How can I drink the Brown Kool-aid if I cant hold my food down

[scoreboardII]

Why I'm Voting no!



OK, this is my yearly post. Flame away and explain me why this is not fair and equitable. Or how my thinking is of the planet.


Islanhoper

Ok, go with that, but be sure you realize the likely outcome of your vote, not your desired outcome, the most likely. Think long and hard about that angle.

You need to consider that your action is not taken in a vacuum, that TWO airline pilots groups career expections changed Sep 2010, not just yours. You can't extrapolate what you thought you were going to get staying at AT (which is gone) at the expense of the other pilot group. It doesn't work that way, no matter how hard you try to imagine.

 

[texman]

Why I'm Voting no!

This "deal" takes my seniority back from 44% to 75%. Even though I hold my capt's seat, my life becomes completely unknown for the next 10+ yrs. I will not accrue any seniority and move around "the most" junior bases and schedules since I probably won't hold ATL anymore. I guess I could downgrade (Wouldn't you like that huh?) This deal short of puts a gun in my head to do just that. The southwest pilot that takes my slot wouldn't have to deal with the 10+ years that I would have to. He/she would immediately have a descent seniority.

Pay is a perk (even though it starts in almost a year from now), but I do not think is worth the dramatic changes in commuting and scheduling for such a long time. It is really like the Devil making me rich in exchange for my soul and peace... I vote no to that. Voting yes, potentially commits 15 years of the 29 I have left to being "the junior guy". I refuse to forget that I chose AirTran because I believed my upgrade would come quickly, that we would grow at a fast pace, that we would go international and keep on expanding. I have never applied at SW. Many of you don't know AirTran, don't under-estimate it. It was a good Airline, with a good product, with customers that appreciated it. With pilots that had as much experience as ANY southwest pilot except for the shuttle commander you guys had... (Hugh Gibbs I think?)

I understand we are being acquired. But I also understand it is a necessity. If not, GK would have invested those 3.4 Bills. on internal growth. But he chose to acquire a good, profitable airline. That was the way to go. And this acquisition/merger will create the opportunities that southwest alone did not have. No matter how much money it had in the bank... So I vote no. Voting yes would mean forgetting all this things and accepting that my career has a lower value than any Southwest Captains career.

I respect and truly appreciate all the pay increases that the SW contract would afford me; but have this clear guys: Everything I gain in this merger is not taken and subtracted from a Southwest guy. Not the pay, not the seat. The gains you are expecting to have, are taken directly from an AirTran pilot: Seniority, job security, quality of life and capt seats... Not fair, not equitable.

I also fear this: If we accept this deal and live with it, who is to say that in 5 years from now GK will merge with Alaska... will those pilots forget their balls too? Or will they fight to be on top of my 75% at SW? Will swapa have a little more respect for them? Agree to take less or allow arbitration? This is my fight today! I will hold my cojones and vote no.

What do I think is fair in a nutshell: -Relative seniority (With a slight loss at the AirTran side due to SW top seniority protection (Those hired before AT existed), and a slight loss to offset a 3 year fence in ATL. Not more than 10-15% loss.
-Captains keep the seats period. (Bid per master seniority list.)
-Pay bonus for SW fo's that fly with a junior capt. (This is a great idea to reduce friction in the cockpit.)
-SW upgrade protection on sw retirements. Every time a SW guy retires, the slot is taken by the next SW guy down the list. End this rule sometime down a 5 year limit or so?
-At upgrade protection for our guys for the same amount of time...

OK, this is my yearly post. Flame away and explain me why this is not fair and equitable. Or how my thinking is of the planet.


Islanhoper

Your argument sounds great, but your group is young and if it went relative or DOH then the whole AT bunch will ride the top of the list in 11yrs for 15-20. Not going to happen. Even a arbitrator will see this disparity. GK wants a ten year fence not us. He knows he can control training cost this way. Look at what BB requested with F9. That 7 year fence had to do with cost and a CEO has the say so not the Arbitrator when it comes to running a company. If you want a quick upgrade go to AGLT, VA, Spirit, USAIR east.

 

[JT12345]

Islanhoper... your numbers may be wrong or mine.

800/1800 to 6400/7800 = 44.444 to 82.05, so u go from

44% from the top to 82% from the top. Mid senior to a SWA windfall or staple, however u wanna phrase it.

 

[-9Capt]

And making how much more for your trouble? Please, cry us a rvier.

How much more were DAL, UAL, UsAir, and AMR pilots making a decade ago? For all I know I'll be making less at WN than I am at FL in a few years. No guarantees except for this seniority number.

I did just over $220K in total compensation last year and have slightly north of 1 million in net worth and two and a half decades until retirement. The extra $30K isnt going to change a damn thing in my life.

This deal is neither fair nor equitable. I'll take my chances with arbitration.

 

[JT12345]

SWA pilots were worried about a 1 to 3 insertion of AAI guys on the list top to bottom.... losing 20% of their relative seniority.... and pre 1993 guys getting mixed in with AAI post 1993 hires.

This is soooooo ffffffff 'ing far from that. This is a arbitration reality for SWA pilots if we go there.

Instead Top 1997 staples to top. then 1 to 6 insertion of our AAI senior guys. AAI new hires at the bottom then SWA new guys then the 650 then a 1 to 1 insertion from the bottom up of AAI to SWA then 1 to 3 meeting in the middle at about 1 to 4.5. Making it a 1 to 6 insertion of AAI guys average to the list.

And lets not forget how the Colgan 1900, 3 year, 35k paid captains made out from arbitration. They got ahead of every Messaba Pinnacle 6 year FO. And Pinnacles ALPA offer was about SWAPAs (a windfall).

And like u said Senior FO and Junior reserve Capt pay is the about the same at SWA, so is this windfall SWA SLI worth the Junior Captain seat fences?

SWA guys wanting arbitration would be an insane move. Go back to the table if u r smart.

 

[JT12345]

And like u said many Junior reserve Captains can bid back to FO, but they wont...

not with this SLI. That would be insane

because they will be more junior than a SWA 07 hire. So it is far from a Senior SWA FO situation.

82-44 = a 38% far froma SWA Senior FO

AAI is getting feked real bad

 

[Clyde Frog]

.................

 

[-9Capt]

Yeah, but that's like being the backup Right Fielder for the Durham Bulls.

Canyon,
I noticed your avatar photo was taken from the right seat of a 737. I look forward to continuing this conversation when you fly as my FO, however something tells me you only run your mouth when sitting safely at your computer. pussie.

 

[carpediem]

Islandhoper is right on!! There is no reason that a SWA fo that was hired in 04 have 1400-1500 AAI guys behind them. SWA fos are stealing a seniority number that doesn't belong to them in the first place. They have no more worth than any other AAI guy! I think that most if not all AAI guys would be willing to give some just to keep the good relations going, but clearly SWAPA Doesn't feel the same way. SWA was flatlined with no growth! They had to buy an airline that showed promise or remain stagnate.

 

[scoreboardII]

How much more were DAL, UAL, UsAir, and AMR pilots making a decade ago? For all I know I'll be making less at WN than I am at FL in a few years. No guarantees except for this seniority number.

I did just over $220K in total compensation last year and have slightly north of 1 million in net worth and two and a half decades until retirement. The extra $30K isnt going to change a damn thing in my life.

This deal is neither fair nor equitable. I'll take my chances with arbitration.

I repost for your convenience my previous comment on the reality of today, not last Sep 2010:

You need to consider that your action is not taken in a vacuum, that TWO airline pilots groups career expections changed Sep 2010, not just yours. You can't extrapolate what you thought you were going to get staying at AT (which is gone) at the expense of the other pilot group. It doesn't work that way, no matter how hard you try to imagine.

You do what makes you feel good.