuttle commander you guys had... (Hugh Gibbs I think?)

I understand we are being acquired. But I also understand it is a necessity. If not, GK would have invested those 3.4 Bills. on internal growth. But he chose to acquire a good, profitable airline. That was the way to go. And this acquisition/merger will create the opportunities that southwest alone did not have. No matter how much money it had in the bank... So I vote no. Voting yes would mean forgetting all this things and accepting that my career has a lower value than any Southwest Captains career.

I respect and truly appreciate all the pay increases that the SW contract would afford me; but have this clear guys: Everything I gain in this merger is not taken and subtracted from a Southwest guy. Not the pay, not the seat. The gains you are expecting to have, are taken directly from an AirTran pilot: Seniority, job security, quality of life and capt seats... Not fair, not equitable.

I also fear this: If we accept this deal and live with it, who is to say that in 5 years from now GK will merge with Alaska... will those pilots forget their balls too? Or will they fight to be on top of my 75% at SW? Will swapa have a little more respect for them? Agree to take less or allow arbitration? This is my fight today! I will hold my cojones and vote no.

What do I think is fair in a nutshell: -Relative seniority (With a slight loss at the AirTran side due to SW top seniority protection (Those hired before AT existed), and a slight loss to offset a 3 year fence in ATL. Not more than 10-15% loss.
-Captains keep the seats period. (Bid per master seniority list.)
-Pay bonus for SW fo's that fly with a junior capt. (This is a great idea to reduce friction in the cockpit.)
-SW upgrade protection on sw retirements. Every time a SW guy retires, the slot is taken by the next SW guy down the list. End this rule sometime down a 5 year limit or so?
-At upgrade protection for our guys for the same amount of time...

OK, this is my yearly post. Flame away and explain me why this is not fair and equitable. Or how my thinking is of the planet.


Islanhoper[/QUote



Why don't we make you #1 in the combined list and forget about everybody else....

 

[jonjuan]

I also fear this: If we accept this deal and live with it, who is to say that in 5 years from now GK will merge with Alaska... will those pilots forget their balls too? Or will they fight to be on top of my 75% at SW?

Consolidation is far from over in the industry. Your point is glossed over by most.

 

[-9Capt]

Dude, I was hired at SWA in early 2001, and with this deal I only have 1450 AAI guys behind me.

PapaWoody

We have 1700 pilots and 1450 are junior to a 2001 hire. What a joke. This HAS to go to arbitration.

 

[400ADude]

We have 1700 pilots and 1450 are junior to a 2001 hire. What a joke. This HAS to go to arbitration.

Agree 1000% my friend.

 

[jball2]

Personally, I feel just as backed into a corner as anyone. I have the added bonus of living in Atlanta where my life could become complete hell if this goes bad. I have been a loyal and dedicated FO at SWA for 10 years and would be forced to commute for what appears to be another 9 years from ATL on my own airline who has a base there. I do enjoy a seniority bump in 9 years but other than that, I get zilch.

If I take whats behind door #2, I could be put junior to someone who hasn't put the time or the effort into this that I have (read less longevity) and be "roadblocked" for the rest of my career. I don't think that's fair either.

I busted my a$$ to get to SWA and to have someone tell me they deserve to be senior to me because they passed a captain check at 6 years is as insulting as anything some of our jewels have said. We ALL passed a captain checkride as a prerequisite to SWA so pardon us if we feel entitled to be senior to a junior AT pilot.

It is not about skill or professionalism. I ride on you guys just about every week and with about 2 exceptions in as many years, I think you guys are FANTASTIC. I just hate being told by a 33 year old captain that just upgraded that he fully expects to be ahead of me.

I hope this works out as I have tons of friends over there. I refuse to let bad blood come between us. I am giving it to God at this point! I have said my peace.

 

[JT12345]

Personally, I feel just as backed into a corner as anyone. I have the added bonus of living in Atlanta where my life could become complete hell if this goes bad. I have been a loyal and dedicated FO at SWA for 10 years and would be forced to commute for what appears to be another 9 years from ATL on my own airline who has a base there. I do enjoy a seniority bump in 9 years but other than that, I get zilch.

If I take whats behind door #2, I could be put junior to someone who hasn't put the time or the effort into this that I have (read less longevity) and be "roadblocked" for the rest of my career. I don't think that's fair either.

I busted my a$$ to get to SWA and to have someone tell me they deserve to be senior to me because they passed a captain check at 6 years is as insulting as anything some of our jewels have said. We ALL passed a captain checkride as a prerequisite to SWA so pardon us if we feel entitled to be senior to a junior AT pilot.

It is not about skill or professionalism. I ride on you guys just about every week and with about 2 exceptions in as many years, I think you guys are FANTASTIC. I just hate being told by a 33 year old captain that just upgraded that he fully expects to be ahead of me.

I hope this works out as I have tons of friends over there. I refuse to let bad blood come between us. I am giving it to God at this point! I have said my peace.

You have valid points J. I am not blind to that with all I have said on here the last few days.


One correction. The Captains in 2001 upgraded in less than two years. Not 6

 

[UALX727]

I think the biggest thing for our junior captains is the fact that we will all sit on reserve for 10-15 years. I don't know how to do that if you don't want to commute. It sounds like the staffing levels change monthly at each base, so if you do pick a junior base to live in, you can get bumped out? I figure if I'm going to have to sit reserve 10-15 years...at least tell me where I can take the family to not make it so bad. Sounds like in our case this is not possible.

 

[dicko]

Dude, I was hired at SWA in early 2001, and with this deal I only have 1450 AAI guys behind me. Just one example of how far from reality your perceptions are. Let me know when you catch up.

PapaWoody

Hey Papa,

You've only got 84% of our entire company junior to you. Not enough for you as a Junior CA ?

Perhaps some Grey Puopon will make it taste better

 

[jball2]

I wad talking about the newly minted 2005 doh captains.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[dicko]

I wad talking about the newly minted 2005 doh captains.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Is that a slight lisp I'm hearing ?

 

[Fubijaakr]

And making how much more for your trouble? Please, cry us a rvier.

Again with the pay raise argument. Why do you care how much they make? Is it reducing your pay?

Nope. Just a rationale to grab seniority and left seats.

Please turn down the more than fair offer from SWA, good luck with that. I wish you nothing but the best in your future endevours.

Obviously the SWAPA MEC wants this passed BAD. Why? Because they KNOW an arbitrator will NEVER lock AAI f/os out for a decade.

And, BTW, IF SWA and AS should ever merge...straight DoH. Period end of story.

Here's the arbitrator's decision (you heard it here first!):

1. No bump/no flush
2. Pre-1993 SWA hires listed.
3. Ratio the rest.

That's what's fair. Its a SENIORITY LIST INTEGRATION, not a pay list integration.

 

[jball2]

dicko-I was typing on my damn phone so cut me some slack.

 

[The Prussian]

:cartman:

Why I'm Voting no!

This "deal" takes my seniority back from 44% to 75%. Even though I hold my capt's seat, my life becomes completely unknown for the next 10+ yrs. I will not accrue any seniority and move around "the most" junior bases and schedules since I probably won't hold ATL anymore. I guess I could downgrade (Wouldn't you like that huh?) This deal short of puts a gun in my head to do just that. The southwest pilot that takes my slot wouldn't have to deal with the 10+ years that I would have to. He/she would immediately have a descent seniority.

Pay is a perk (even though it starts in almost a year from now), but I do not think is worth the dramatic changes in commuting and scheduling for such a long time. It is really like the Devil making me rich in exchange for my soul and peace... I vote no to that. Voting yes, potentially commits 15 years of the 29 I have left to being "the junior guy". I refuse to forget that I chose AirTran because I believed my upgrade would come quickly, that we would grow at a fast pace, that we would go international and keep on expanding. I have never applied at SW. Many of you don't know AirTran, don't under-estimate it. It was a good Airline, with a good product, with customers that appreciated it. With pilots that had as much experience as ANY southwest pilot except for the shuttle commander you guys had... (Hugh Gibbs I think?)

I understand we are being acquired. But I also understand it is a necessity. If not, GK would have invested those 3.4 Bills. on internal growth. But he chose to acquire a good, profitable airline. That was the way to go. And this acquisition/merger will create the opportunities that southwest alone did not have. No matter how much money it had in the bank... So I vote no. Voting yes would mean forgetting all this things and accepting that my career has a lower value than any Southwest Captains career.

I respect and truly appreciate all the pay increases that the SW contract would afford me; but have this clear guys: Everything I gain in this merger is not taken and subtracted from a Southwest guy. Not the pay, not the seat. The gains you are expecting to have, are taken directly from an AirTran pilot: Seniority, job security, quality of life and capt seats... Not fair, not equitable.

I also fear this: If we accept this deal and live with it, who is to say that in 5 years from now GK will merge with Alaska... will those pilots forget their balls too? Or will they fight to be on top of my 75% at SW? Will swapa have a little more respect for them? Agree to take less or allow arbitration? This is my fight today! I will hold my cojones and vote no.

What do I think is fair in a nutshell: -Relative seniority (With a slight loss at the AirTran side due to SW top seniority protection (Those hired before AT existed), and a slight loss to offset a 3 year fence in ATL. Not more than 10-15% loss.
-Captains keep the seats period. (Bid per master seniority list.)
-Pay bonus for SW fo's that fly with a junior capt. (This is a great idea to reduce friction in the cockpit.)
-SW upgrade protection on sw retirements. Every time a SW guy retires, the slot is taken by the next SW guy down the list. End this rule sometime down a 5 year limit or so?
-At upgrade protection for our guys for the same amount of time...

OK, this is my yearly post. Flame away and explain me why this is not fair and equitable. Or how my thinking is of the planet.


Islanhoper

I think you left out that ninety-some per cent strike vote. :cartman:

 

[oriondriver]

I think if this goes to arbitration the AT pilots could end up with both DOH and relative seniority. At least as long as GH is in business. After that who knows?? GK said something behind closed doors to the AT MC to make them negotiate in good faith..

 

[dicko]

dicko-I was typing on my damn phone so cut me some slack.

Jball.

It was a joke. Sorry, I was merely trying to amuse myself.

I could tell you were typing on your phone. My first clue was the Droid/tapatalk advertising at the bottom of every post.

I'll put more smiley faces in the future.

 

[jball2]

Thanks D- I have just worn myself out over this mess and my sense of humor has taken a crap. Thanks for injecting yours though!

 

[dicko]

:cartman:


I think you left out that ninety-some per cent strike vote. :cartman:

Give it some thought as you staple those voters. The law of unintended consequences is strong :cartman:

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

You Trannies realize nearly all of the junior FOs at SWA could have gone to Airtran many moons ago right? The majority of us could have gone over there before the majority of you ever got there. It was a much longer road to get to SWA and we had the resume, interview skills, and flight experience to do it. The majority of you guys didn't. Therefore you are there and we are here. For us not to get a huge bump in seniority because of this would be absolutely wrong. No matter what you think in your grand delusions.

I'm sure you'll flip and call me a conceited jerk, but it is somply the truth. It doesn't mean most of you aren't great people/pilots, but the reality is this is not an apples to apples comparison. You simply got hired at AAI (on average) well before you would have been competitive at SWA. Therefore, the combined list should reflect this truth.

 

[dicko]

You Trannies realize nearly all of the junior FOs at SWA could have gone to Airtran many moons ago right? The majority of us could have gone over there before the majority of you ever even got there. It was a much longer road to get to SWA and we had the resume, interview skills, and flight experience to do it. The majority of you guys didn't. Therefor you are there and we are here. For us not to get a huge bump in seniority because of this would be absolutely wrong. No matter what you think in your grand delusions.

Yet .... With all of your superior "resume, interview skills, and flight experience" you'll be swinging gear for an AirTran CA for a long time.

In your case, this pleases me. Nice post Kermit.

By the way, I banged Ms. Piggy.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You Trannies realize nearly all of the junior FOs at SWA could have gone to Airtran many moons ago right? The majority of us could have gone over there before the majority of you ever even got there. It was a much longer road to get to SWA and we had the resume, interview skills, and flight experience to do it. .

Oh, here we go with the arrogance again. You also had the money to buy your type rating so SWA would hire you. So, does that make SWA a PFT airline?

Is that where you want the discussion to go? Face it, you won the lottery when you got hired at SWA. Your vaunted resume, interview skills and flying skills are no better than any other part 121 airline pilot, so climb down off your ego.

Frankly, when I came into the airline business, SWA was no more than a glorified regional with pay to match. SWA was where you went when no one else would hire you.

Chew on that for awhile, Ace.

 

[oriondriver]

AT MC marching orders: PROTECT THE CAPTAIN SEATS. SACRIFICE ALL THE FIRST OFFICERS IF YOU HAVE TO BUT PROTECT THOSE CAPTAINS

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

Frankly, when I came into the airline business, SWA was no more than a glorified regional with pay to match. SWA was where you went when no one else would hire you.

Chew on that for awhile, Ace.

How about the last 10 years... Ace? That includes all of our FOs and the VAST majority of your list. Get it?

And BTW, if I pull gear for some of you guys, so be it. But "culture" really = "dollars," so before you go pooping in your diaper, think hard about what would happen to this acquisition if you are able to get a big seniority grab in arbitration. What would it do to Gary's magic "culture" [money] if every REAL SWA pilot got F-ed. Do you really think he's going to let that happen? Good luck. I really mean that!

 

[The Prussian]

Give it some thought as you staple those voters. The law of unintended consequences is strong :cartman:

and all I'm saying is...we have a lot of negative voters here, so put it all in context. The truth needs to be out there.

 

[Lear70]

By the way, I banged Ms. Piggy.

BWAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Come on, guys, you gotta admit... that was d*mn funny!

 

[JT12345]

How about the last 10 years... Ace? That includes all of our FOs and the VAST majority of your list. Get it?

And BTW, if I pull gear for some of you guys, so be it. But "culture" really = "dollars," so before you go pooping in your diaper, think hard about what would happen to this acquisition if you are able to get a big seniority grab in arbitration. What would it do to Gary's magic "culture" [money] if every REAL SWA pilot got F-ed. Do you really think he's going to let that happen? Good luck. I really mean that!

Yep,

And liquidating us cant happen overnight. Do u think we will not drag SWA in the toilet in the process.

Arbitration is a nuclear option. Right now there are missiles in Cuba and Turkey.

You have 6000 missiles and we have 1800. Just means u can blow it up 3 times more than us. But the fallout can kill everyone.