Hey USAPA, Why So Quiet?

[TWA Dude]

So let me get this straight. A group of people with the same common interests organized successfully to have the leverage to get what they feel is in their best interests and DID so. And yet they somehow are "anti-union".

I doubt you can be set straight but I'll try. ALPA Merger Policy prevents one pilot group from taking advantage of another. By voting in a new union for the sole purpose of utilizing their greater size they are trying to take advantage of us in the worst way. If that's your version of unionism you should hang out with some Longshoremen and try to learn something.

 

[BeCareful!]

Basically, I think it boils down to this:

Many of the east FOs were captains at one point. In their minds nothing will be fair until they are back in the left seat. They believe that they are still captains on temporary displacement to FO. They want the seniority integration to reflect their positions as they were in the 1990s.

They don't care how they get back to the left seat as long as they do it...even if it means screwing over the West guys. The fact that they were going out of business means nothing to them. They think they are the center of the universe and damn anyone who disagrees.

They make statements like "I've sacrificed for this company for 20 years now and I deserve something!". You did get something in return...you still have a job. My favorite was "we've been getting screwed for so long now its your turn!".

They think that it is selfish and greedy of me to expect them to live up to a completely fair integration because it may keep them from getting back to the left seat as quickly as they feel they deserve.

Does this pretty much sum it up?

No, not at all. Your characterization of east pilots doesn't coincide with my experience at all. (You harp on and on about the "left seat." Most of the guys I know here couldn't care less what seat they are in.) There is a completely different view of all this, and your little window of "reality" is filtered by your life experience. You and your fellow west keyboard commandos here on FI.com are vastly out of touch; you make such grandiose assumptions and spew such tough talk....but that doesn't make your reality any more real.

I know you think you've been terribly wronged, but the attitude you guys display here is sooo offensive. And yeah, I know, you'll all probably have some really cool retort concerning our attitude, but it makes no difference. We all have lives to live, bills to pay, job security concerns.

And reference job security, the story of USAir's demise has been told so many times, for so many years, by so many entities that got it all wrong, there is simply no basis for saying that you guys belong on top because you "saved" USAir. Look at the loss DAL just posted. Does that ring true for anyone? Did they really "lose" $6billion? No, they are showing it as a loss in the company's market value. It's accounting, and it's like statistics in that you can make it look any number of ways....whatever suits the need of the BOD. Do you guys really think that GE, after investing so much and working so hard to keep U afloat, was going to let it go? No way! Lakefield and Bronner and yes, Parker, joined the companies with outside capital. Had it not been AWA, it would have been some other airline. Alaska and Frontier perhaps. Who knows? The point is, we could all be a lot better off because of this combo.

Now, and this is something that I just know won't go over well with you all-knowing, AWA-FI.com-card-carrying pontificators....but....here go's: Many independent unions have done pretty well with their airline managements. Regardless of why you think ALPA is gone, regardless of how that came to be, I wish five of you would wake up and realize that if we start working together, now, we can negotiate with management and each other and come up with a solution to all of this.

As soon as you stop blowing beer out your nose (laughing), consider contacting USAPA reference their request for west Reps (not the cushy job it was with ALPA, but a worthy cause.) Consider that the vast majority of us in the east wish you guys no ill-will....nothing like venom you guys post here on FI.com. Our fight was with ALPA, and it's over. ALPA may not have caused you guys the grief it caused us over the years (although you did try to oust them, right?), but they simply had to go. Their behavior over the past several months only solidified that view for so many pilots, even guys at NWA, UAL, DAL. I can't count the number of pilots from other airlines who were horrified at ALPA's save-our-FPL-and-dues-revenue campaign and the accompanying lies and misinformation.

Anyway: What's done is done. What we all do from here on is what's important.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I talked to a few U guys, and the big picture for the rational folks was that it wasn't an attempt to get the Nic aware changed, as it was to do "something" to get rid of the union they hated so much.

However, the folks I talked to did concede that it was their own MEC that f**** for the last couple of decades.

Hate is not a logical methodology to find a mutual and progressive win win for all involved.

Hate is for the weak and emotionally ignorant.

Combined with conceding that thier own MEC was thier problem.

Who is responsible for their own MEC? ALPA National? GWB? Cactus pilots? Doug?

How'd the AAA MEC get into power and remain there? MIL coup? Illegal force?

 

[BeCareful!]

OK, right....yeah, I figured that sort of lame little west reply was forthcoming.

So, would you like to reference where USAPA has mentioned or even implied using a stapler? Or, conversely, do you want to hide behind stupid, meaningless statements like "USAPAs goal is crystal clear to everybody."??

 

[PositiveRate]

Anyway: What's done is done. What we all do from here on is what's important.

That was some funny stuff. Kind of like binding means binding right? You've fallen hook, line and sinker for your own BS. To ask us to move on is just about the most hypocritical thing you can do...it really is your way or the highway out East isn't it?

If alpa simply had to go as you put it, then it's time to sleep in the G damned bed you made for yourself.

To expect ANY america west guys to help out your cause which was founded on sticking it to us with DOH is hillarious. There isn't any moving on and if you want to look for blame, look in the mirror buddy.

2723 of your pilots made a huge mistake. They voted for change for change's sake without a backup plan.

 

[PositiveRate]

So, would you like to reference where USAPA has mentioned or even implied using a stapler?

Umm, FO Bradford came to PHX and one of the first slides on his pathetic excuse for a presentation was DOH with lifetime fences for PHX/LAS. DOH alone is a staple for over 80% of our pilot group, regardless of restrictions. You can pretty it up however you want, but it's a staple job plain and simple.

This is a new company buddy. You guys seem to have completely disgarded that fact along the way.

 

[Dr. Rumack]

Not only did they vote for change without a backup plan but they eliminated the only hope they/we had for a decent seniority integration with a possible merger pAArtner. Get the feeling this might get a bit ugly? TWADUDE, would you have 3 seniority #'s on the new list?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Becareful-

It might be in your best interest to start performing. The vote is over. You got your union..

However, now you got to show all what you can do...

Until you put up.......

 

[Bringupthebird]

USAPA has no credibility. The west pilots will not do business witha group that has reneged on it's committments time and time again.

If USAPA had taken the time to recruit west pilots for their input during the crafting of their C&BL's, and had not staked their entire future on overturning the Nic award to the detriment of the the west pilots, perhaps you'd get a better response than merely a recommendation for where you can stuff your olive branch.

There will never be labor peace. I truly believe this. Noone has a vested interest in mending fences with folks they don't trust, and the east feels "might makes right" and will continue to see where stubborness takes them.

 

[PositiveRate]

Many independent unions have done pretty well with their airline managements. Regardless of why you think ALPA is gone, regardless of how that came to be, I wish five of you would wake up and realize that if we start working together, now, we can negotiate with management and each other and come up with a solution to all of this.

Umm, we could have negotiated with each other at any point in the last three years under ALPA. Now you've pissed away all the protection ALPA provided for our individual line-flying lives as well as in future consolidation and you think this is an opportunity to negotiate? Not only are you off your rocker, but you've fallen off the porch!

None of the other independant unions were founded as a work around to binding arbitration. USAPA's foundation is devisive by nature and disregards the AWA voice entirely. You can't just say 'regardless of how that came to be'. It doesn't work that way. It is patently incorrect to compare a SWAPA or APA to USAPA. Only one was created to divide and conquer.

In fact, your lawyer said...'another word for tyranny of the majority is DEMOCRACY'. Hmm, those are some seriously unpleasant words that unmask usapa's true intent - railroad the West via simple majority.

Again...you made this bed. Spin it however you'd like, but it is what it is. Good goes around ;-)

 

[Jet41]

Just wondering why I haven't heard anything from you lately....

Where's my... Who's my... When Will...

• Loss of License Insurance
• Disability Insurance
• Aeromedical Handler
• Who Are My Reps
• When Will The Negotiating Committee Meet
• What is the company's response to Nic
• What about a new lanyard now that mine's out of style.

Didn't you guys say you were ready to "hit the ground runnin'? That all my questions would be answered? That I'd have a stronger union more focused on the USAirways pilot's needs?

Hello? Where'd everybody go, Pickleballin'?

WTF... Over.

If I had to guess they to busy celibrating dumping ALPA and have better things to do than waste thier time replying to worthless posts.

 

[TWA Dude]

TWADUDE, would you have 3 seniority #'s on the new list?

Uhhgg!

 

[Fly-n-hi]

No, not at all. Your characterization of east pilots doesn't coincide with my experience at all. (You harp on and on about the "left seat." Most of the guys I know here couldn't care less what seat they are in.)

Then why fight the Nic award?

I do care. Let me upgrade and you can stay in the right seat.

BTW, it's the East guys who keep harping "on on on" about upgrades. It was your own MEC who said that he delayed the implimetation of the Nic award so that as many East guys could upgrade as possible. Do I need to go through these boards and copy all the comments??? It will use up several pages, I'm sure.

There is a completely different view of all this, and your little window of "reality" is filtered by your life experience. You and your fellow west keyboard commandos here on FI.com are vastly out of touch; you make such grandiose assumptions and spew such tough talk....but that doesn't make your reality any more real.

Ooooo you really got me there.

I know you think you've been terribly wronged, but the attitude you guys display here is sooo offensive. And yeah, I know, you'll all probably have some really cool retort concerning our attitude, but it makes no difference. We all have lives to live, bills to pay, job security concerns.

Our attitudes are offensive??? What are you smokin?

And reference job security, the story of USAir's demise has been told so many times, for so many years, by so many entities that got it all wrong, there is simply no basis for saying that you guys belong on top because you "saved" USAir.

Can you read? Show me where I said we should be on the top. If we wanted that we would have demanded that all AAA pilots be stapled to the bottom of our list. We never asked for that. We just want a fair integration. DOH is not a fair integration.

Look at the loss DAL just posted. Does that ring true for anyone? Did they really "lose" $6billion? No, they are showing it as a loss in the company's market value. It's accounting, and it's like statistics in that you can make it look any number of ways....whatever suits the need of the BOD.

You go ahead and keep telling yourself that but the fact remains that US Airways was about to close its doors.

Do you guys really think that GE, after investing so much and working so hard to keep U afloat, was going to let it go?

Yes. At some point you've gotta cut your losses.

No way! Lakefield and Bronner and yes, Parker, joined the companies with outside capital. Had it not been AWA, it would have been some other airline. Alaska and Frontier perhaps. Who knows? The point is, we could all be a lot better off because of this combo.

Nope. The rest of the industry was waiting to piecemeal your gates and routes in PHL. No one else showed any interest in US Airways as a whole.

Now, and this is something that I just know won't go over well with you all-knowing, AWA-FI.com-card-carrying pontificators....but....here go's: Many independent unions have done pretty well with their airline managements. Regardless of why you think ALPA is gone, regardless of how that came to be, I wish five of you would wake up and realize that if we start working together, now, we can negotiate with management and each other and come up with a solution to all of this.

I just blew beer out of my nose from laughing so hard while reading this. Most independent unions are actually unified.

As soon as you stop blowing beer out your nose (laughing), consider contacting USAPA reference their request for west Reps (not the cushy job it was with ALPA, but a worthy cause.) Consider that the vast majority of us in the east wish you guys no ill-will....nothing like venom you guys post here on FI.com.

Yeah. Now that you mention it...the AAA guys that walk through the terminal in PHX and LAS are always soooo friendly to us...especially the ones with the yellow lanyrds on.

Our fight was with ALPA, and it's over. ALPA may not have caused you guys the grief it caused us over the years (although you did try to oust them, right?), but they simply had to go. Their behavior over the past several months only solidified that view for so many pilots, even guys at NWA, UAL, DAL. I can't count the number of pilots from other airlines who were horrified at ALPA's save-our-FPL-and-dues-revenue campaign and the accompanying lies and misinformation.

I was never a big ALPA fan. But at least they weren't created to slit my throat.

Anyway: What's done is done. What we all do from here on is what's important.

I completely agree.



BTW, that was one of the most useless, USAPA koolaid responses I've read.

 

[FR8mastr]

Here is a thought.... The West should be thanking USAPA. Here is the scenario.
US is split up, East and West go to separate airlines.

Under the West's favorite "merger policy" in the event of a merger now. The West pilots career expectations are not the brightest. The West claims total stagnation, low pay and no hope for the future. Company is losing money, economy is in bad shape, and no airplanes on order. So what would Nic. do to the West in a merger with someone now?
I do not wish that on anyone but I was just throwing it out there.
OK back to your name calling fest.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Here is a thought.... The West should be thanking USAPA. Here is the scenario.
US is split up, East and West go to separate airlines.

Under the West's favorite "merger policy" in the event of a merger now. The West pilots career expectations are not the brightest. The West claims total stagnation, low pay and no hope for the future. Company is losing money, economy is in bad shape, and no airplanes on order. So what would Nic. do to the West in a merger with someone now?
I do not wish that on anyone but I was just throwing it out there.
OK back to your name calling fest.

There is no money to be made by splitting the airline up on an east-west basis. The most successful domestic airline hasn't had to buy anyone to get what they want. International airlines have what they want and the little that US can provide isn't worth the headache.

US's only hope was to pull the two groups together and build a powerful stand-alone airline, but Bradford and the USAPA crowd torpedoed that. Oh, well they're young enough to pull another career out of their hat, right?