hot airplanes

[better up here]

thats 20+ years other people have been flying that old t-prop without whining.............call al gore and blame it on global warming

big al digs the props, better per hour burn...

 

[OzBushWhacker]

Flew on a CR2 the other day. Hot as hell on the ground, so thought the APU is deferred, it'll cool off in the air. So we all sat there sweating our collective a$$ off waiting to get in the air. Low and behold we get into the air and half way through the flight the f/o tells us the packs are toast!

Glad to get the ride but wondering how often this is done? Even our crusty t-prop has pretty decent ram air.

 

[bobbyice]

I have been looking on the osha web site for information on refusing to work in hot working conditions, but I can't find a temperature to call it quits.

Doe's anyone have any information or know a web site that could help me out?

Thank you for your time.

^^^another vote for Hillary.

 

[legalalien]

The maximum ambient temperature for takeoff and landing is ISA+35C at OH, I suspect that's a Bombardier number. In ATL that would be 43C which is 110F. You're not going to see that number very often which is probably why it's not a memory item.

You are talking about two different things. In our POH (at ASA) it says that we have to have either conditioned air or a pack runnning if the cabin temp is above 30c - this is to keep the efis tubes in temp limits. (I think that is correct I have the page marked but I am at home and my POH is at the airport!)

 

[captainv]

Yes, OSHA will be of no help to you, but you don't need OSHA. All you need is a pair of something called "balls." Amazing things. They give you the ability to tell CMR management to go f&$k themselves, just like I told PCL management and MX several times when they told me to fly airplanes that shouldn't have been flown. My personal limit on APU-inop airplanes was an OAT of 80 degrees if no air was hooked up to the airplane at the gate, or 85 degrees if air was hooked up until right before leaving. Anything warmer than that, and the airplane wasn't moving until either the APU was fixed or until the temp cooled down. You don't need any fancy OSHA regulation or anything else. You're the PIC. Act like it.

Actually, I'm not the PIC (my upgrade class was canceled, to boot), and it wasn't my flight. The scenario I described came from an article a chief pilot wrote in a company magazine some time ago. The underlying message was, Thou Shalt Go Flying.

Of course, as the PIC, you can refuse. What I'm saying is that at Comair, if you say the aircraft is unsafe, they will come after you, so be ready for that. As such, it might be easier on you if you say you're canceling because it's so hot that you don't feel well. If you say you want to cancel because it's unsafe for the pax, they'll fight you. The MEL doesn't list any conditions for cabin temps for a deferred APU. They'll safe it's uncomfortable, not unsafe. Or, if the chiefs tell you to fly, you could make a PA at the gate and let the passengers decide for themselves...

Good for ASA that they have a limit. I wish Comair was as proactive.

 

[rtmcfi]

Recheck your limitations. Somewhere in the AFM or your manuals should be something about cabin temps higher than 30c requiring packs to be operative, or conditioned air hooked up and working.

 

[Regul8r]

When a pax dies or goes to the hospital, that is a death or accident that happened on your airplane, and could wind up following you, via your faa file (not to mention your conscience) for life.

Bull$hit that passenger died on your plane. You "talk" with the medical examiner to ensure that the individual died after they got off the plane.

 

[WTF]

Older people and Heat

Any of you ever sit at a picnic or family gathering and see maybe your Grandma, Aunt, or any other elderly relative get too hot. Heat really takes a toll quick on an elderly person that has been up for 45 hours before a flight, through security and about to sit at 6-7000ft elevation for a few hours. Thats what I think of. If I could allow a family member to sit in the back, and wait it out until we "cool off at altitude" .

 

[Turtlesfly]

For those of you saying, "quit your whining it was worse in my previous airplane. . . . "

. . . the passengers don't care. The pax don't care if your previous plane was a metro, a saab, a 1900 or whatever. Heck, didn't we all (most everybody) start off in aircraft with no a/c. Our perspective is different - we open the door for our a/c.

The 85-year-old in the back of the jet in Florida in the summer doesn't give a &hit what you last flew - the issue is that it needs to be cooler NOW.

 

[DrewBlows]

You are talking about two different things. In our POH (at ASA) it says that we have to have either conditioned air or a pack runnning if the cabin temp is above 30c - this is to keep the efis tubes in temp limits. (I think that is correct I have the page marked but I am at home and my POH is at the airport!)

I've never seen that. It could exist, but it's not in the limitations section. The only thing I can find is the 5 minute limit of running on battery power only, since the display fans run on AC power.

 

[Jmoney]

Section 8

At ASA-it is in the Hot Weather section. Reads like a system limitation to me. The purpose is to keep the screens from overtemping and shutting down on you at an inconvenient time. It is too bad everyone does not enforce this. I guarantee it will lead to some trouble one day.
-Don't let our sorry mgmt steamroll you-people really can die from this silliness, and when that happens, it will make the crew look bad-mgmt will deny ever having talked to you-watch how fast they get amnesia!
-J

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Forgot the quote about arguing on the internet. . .

 

[suupah]

Well if you are the captain and the aircraft in your judgement is to hot to operate safely then you refuse the airplane. If the company gives you any grief then just give a little jingle to the faa and explain your predicament. Fact of the matter is, if a pax dies on your airplane from heat it is your A$$ for not refusing. At ASA if the cabin temp is above 30c then we can't fly the CRJ due to efis heating problems. Should be the same at all CRJ carriers as I believe this comes from bombardier.

HA HA HA HA!!! 30c HA!

Yesterday the cabin was 37c with no air flow. good times. the cockpit was prolly over 40.... good stuff

 

[McNugget]

I have been looking on the osha web site for information on refusing to work in hot working conditions, but I can't find a temperature to call it quits.

Doe's anyone have any information or know a web site that could help me out?

Thank you for your time.

Oh, sorry, I thought this was one of those threats about which is the best airplane: CRJ or ERJ?

 

[rogerwilcoout]

i don't think you'll get too far with OSHA. we had a captain try to refuse an airplane because the APU was inop on a hot day, (at a previous airline, he'd had a passenger die of heatstroke) but it didn't work. in the company's view, it's uncomfortable, not unsafe. and the MEL says it's fine. Still, I've heard ASA pilots can refuse an aircraft with no APU if the cabin temp is too high, but Comair will tell you to go flying.

I suppose if you felt really strongly about it, you could call in sick - say the heat was making you feel faint or something. but at the end of the day, you're just going to have to deal with it.

Another fine example of Comair.........

 

[XJohXJ]

........

 

[vectorvictor]

For those of you saying, "quit your whining it was worse in my previous airplane. . . . "

. . . the passengers don't care. The pax don't care if your previous plane was a metro, a saab, a 1900 or whatever. Heck, didn't we all (most everybody) start off in aircraft with no a/c. Our perspective is different - we open the door for our a/c.

The 85-year-old in the back of the jet in Florida in the summer doesn't give a &hit what you last flew - the issue is that it needs to be cooler NOW.

You are 100% correct! You have a responsibility to the people in the back for their SAFETY and COMFORT. It's not your fault the air conditioning is broke, that's maintenance's problem. If enough flights were canned instead of getting pushed off the gate by sheep who wouldn't say anything but "YES SIR MR. DISPATCHER SIR....IT'LL COOL OFF AT ALTITUDE......" then low and behold Maintenance would figure out how to fix the A/C and get it to work more reliably. I blame the PIC's who accept the airplanes and the FO's that go along for the ride. NOTHING gets me closer to a mental breakdown than receiving an airplane in the middle of a 90 plus degree day with a deferred pack or Vapor cycle system. COWARDS! Grow a pair and act like the PIC's that used to fly around aiplanes without A/C.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I am shocked to see some of you saying to quit crying about hot airplanes. I figured this would be anonymous in favor of not taking them.

Those of you who say you should take it have never done a hour from boarding to takeoff on a 90 degree ATL day, with the cabin and cockpit at 40C. It's unhealthy and ridiculous. It takes a fully loaded CRJ-200 sans APU about 20 minutes to hit 40C on taxi out on a hot day in ATL. That's a typical money line from push back to takeoff.

To the one who said it's not an OSHA case, the difference between us and outdoor workers, is they can take a break and cool off. And they rarely are subjected to temps above 30C. When they are, they're required to break every 15 minutes. We are trapped in that 40C tube for hours. And think about the passengers, who may be elderly, in poor health, or pregnant. It's totally unsafe.

It's a captain decision not to take hot airplanes. Grow a pair and just say no.

 

[yaya]

I sorta skimmed thru this thread. Here is my question.... did any of you who were dispatched to fly a hot airplane call your alpa reps for guidance? If so, what did they say? This should fall under "Taking it back"... If you accept the airplane, it is because you want to accept it, not because of some management pressure. YOU are the one responsible for the pax at an insurance liability of 5 mil per pax. so what is that on the emb.... 250 million dollars you are responsible for...as a pilot.... on that airplane, every flight... Keep that in mind next time you sign in. Just because something is MELable, does not mean it is safe.

 

[Spinplate]

Flying a Pressurized twin out of Phoenix with no A/C in the summer! Thats a drag!! You'll lose 10lbs in a day doing that sheet!! 115degrees outside....probably 120+ inside the cabin......... Im spoiled now! Arnold said it best! STOP WHINING!