How can I drink the Brown Kool-aid if I cant hold my food down

[Luv2BFlyin]

True dat, but don't expect any tricks or smoke and mirrors from the language...it is pretty simple...AAI gets 851 (vs 815) retention slots basically forever (after 2020 our CBA will protect those seats)...in exchange we get seniority on a sliding scale...we get all future upgrades until the 2007 hire SWA FOs reach the 50% line...bottom 650 AAI FOs are stapled, post snapshot hires follow...

Remember the 717s are seat locked for 3 years...AAI pilots on the 717 will not be sitting much more reserve than they do now...

I'm on the 71 and haven't been on reserve since '05. With this deal, if there are enough 71 seats in ATL for me to stay, I'll be on reserve. I'll be on reserve as long as I'm on the 71 til I'm forced to the 73. While waiting for all the jr WN f/o's to upgrade, I'll probably continue to be on reserve and commuting. It could be 8-10 years of it. I'll be sitting a 100% more reserve than I am now, or have for the last 6 years . Sorry, but perceived "culture", stability, and pay raise just aren't evening it out for me. Still waiting for all the details.

AFA tricks, smoke, and mirrors, since two AAI principles are involved, there will be. I'm sure they are trying to impart their employee relations words of wisdom to GK as well. It would behoove SWAPA to pay close attention to them too.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Looks like Tex will be "calling me out" .

 

[shootr]

Or you could "downgrade" to senior ATL FO and make the same coin you're making now. Your choice. A choice I won't have unless enough of you make that choice.

 

[gobyebye]

Or you could "downgrade" to senior ATL FO and make the same coin you're making now. Your choice. A choice I won't have unless enough of you make that choice.

Exactly, if it's not about the money but all about quality of life, take the downgrade. Plenty of senior swa fo's will gladly take your spot. You have that option which makes this deal great for you. I truly can't believe there are any mid/junior level AT captains even making a slight hint of disappointment with their position in this deal. I am around the 4 year point at swa and will be flying with captains junior to me for at least ten years (over 100 of them junior to me). That's a difference of about $7-800,000 in career earnings over the next ten years that they are getting, if they choose to keep that seat. Keep complaining.

 

[-9Capt]

Looks like Tex will be "calling me out" .

I'm going from 11% at AirTran to 38% on the combined list and between two SW Capts hired years after me. Bring on the arbitrators, I'm voting no.

 

[Ty Webb]

Have you notice TY has not been on here much? He likes it so he is not saying much.

We don't have a final product yet to consider. I have been saying all along that we need to follow the process, and right now, that process is hammering out the final language and presenting it to the MEC.

From what I have seen and heard on both sides, I would be very surprised if this is the final agreement.

 

[shootr]

Bring on the arbitrators, I'm voting no.

Gotta stand up for yourself sometimes! Good on ya'...

 

[400ADude]

I'm going from 11% at AirTran to 38% on the combined list and between two SW Capts hired years after me. Bring on the arbitrators, I'm voting no.

Agree completely. It is the best option for you guys.

 

[DonVerita]

No, but come on. Is greed setting in over at AT now. Thats great! If I here one AT capt bytch about the deal I will be more and glad to call them out. AT is gone and a thing of the past. They are doing it out of support for the FO's, but will vote yes behind closed doors. They want their seat and SWA capt pay and benefits. Its just business for them. So is this acquisition. What else do they want? Have you notice TY has not been on here much? He likes it so he is not saying much.

It's not greed at all, so no need to try and frame it that way. It is about having the same seat and same QOL on the 140 aircraft that we brought with us to this deal. That's what "fair and equitable" means.

Yet some of your pilots seem to think that they have the rights to those seats and that our CA's should get displaced. They also think that their seniority is somehow valued higher than ours. Sorry. It doesn't work that way. We are both Major airlines. The pay/benefits bump is a product of becoming a SWA pilot. I never applied there. I didn't ask to be one. GK made me one with the stroke of a pen, so now I am no different than any other SWA pilot. SWAPA didn't do that, SWA did. Therefore, SWAPA global seniority should have no connection to the pay/benefits bump that SWA orchestrated.

 

[gobyebye]

It's not greed at all, so no need to try and frame it that way. It is about having the same seat and same QOL on the 140 aircraft that we brought with us to this deal. That's what "fair and equitable" means.

Yet some of your pilots seem to think that they have the rights to those seats and that our CA's should get displaced. They also think that their seniority is somehow valued higher than ours. Sorry. It doesn't work that way. We are both Major airlines. The pay/benefits bump is a product of becoming a SWA pilot. I never applied there. I didn't ask to be one. GK made me one with the stroke of a pen, so now I am no different than any other SWA pilot. SWAPA didn't do that, SWA did. Therefore, SWAPA global seniority should have no connection to the pay/benefits bump that SWA orchestrated.

Then why not push to operate the two airlines completely separately and keep your schedules and work rules and pay and benefits. You can't keep your quality of life and expect to get a nice pay raise too. That's not fair to the southwest pilots, has to be fair to both sides. Since both sides have pissed off people, maybe that means this is the most fair agreement we could have.

 

[canyonblue]

I'm going from 11% at AirTran ......

Yeah, but that's like being the backup Right Fielder for the Durham Bulls.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You can't keep your quality of life and expect to get a nice pay raise too. That's not fair to the southwest pilots

Now HERE is some twisted logic. Why do SWA pilots give a rat's butt about how much AAI pilots get paid? AAI paychecks aren't costing SWA pilots a nickle.

The ONLY reason is that its a red herring excuse for a seniority grab.

Stapling 650 AAI pilots AND restricting them from upgrade for a decade?

Give me a break.

Vote this POS down and give it to an arbitrator.

 

[shootr]

They are restricted merely by the fact that they've been stapled. There's no extra provision.

 

[oriondriver]

SWAPA BOD votes unanimously to send to membership and recommends a yes vote. Telling the members we can't do any better in negotiations and probably will do worse in Arby. If we do worse in arby stands to reason trannies do better. The big question Trannies have to ask themselves: What will "Dirty Garry Kellyhan" do? Did he fire five shots or six out of his 44 magnum when he laid down the law with the AT MC? Are you feeling lucky?... Well are you Trannies?

 

[Lear70]

They are restricted merely by the fact that they've been stapled. There's no extra provision.

Not exactly correct. Our top 150 F/O's weren't stapled.

The restriction that specifies that 2,600 of your F/O's will upgrade before ONE of our F/O's is allowed to upgrade is a provision that will keep some of our 150 senior F/O's who weren't stapled from upgrading in the event SWA grows as has been hinted at.

You may not believe the growth, and that's fine, but if you don't, why the 9-year provision for 2,600 of you to upgrade ahead of our senior F/O's? If there's not going to be any growth, and 1,000 or so of your F/O's are senior to our most senior F/O, then there's no need for that provision, is there?

The amusing thing is, you guys are screaming bloody murder about having to fly with a Captain who would be junior to you by Date of Hire. In 3-5 years, the shoe will be on the other foot. Our senior F/O's will have to fly with YOUR upgraded F/O's who are junior to OUR F/O's by Date of Hire. Wonder how many of you will say that's unfair when it happens...

Just an amusing anecdote. Carry on.

 

[sfomarc]

It's not greed at all, so no need to try and frame it that way. It is about having the same seat and same QOL on the 140 aircraft that we brought with us to this deal. That's what "fair and equitable" means.

Yet some of your pilots seem to think that they have the rights to those seats and that our CA's should get displaced. They also think that their seniority is somehow valued higher than ours. Sorry. It doesn't work that way. We are both Major airlines. The pay/benefits bump is a product of becoming a SWA pilot. I never applied there. I didn't ask to be one. GK made me one with the stroke of a pen, so now I am no different than any other SWA pilot. SWAPA didn't do that, SWA did. Therefore, SWAPA global seniority should have no connection to the pay/benefits bump that SWA orchestrated.

Does this mean you would rather stay an AT pilot and work under your current contract and have SWA operate AT as a separate entity?

Just asking

 

[islandhoper]

Why I'm Voting no!

This "deal" takes my seniority back from 44% to 75%. Even though I hold my capt's seat, my life becomes completely unknown for the next 10+ yrs. I will not accrue any seniority and move around "the most" junior bases and schedules since I probably won't hold ATL anymore. I guess I could downgrade (Wouldn't you like that huh?) This deal short of puts a gun in my head to do just that. The southwest pilot that takes my slot wouldn't have to deal with the 10+ years that I would have to. He/she would immediately have a descent seniority.

Pay is a perk (even though it starts in almost a year from now), but I do not think is worth the dramatic changes in commuting and scheduling for such a long time. It is really like the Devil making me rich in exchange for my soul and peace... I vote no to that. Voting yes, potentially commits 15 years of the 29 I have left to being "the junior guy". I refuse to forget that I chose AirTran because I believed my upgrade would come quickly, that we would grow at a fast pace, that we would go international and keep on expanding. I have never applied at SW. Many of you don't know AirTran, don't under-estimate it. It was a good Airline, with a good product, with customers that appreciated it. With pilots that had as much experience as ANY southwest pilot except for the shuttle commander you guys had... (Hugh Gibbs I think?)

I understand we are being acquired. But I also understand it is a necessity. If not, GK would have invested those 3.4 Bills. on internal growth. But he chose to acquire a good, profitable airline. That was the way to go. And this acquisition/merger will create the opportunities that southwest alone did not have. No matter how much money it had in the bank... So I vote no. Voting yes would mean forgetting all this things and accepting that my career has a lower value than any Southwest Captains career.

I respect and truly appreciate all the pay increases that the SW contract would afford me; but have this clear guys: Everything I gain in this merger is not taken and subtracted from a Southwest guy. Not the pay, not the seat. The gains you are expecting to have, are taken directly from an AirTran pilot: Seniority, job security, quality of life and capt seats... Not fair, not equitable.

I also fear this: If we accept this deal and live with it, who is to say that in 5 years from now GK will merge with Alaska... will those pilots forget their balls too? Or will they fight to be on top of my 75% at SW? Will swapa have a little more respect for them? Agree to take less or allow arbitration? This is my fight today! I will hold my cojones and vote no.

What do I think is fair in a nutshell: -Relative seniority (With a slight loss at the AirTran side due to SW top seniority protection (Those hired before AT existed), and a slight loss to offset a 3 year fence in ATL. Not more than 10-15% loss.
-Captains keep the seats period. (Bid per master seniority list.)
-Pay bonus for SW fo's that fly with a junior capt. (This is a great idea to reduce friction in the cockpit.)
-SW upgrade protection on sw retirements. Every time a SW guy retires, the slot is taken by the next SW guy down the list. End this rule sometime down a 5 year limit or so?
-At upgrade protection for our guys for the same amount of time...

OK, this is my yearly post. Flame away and explain me why this is not fair and equitable. Or how my thinking is of the planet.


Islanhoper

 

[scoreboardII]

I'm going from 11% at AirTran to 38% on the combined list and between two SW Capts hired years after me. Bring on the arbitrators, I'm voting no.

And making how much more for your trouble? Please, cry us a rvier.

 

[sfomarc]

Why I'm Voting no!

This "deal" takes my seniority back from 44% to 75%. Even though I hold my capt's seat, my life becomes completely unknown for the next 10+ yrs. I will not accrue any seniority and move around "the most" junior bases and schedules since I probably won't hold ATL anymore. I guess I could downgrade (Wouldn't you like that huh?) This deal short of puts a gun in my head to do just that. The southwest pilot that takes my slot wouldn't have to deal with the 10+ years that I would have to. He/she would immediately have a descent seniority.

Pay is a perk (even though it starts in almost a year from now), but I do not think is worth the dramatic changes in commuting and scheduling for such a long time. It is really like the Devil making me rich in exchange for my soul and peace... I vote no to that. Voting yes, potentially commits 15 years of the 29 I have left to being "the junior guy". I refuse to forget that I chose AirTran because I believed my upgrade would come quickly, that we would grow at a fast pace, that we would go international and keep on expanding. I have never applied at SW. Many of you don't know AirTran, don't under-estimate it. It was a good Airline, with a good product, with customers that appreciated it. With pilots that had as much experience as ANY southwest pilot except for the shuttle commander you guys had... (Hugh Gibbs I think?)

I understand we are being acquired. But I also understand it is a necessity. If not, GK would have invested those 3.4 Bills. on internal growth. But he chose to acquire a good, profitable airline. That was the way to go. And this acquisition/merger will create the opportunities that southwest alone did not have. No matter how much money it had in the bank... So I vote no. Voting yes would mean forgetting all this things and accepting that my career has a lower value than any Southwest Captains career.

I respect and truly appreciate all the pay increases that the SW contract would afford me; but have this clear guys: Everything I gain in this merger is not taken and subtracted from a Southwest guy. Not the pay, not the seat. The gains you are expecting to have, are taken directly from an AirTran pilot: Seniority, job security, quality of life and capt seats... Not fair, not equitable.

I also fear this: If we accept this deal and live with it, who is to say that in 5 years from now GK will merge with Alaska... will those pilots forget their balls too? Or will they fight to be on top of my 75% at SW? Will swapa have a little more respect for them? Agree to take less or allow arbitration? This is my fight today! I will hold my cojones and vote no.

What do I think is fair in a nutshell: -Relative seniority (With a slight loss at the AirTran side due to SW top seniority protection (Those hired before AT existed), and a slight loss to offset a 3 year fence in ATL. Not more than 10-15% loss.
-Captains keep the seats period. (Bid per master seniority list.)
-Pay bonus for SW fo's that fly with a junior capt. (This is a great idea to reduce friction in the cockpit.)
-SW upgrade protection on sw retirements. Every time a SW guy retires, the slot is taken by the next SW guy down the list. End this rule sometime down a 5 year limit or so?
-At upgrade protection for our guys for the same amount of time...

OK, this is my yearly post. Flame away and explain me why this is not fair and equitable. Or how my thinking is of the planet.


Islanhoper

Good post and good points. This will be interesting to watch.

 

[texman]

It's not greed at all, so no need to try and frame it that way. It is about having the same seat and same QOL on the 140 aircraft that we brought with us to this deal. That's what "fair and equitable" means.

Yet some of your pilots seem to think that they have the rights to those seats and that our CA's should get displaced. They also think that their seniority is somehow valued higher than ours. Sorry. It doesn't work that way. We are both Major airlines. The pay/benefits bump is a product of becoming a SWA pilot. I never applied there. I didn't ask to be one. GK made me one with the stroke of a pen, so now I am no different than any other SWA pilot. SWAPA didn't do that, SWA did. Therefore, SWAPA global seniority should have no connection to the pay/benefits bump that SWA orchestrated.

I would love for you to make this statement in a hotel van with 15-30 year crews in it. I understand what you mean, but apparently you don't own seats nor do we. With this AIP we all have a tough pill to swallow. This is all in GK's hands. So if your future employer gives you a deal and say's "I bought your airplanes and you are more than welcome to fly form me", but under my conditions and what I think is fair. What are you going to say?

 

[scoreboardII]

Why I'm Voting no!



OK, this is my yearly post. Flame away and explain me why this is not fair and equitable. Or how my thinking is of the planet.


Islanhoper

Ok, go with that, but be sure you realize the likely outcome of your vote, not your desired outcome, the most likely. Think long and hard about that angle.

You need to consider that your action is not taken in a vacuum, that TWO airline pilots groups career expections changed Sep 2010, not just yours. You can't extrapolate what you thought you were going to get staying at AT (which is gone) at the expense of the other pilot group. It doesn't work that way, no matter how hard you try to imagine.

 

[texman]

Why I'm Voting no!

This "deal" takes my seniority back from 44% to 75%. Even though I hold my capt's seat, my life becomes completely unknown for the next 10+ yrs. I will not accrue any seniority and move around "the most" junior bases and schedules since I probably won't hold ATL anymore. I guess I could downgrade (Wouldn't you like that huh?) This deal short of puts a gun in my head to do just that. The southwest pilot that takes my slot wouldn't have to deal with the 10+ years that I would have to. He/she would immediately have a descent seniority.

Pay is a perk (even though it starts in almost a year from now), but I do not think is worth the dramatic changes in commuting and scheduling for such a long time. It is really like the Devil making me rich in exchange for my soul and peace... I vote no to that. Voting yes, potentially commits 15 years of the 29 I have left to being "the junior guy". I refuse to forget that I chose AirTran because I believed my upgrade would come quickly, that we would grow at a fast pace, that we would go international and keep on expanding. I have never applied at SW. Many of you don't know AirTran, don't under-estimate it. It was a good Airline, with a good product, with customers that appreciated it. With pilots that had as much experience as ANY southwest pilot except for the shuttle commander you guys had... (Hugh Gibbs I think?)

I understand we are being acquired. But I also understand it is a necessity. If not, GK would have invested those 3.4 Bills. on internal growth. But he chose to acquire a good, profitable airline. That was the way to go. And this acquisition/merger will create the opportunities that southwest alone did not have. No matter how much money it had in the bank... So I vote no. Voting yes would mean forgetting all this things and accepting that my career has a lower value than any Southwest Captains career.

I respect and truly appreciate all the pay increases that the SW contract would afford me; but have this clear guys: Everything I gain in this merger is not taken and subtracted from a Southwest guy. Not the pay, not the seat. The gains you are expecting to have, are taken directly from an AirTran pilot: Seniority, job security, quality of life and capt seats... Not fair, not equitable.

I also fear this: If we accept this deal and live with it, who is to say that in 5 years from now GK will merge with Alaska... will those pilots forget their balls too? Or will they fight to be on top of my 75% at SW? Will swapa have a little more respect for them? Agree to take less or allow arbitration? This is my fight today! I will hold my cojones and vote no.

What do I think is fair in a nutshell: -Relative seniority (With a slight loss at the AirTran side due to SW top seniority protection (Those hired before AT existed), and a slight loss to offset a 3 year fence in ATL. Not more than 10-15% loss.
-Captains keep the seats period. (Bid per master seniority list.)
-Pay bonus for SW fo's that fly with a junior capt. (This is a great idea to reduce friction in the cockpit.)
-SW upgrade protection on sw retirements. Every time a SW guy retires, the slot is taken by the next SW guy down the list. End this rule sometime down a 5 year limit or so?
-At upgrade protection for our guys for the same amount of time...

OK, this is my yearly post. Flame away and explain me why this is not fair and equitable. Or how my thinking is of the planet.


Islanhoper

Your argument sounds great, but your group is young and if it went relative or DOH then the whole AT bunch will ride the top of the list in 11yrs for 15-20. Not going to happen. Even a arbitrator will see this disparity. GK wants a ten year fence not us. He knows he can control training cost this way. Look at what BB requested with F9. That 7 year fence had to do with cost and a CEO has the say so not the Arbitrator when it comes to running a company. If you want a quick upgrade go to AGLT, VA, Spirit, USAIR east.

 

[JT12345]

Islanhoper... your numbers may be wrong or mine.

800/1800 to 6400/7800 = 44.444 to 82.05, so u go from

44% from the top to 82% from the top. Mid senior to a SWA windfall or staple, however u wanna phrase it.

 

[-9Capt]

And making how much more for your trouble? Please, cry us a rvier.

How much more were DAL, UAL, UsAir, and AMR pilots making a decade ago? For all I know I'll be making less at WN than I am at FL in a few years. No guarantees except for this seniority number.

I did just over $220K in total compensation last year and have slightly north of 1 million in net worth and two and a half decades until retirement. The extra $30K isnt going to change a damn thing in my life.

This deal is neither fair nor equitable. I'll take my chances with arbitration.

 

[JT12345]

SWA pilots were worried about a 1 to 3 insertion of AAI guys on the list top to bottom.... losing 20% of their relative seniority.... and pre 1993 guys getting mixed in with AAI post 1993 hires.

This is soooooo ffffffff 'ing far from that. This is a arbitration reality for SWA pilots if we go there.

Instead Top 1997 staples to top. then 1 to 6 insertion of our AAI senior guys. AAI new hires at the bottom then SWA new guys then the 650 then a 1 to 1 insertion from the bottom up of AAI to SWA then 1 to 3 meeting in the middle at about 1 to 4.5. Making it a 1 to 6 insertion of AAI guys average to the list.

And lets not forget how the Colgan 1900, 3 year, 35k paid captains made out from arbitration. They got ahead of every Messaba Pinnacle 6 year FO. And Pinnacles ALPA offer was about SWAPAs (a windfall).

And like u said Senior FO and Junior reserve Capt pay is the about the same at SWA, so is this windfall SWA SLI worth the Junior Captain seat fences?

SWA guys wanting arbitration would be an insane move. Go back to the table if u r smart.

 

[JT12345]

And like u said many Junior reserve Captains can bid back to FO, but they wont...

not with this SLI. That would be insane

because they will be more junior than a SWA 07 hire. So it is far from a Senior SWA FO situation.

82-44 = a 38% far froma SWA Senior FO

AAI is getting feked real bad

 

[Clyde Frog]

.................

 

[-9Capt]

Yeah, but that's like being the backup Right Fielder for the Durham Bulls.

Canyon,
I noticed your avatar photo was taken from the right seat of a 737. I look forward to continuing this conversation when you fly as my FO, however something tells me you only run your mouth when sitting safely at your computer. pussie.

 

[carpediem]

Islandhoper is right on!! There is no reason that a SWA fo that was hired in 04 have 1400-1500 AAI guys behind them. SWA fos are stealing a seniority number that doesn't belong to them in the first place. They have no more worth than any other AAI guy! I think that most if not all AAI guys would be willing to give some just to keep the good relations going, but clearly SWAPA Doesn't feel the same way. SWA was flatlined with no growth! They had to buy an airline that showed promise or remain stagnate.

 

[scoreboardII]

How much more were DAL, UAL, UsAir, and AMR pilots making a decade ago? For all I know I'll be making less at WN than I am at FL in a few years. No guarantees except for this seniority number.

I did just over $220K in total compensation last year and have slightly north of 1 million in net worth and two and a half decades until retirement. The extra $30K isnt going to change a damn thing in my life.

This deal is neither fair nor equitable. I'll take my chances with arbitration.

I repost for your convenience my previous comment on the reality of today, not last Sep 2010:

You need to consider that your action is not taken in a vacuum, that TWO airline pilots groups career expections changed Sep 2010, not just yours. You can't extrapolate what you thought you were going to get staying at AT (which is gone) at the expense of the other pilot group. It doesn't work that way, no matter how hard you try to imagine.

You do what makes you feel good.