hot airplanes

[greyskyracer]

I have been looking on the osha web site for information on refusing to work in hot working conditions, but I can't find a temperature to call it quits.

Doe's anyone have any information or know a web site that could help me out?

Thank you for your time.

 

[chuychanga]

You can't be serious. I'm not saying we have nothing to complain about, this industry has lots of room for improvement, but seriously... hot airplanes? Does the sweat make your panties bunch up too easily or something?

You know there are cars out there with no a/c right? You know some people dig ditches in the sun all day? Did you never flight instruct through the summer or fly freight in an airplane without ac? Sure there are improvements to be made in this industry, but in general, being a regional airline pilot is the easiest job I've ever had.

I hope your post was just a lame joke or something that went over my head because of all the things we have to bitch about that is about the most pathetic one I've heard. I mean, really?

 

[cjcpilot]

Well, when passengers begin to start fainting ... its a good sign that the airplane's too hot.

 

[greyskyracer]

You fly an EMB 145 which probably has a working APU over 90% of the time. I fly a 20+ year old turbo prop with a disgruntled mx group.

We are not allowed to start an engine during push back in LGA and without an APU I've seen the temperature climb to over 100 degrees.

The passengers and crew should not be subjected to this especially infants and elderly.

With all do respect I think we have different ideas of hot airplanes.

 

[captainv]

i don't think you'll get too far with OSHA. we had a captain try to refuse an airplane because the APU was inop on a hot day, (at a previous airline, he'd had a passenger die of heatstroke) but it didn't work. in the company's view, it's uncomfortable, not unsafe. and the MEL says it's fine. Still, I've heard ASA pilots can refuse an aircraft with no APU if the cabin temp is too high, but Comair will tell you to go flying.

I suppose if you felt really strongly about it, you could call in sick - say the heat was making you feel faint or something. but at the end of the day, you're just going to have to deal with it.

 

[outtahere]

Well if you are the captain and the aircraft in your judgement is to hot to operate safely then you refuse the airplane. If the company gives you any grief then just give a little jingle to the faa and explain your predicament. Fact of the matter is, if a pax dies on your airplane from heat it is your A$$ for not refusing. At ASA if the cabin temp is above 30c then we can't fly the CRJ due to efis heating problems. Should be the same at all CRJ carriers as I believe this comes from bombardier.

 

[dingo222]

thats 20+ years other people have been flying that old t-prop without whining.............call al gore and blame it on global warming

 

[shamrock]

You can't be serious. I'm not saying we have nothing to complain about, this industry has lots of room for improvement, but seriously... hot airplanes? Does the sweat make your panties bunch up too easily or something?

You know there are cars out there with no a/c right? You know some people dig ditches in the sun all day? Did you never flight instruct through the summer or fly freight in an airplane without ac? Sure there are improvements to be made in this industry, but in general, being a regional airline pilot is the easiest job I've ever had.

I hope your post was just a lame joke or something that went over my head because of all the things we have to bitch about that is about the most pathetic one I've heard. I mean, really?

You're ASA management's wet dream.

 

[DGdaPilot]

Try doing 5 to 6 leg days in an old ATR in the Caribbean with no prop brake, APU, and ill-functioning air carts. Been there, done that. Us jet guys have it good compared to that.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Any of you ever fly a Metro in the summer? In the desert?

:crying:


AF

 

[XJohXJ]

You can't be serious. I'm not saying we have nothing to complain about, this industry has lots of room for improvement, but seriously... hot airplanes? Does the sweat make your panties bunch up too easily or something?

You know there are cars out there with no a/c right? You know some people dig ditches in the sun all day? Did you never flight instruct through the summer or fly freight in an airplane without ac? Sure there are improvements to be made in this industry, but in general, being a regional airline pilot is the easiest job I've ever had.

I hope your post was just a lame joke or something that went over my head because of all the things we have to bitch about that is about the most pathetic one I've heard. I mean, really?

Every summer, passengers die on overheated airplanes. Maybe not many, maybe just one or two, but it happens. Last summer, we had a pax leave on an ambulance from one of our Saabs when the cabin temp got somewhere above the 115F range.

When a pax dies or goes to the hospital, that is a death or accident that happened on your airplane, and could wind up following you, via your faa file (not to mention your conscience) for life.

Of course, you're probably above such concerns. Happy flying.

 

[greyskyracer]

Every summer, passengers die on overheated airplanes. Maybe not many, maybe just one or two, but it happens. Last summer, we had a pax leave on an ambulance from one of our Saabs when the cabin temp got somewhere above the 115F range.

When a pax dies or goes to the hospital, that is a death or accident that happened on your airplane, and could wind up following you, via your faa file (not to mention your conscience) for life.

Of course, you're probably above such concerns. Happy flying.

Thank you

 

[FreightPup]

Any of you ever fly a Metro in the summer? In the desert?

:crying:


AF

Ha Ha,
That line sounds like it should have come from the movie, "Airplane"!

 

[CA1900]

thats 20+ years other people have been flying that old t-prop without whining....

Speak for yourself. I've repeatedly grounded 1900s for inoperative vapor cycle air conditioning systems. All the ACM-supplied air goes to the floor, which does nothing for cooling the airplane down.

Had one a few summers ago, with a nice dark blue top, sit in the hot sun on a 93-degree day for 3 hours before I got to it. I'd estimate the interior was about 150 degrees, and I'm not exaggerating. The cockpit was even hotter. (You know it's hot when you're cooled by the 93-degree air rushing in.)

Talked to the ground crew, said I'd need to run the right engine (which has the air conditioner) for at least 15 minutes to cool down the cabin, which was fine. Fired it up, and the air conditioning wasn't working. The air vents (which recirculate the air, routed over the [inoperative] evaporator coils), were blowing jets of super-hot air, like little hair dryers. I shut it down, went inside, told the gate we had a mechanical and I'd elaborate once I got maintenance on the way.

For the two hours it took to fix it, the gate agents and the company were both badgering me to MEL it and go. "It'll cool off at altitude," they said.

"Half of the passengers will be dead before takeoff, and it's too hot for the pilots to operate this machine safely. This is a question of safety, not comfort, and I'm not doing it. If you can find someone who will, be my guest; I'll take his plane."

The problem turned out to be a tripped blower motor circuit breaker in the engine nacelle, which was reset and worked properly for the rest of the day. I had the passengers out after 10 minutes of running the air, and as soon as they got on, several of them thanked me for getting the air working before we left.


The company's job is to move the airplane. The crew's job is to stop it, if necessary, in the interests of safety.

 

[Jmoney]

Too hot...

Think of it this way-if a 95 yr old lady in the back dies of heat stroke, who is getting sued? You are! Gongrats! If you are stupid enough to expose yourself to this kind of civil liability, you deserve to have all your stuff taken.
This is not supposed to be an endurance contest, we are supposed to consider the Safety & comfort of the passengers. If they tell me I have to fly a broke-ass APU plane around and jeopardize safety, I will glady call the POI and ask his opinion on the matter.
ASA had to evacuate a few years ago because of a gear collapse. The crew did everything right, and every single one of them was sued. Nothing came of it in that case, but if granny kicks it because it is 105 in the cabin, the lawyers will get to sue your happy butt off-and they WILL win because you were stupid enough to let yourself get painted into that corner!

 

[Steve]

Speak for yourself. I've repeatedly grounded 1900s for inoperative vapor cycle air conditioning systems. All the ACM-supplied air goes to the floor, which does nothing for cooling the airplane down.

Had one a few summers ago, with a nice dark blue top, sit in the hot sun on a 93-degree day for 3 hours before I got to it. I'd estimate the interior was about 150 degrees, and I'm not exaggerating. The cockpit was even hotter. (You know it's hot when you're cooled by the 93-degree air rushing in.)

Talked to the ground crew, said I'd need to run the right engine (which has the air conditioner) for at least 15 minutes to cool down the cabin, which was fine. Fired it up, and the air conditioning wasn't working. The air vents (which recirculate the air, routed over the [inoperative] evaporator coils), were blowing jets of super-hot air, like little hair dryers. I shut it down, went inside, told the gate we had a mechanical and I'd elaborate once I got maintenance on the way.

For the two hours it took to fix it, the gate agents and the company were both badgering me to MEL it and go. "It'll cool off at altitude," they said.

"Half of the passengers will be dead before takeoff, and it's too hot for the pilots to operate this machine safely. This is a question of safety, not comfort, and I'm not doing it. If you can find someone who will, be my guest; I'll take his plane."

The problem turned out to be a tripped blower motor circuit breaker in the engine nacelle, which was reset and worked properly for the rest of the day. I had the passengers out after 10 minutes of running the air, and as soon as they got on, several of them thanked me for getting the air working before we left.


The company's job is to move the airplane. The crew's job is to stop it, if necessary, in the interests of safety.

Well done. Thank you

 

[Thedude]

Any of you ever fly a Metro in the summer? In the desert?

Yup, sure have......we put a thermometer in the cockpit once and it read over 140 F.


But then again I wasn't worried that my hair gel would melt either.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I don't know what all you younguns are whining about. Hell son, back when we were on the super connie it used to regularly get over 200F in the cabin. We had a passenger die about every third leg. The flight attendant would strip down to bra and panties, and the passengers wore double breasted suits.

The only logical attitude is since we had hot airplanes in the 50's it shoud be O.K. now right?

 

[PCL_128]

i don't think you'll get too far with OSHA. we had a captain try to refuse an airplane because the APU was inop on a hot day, (at a previous airline, he'd had a passenger die of heatstroke) but it didn't work. in the company's view, it's uncomfortable, not unsafe. and the MEL says it's fine. Still, I've heard ASA pilots can refuse an aircraft with no APU if the cabin temp is too high, but Comair will tell you to go flying.

I suppose if you felt really strongly about it, you could call in sick - say the heat was making you feel faint or something. but at the end of the day, you're just going to have to deal with it.

Yes, OSHA will be of no help to you, but you don't need OSHA. All you need is a pair of something called "balls." Amazing things. They give you the ability to tell CMR management to go f&$k themselves, just like I told PCL management and MX several times when they told me to fly airplanes that shouldn't have been flown. My personal limit on APU-inop airplanes was an OAT of 80 degrees if no air was hooked up to the airplane at the gate, or 85 degrees if air was hooked up until right before leaving. Anything warmer than that, and the airplane wasn't moving until either the APU was fixed or until the temp cooled down. You don't need any fancy OSHA regulation or anything else. You're the PIC. Act like it.

 

[DrewBlows]

At ASA if the cabin temp is above 30c then we can't fly the CRJ due to efis heating problems. Should be the same at all CRJ carriers as I believe this comes from bombardier.

The maximum ambient temperature for takeoff and landing is ISA+35C at OH, I suspect that's a Bombardier number. In ATL that would be 43C which is 110F. You're not going to see that number very often which is probably why it's not a memory item.

 

[better up here]

thats 20+ years other people have been flying that old t-prop without whining.............call al gore and blame it on global warming

big al digs the props, better per hour burn...

 

[OzBushWhacker]

Flew on a CR2 the other day. Hot as hell on the ground, so thought the APU is deferred, it'll cool off in the air. So we all sat there sweating our collective a$$ off waiting to get in the air. Low and behold we get into the air and half way through the flight the f/o tells us the packs are toast!

Glad to get the ride but wondering how often this is done? Even our crusty t-prop has pretty decent ram air.

 

[bobbyice]

I have been looking on the osha web site for information on refusing to work in hot working conditions, but I can't find a temperature to call it quits.

Doe's anyone have any information or know a web site that could help me out?

Thank you for your time.

^^^another vote for Hillary.

 

[legalalien]

The maximum ambient temperature for takeoff and landing is ISA+35C at OH, I suspect that's a Bombardier number. In ATL that would be 43C which is 110F. You're not going to see that number very often which is probably why it's not a memory item.

You are talking about two different things. In our POH (at ASA) it says that we have to have either conditioned air or a pack runnning if the cabin temp is above 30c - this is to keep the efis tubes in temp limits. (I think that is correct I have the page marked but I am at home and my POH is at the airport!)

 

[captainv]

Yes, OSHA will be of no help to you, but you don't need OSHA. All you need is a pair of something called "balls." Amazing things. They give you the ability to tell CMR management to go f&$k themselves, just like I told PCL management and MX several times when they told me to fly airplanes that shouldn't have been flown. My personal limit on APU-inop airplanes was an OAT of 80 degrees if no air was hooked up to the airplane at the gate, or 85 degrees if air was hooked up until right before leaving. Anything warmer than that, and the airplane wasn't moving until either the APU was fixed or until the temp cooled down. You don't need any fancy OSHA regulation or anything else. You're the PIC. Act like it.

Actually, I'm not the PIC (my upgrade class was canceled, to boot), and it wasn't my flight. The scenario I described came from an article a chief pilot wrote in a company magazine some time ago. The underlying message was, Thou Shalt Go Flying.

Of course, as the PIC, you can refuse. What I'm saying is that at Comair, if you say the aircraft is unsafe, they will come after you, so be ready for that. As such, it might be easier on you if you say you're canceling because it's so hot that you don't feel well. If you say you want to cancel because it's unsafe for the pax, they'll fight you. The MEL doesn't list any conditions for cabin temps for a deferred APU. They'll safe it's uncomfortable, not unsafe. Or, if the chiefs tell you to fly, you could make a PA at the gate and let the passengers decide for themselves...

Good for ASA that they have a limit. I wish Comair was as proactive.

 

[rtmcfi]

Recheck your limitations. Somewhere in the AFM or your manuals should be something about cabin temps higher than 30c requiring packs to be operative, or conditioned air hooked up and working.

 

[Regul8r]

When a pax dies or goes to the hospital, that is a death or accident that happened on your airplane, and could wind up following you, via your faa file (not to mention your conscience) for life.

Bull$hit that passenger died on your plane. You "talk" with the medical examiner to ensure that the individual died after they got off the plane.

 

[WTF]

Older people and Heat

Any of you ever sit at a picnic or family gathering and see maybe your Grandma, Aunt, or any other elderly relative get too hot. Heat really takes a toll quick on an elderly person that has been up for 45 hours before a flight, through security and about to sit at 6-7000ft elevation for a few hours. Thats what I think of. If I could allow a family member to sit in the back, and wait it out until we "cool off at altitude" .

 

[Turtlesfly]

For those of you saying, "quit your whining it was worse in my previous airplane. . . . "

. . . the passengers don't care. The pax don't care if your previous plane was a metro, a saab, a 1900 or whatever. Heck, didn't we all (most everybody) start off in aircraft with no a/c. Our perspective is different - we open the door for our a/c.

The 85-year-old in the back of the jet in Florida in the summer doesn't give a &hit what you last flew - the issue is that it needs to be cooler NOW.

 

[DrewBlows]

You are talking about two different things. In our POH (at ASA) it says that we have to have either conditioned air or a pack runnning if the cabin temp is above 30c - this is to keep the efis tubes in temp limits. (I think that is correct I have the page marked but I am at home and my POH is at the airport!)

I've never seen that. It could exist, but it's not in the limitations section. The only thing I can find is the 5 minute limit of running on battery power only, since the display fans run on AC power.